oldcpu

51 minutes ago, WebGuy said:

Thank you for your answer. 

However, I assume that being on LTR means I can't apply for Thai citizenship. Right?

 

If the above is right, I have a dilemma i.e. I can stay on non-immigrant O marriage visa, pay taxes and have the WP for 3 consecutive years and then apply for Thai citizenship or go for LTR and to not pay for taxes but not being eligible to apply for Thai citizenship. Did I get it right? 

I take from that your goal is to become a Thai citizen.  That might incur even more tax on you, dependent on the DTA of your source company income.

I don't think LTR would delay any effort to become a Thai citizen.  If that is a 'blocking' point/concern for you, just pick up the phone and call BoI and ask them.  The experience of many (from the LTR visa thread on Aseannow) is that Boi are very responsive to phone call queries.

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I also said that a blanket statement from the RD along the lines of " All pensions / income already taxed " will be exempt, is all that is needed to shut this crap up, which would have been in the Ocr - Dec 2023 period.

 

The silence from the RD, tells me something different is about to land 😀😀

 

 

There is no change re taxation of foreign sourced Pensions remitted to Thailand in year of income. 

So RD has then been silent going back to 2017 at least  ( I didn't look at tax forms before then).

Frankly,  the RD silence suggests such DTA exempt income is not to be included in a Thai tax form. .. as has been the case for years.

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

-- and Thailand has secondary taxation authority, when the home country doesn't exercise its primary taxation authority. This doesn't in any way compromise the spirit of a DTA, since the principal of no double taxation is still adhered to.

Not in every DTA case. 

Some DTA make it clear that only the source country of a pension can tax such pension. In such case, per DTA. Thailand has no secondary tax authority for the specified pension.

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I didn't mention a tax form in the that entire comment.

True. But the omission of an exempt Section in the tax form for DTA exempt income is part of the discussion of an opposing view to yours.

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I stated what the Revenue Code, Section 40 and Part ( 1 ) says
 

I also mused, that if Pensions were not assessable income in Thailand, why are they even covered in DTA's, no need apparently, as Pensions are supposedly non assessable for tax purposes in Thailand.

 

I have also said on numerous occasions, I will await the updated paperwork from the RD before I make a decision on whether to file or not.

That's fair.  I structured my finances with a similar motive in mind.

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I have also said on numerous occasions, that I would not be surprised to see something like a PND 192 Foreign Income Form, make an appearance when the updated paperwork is issued and uploaded to the RD website.

Interesting.  I would be surprised. But given TIT if it happens it won't be the 1st time that I have been surprised. 

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Well that would be fairly simple to explain. Things only changed as of the 01 Jan 2024, and will continue to evolve on an annual basis.

Not really ... foreign Pensions for tax residents of Thailand have been around for years. It has always been the case that if a Thai tax resident remits income into Thailand in the year earned it is taxable,  unless a DTA says otherwise. 

So IF ( per your view) it's always been that such foreign Pensions should be included on a Thai tax form (if remitted to Thailand in the year of earning) there should be a place to list such pensions as exempt per specific DTA.

, ...yet going back to 2017 Thai tax forms ( I looked at each one from 2017 to 2023) there is no place to list exempt pension income per a DTA.

There is more to this. This is not 100% new.

So again I ask, why has Thailand deliberately omitted a place to list as an exemption such DTA tax exempt income on the Thai tax forms,  going back years?

Why?

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Nothing.

 

RD Code Section 40 : Assessable income

 

RD Code Section 40 Part ( 1 ) States Pensions.

 

Got that ? Do you need to go and read it for yourself ?

 

Right, now that you agree.

 

If Pensions were not assessable in Thailand for tax purposes. Why would you even put them in a DTA ?
 

But we do know, that due to DTA's  ( Not the Revenue Code ) that Pensions fall mainly into 2 Categories.

 

1 Pensions that are exempt Thai Taxation, and only taxable in issuing Country.

 

2. Pensions that are subject to Primary  / Secondary taxation rights, which may be taxed in thailand.

 

The Revenue Code states that pensions are assessable income

 

DTA's dictate whether that Pension is taxable in Thailand.

 

DTA's do not change the fact that according to Revenue Code, Section 40, Part ( 1 ) Pensions are assessable income.

 

So if your remitted Pension is above the 120k / 220k baht filing threshold, you should be filing a tax return.

 

What happened in the past, is no guarantee that the same will happen in the future.

If I understand your opinion, you believe that a Thai tax resident's foreign pension must be included on a Thai tax form ( if pension remitted to Thailand), even if a specific DTA with the source country of that pension has Thailand agreement that the pension is exempt Thailand tax. ie Thailand has no rights to tax.

Please explain then why there is NO place on the 2023 Thailand tax forms ( neither Thai nor English language forms) for such income to be listed as tax exempt per the DTA that Thailand signed up to?

Why would Thailand deliberately omit such?

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

Are you concerned at all about the financial information you had to supply?  I would think you have now laid your cards on the table. 

 As others have noted - when applying for the LTR, one does not have to lay all their cards on the table.

Only the card's needed to get the LTR per BoI requirements.

Perhaps only those who 'borderline qualify' for the LTR had to lay all their cards on the table.

1 hour ago, Nik23 said:

where do i have to sign up in order to do a Personal Income tax?  Link?

 

You need to get a tax ID number first. 

I suppose you could just show up at your local Revenue Department (RD) office, with all your needed paperwork , and try to file your tax return then, but i suspect you would be missing some paperwork and have to do one or more trips back home to get the paperwork.

You would need to bring paperwork to both (1) get a tax ID number, and (2) supporting financial info for your tax return.

37 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Unless someone successfully claims a deduction for a foreign pension as A provident fund, then assume this is only for THE provident fund, that being the legal definition of a Thai fund legally registered with the SEC.

 

The Provident Fund is a fund established for voluntary participation between companies and employees, serving as a source of funds for employees in cases such as resignation,　retirement, illness, or death. Governed by the Provident Fund Act, the Thai government　regulates the Provident Fund, ensuring the rights of employees within the fund.
(Source: Krungsri Asset)

 

The deduction or provident fund on the PN90 is for contributions TO the fund, not withdrawals FROM the fund.  Regardless, if a provident fund is a pension, that is taxable unless exempted by DTA. 

 

 

I note the word "established for voluntary participation between companies and employees, serving as a source of funds for employees in cases such as resignation,　retirement, .." ....

Is that not what a pension is?   Is that ONLY for Thai Provident Fund and not for a foreigners (because it has to be governed by the Thai government, while a foreign pension is not governed by the Thai government)?

I find this interesting.

MR.126(36) notes:

Quote

(36) Any money or benefit received by employees from a provident fund under the law governing provident funds as follows:
(a) any money or benefit received by an employee when he or she leaves employment due to ... or the leaving occurs after the employee is 55 years old.

Again, recall MR.126(36) is the footnote-12 of tax code section-42(17) which lists tax exemptions that are not  to be included in a tax calculation.

This brings to mind where someone(?) / more than one(?) ,...  on AsianNow went to their local RD and were told that if they were on a pension then they had no tax obligation (ie their pension income not to be included in a tax calculation).  Of course - others went to their local RD and were told their pensions were DEFINITELY taxable (which happens to be my view - if not excluded in a DTA).

I assume then, looking at the quote of your post, that this refers to only Thai person's pensions governed by the Thai government , and not foreigner's pensions (that are governed by the foreigner's government)?

That seems a bit unfair. ...  But I guess This is Thaliand.

48 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

Regarding the reference to Ministerial Regulations in the Revenue Code, there are only two that are specified in a footnote to category (17):

 

Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:

(17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial Regulations.¹²

¹²M.R. No. 126, No. 201 B.E. 2539

 

Ministerial Regulation No. 126, (B.E. 2509) Issued under the Revenue Code Regarding Revenue Tax Exemption

Clause 2 The following incomes shall be prescribed as incomes under (17) of Section 42 of the Revenue Code as amended by the Revenue Code Amendment Act (No. 10), B.E. 2496 :

 

95 types of exempted income are listed with descriptions; the English translation appears on the RD website here:

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/kormor/eng/MR_126.pdf

 

The only other Ministerial Regulation referred to in Section 42 (17) is M.R. No. 201 (B.E. 2539) covering exemption from personal income tax on compensation from transfer of ownership in real estate in the Pa Sak Basin Development Project.

I saw those foot notes before, but did not spend much time going through them. 

This time, I also asked myself, must the Ministerial Regulations be confined to those listed in a footnote? 

...  and I also asked,   if subsequent to Ministerial Regulation No.126 (B.E.2509) there were newer Ministerial interpretations and/or Royal Decrees, must they also be included as a consideration in Tax code section 42(17).    I speculate the answer is yes, ... but then speculation is just that ... speculation. 

Anyway ,those 95 !! exemptions in MR.126 was an interesting skim through, albeit  I was getting very fatigued toward the end.

That Ministerial Directive 126 does not state its exact date that I could decipher.  I note already some of its has been repealed by Ministerial Regulation No.307 (B.E.2558) - and that in particular was reflected in that recent unofficial translation (the link to which you posted).

While that specific repeal is not relevant to our discussion, it makes me wonder, if other Ministerial Regulations exist  that have repealed or added relevant sections for Ministerial Regulation No.126 , but not yet reflected in the latest MR-126 version ? And could that also be the case for recent Ministerial interpretations/instructions (such as POR-161/162) and the Royal Decree 743 (LTR).

Anyway, I note in the MR-126 you linked:

Item(36) in MR-126 regarding provident funds appear to apply to certain types of pensions.  It does not state these provident funds must only be Thailand provident funds. There other sections more specific to pensions.  But I speculate this could apply to certain pensions also flagged as tax exempt in DTAs.

I thus speculate with Item(36) in Ministerial Regulation No.126 (B.E.2509) as called up by Section-42(17) of the Thai tax code, one could make a legitimate argument that exempt income (such as that specified in certain DTAs) are not to be included in a Thai tax calculation.

Slightly off topic, in MR No.126, I noted Item(62) on condominium sales and exemptions if person is properly registered ( I suspect registered via yellow book registration) was an interesting surprise to me in regards to limited tax exemption when selling the condo (although it only goes as far as the 'appraised' value which is typically less than the sale value.

While scrolling through the Ministerial Regulations I also stumbled across this wording on Double Taxation Agreements (DTAs) on the Thai RD web site:  https://www.rd.go.th/english/21973.html  

In particular I note the words: 

Quote

 

Each DTA may prescribe different methods of elimination of double taxation of a person by the resident country:

(1)   Exemption method

The country of residence does not tax the income which according to the DTA is taxed in the source country.

(2)   Credit method

The resident country retains the right to tax the income which was already taxed in the source country. 

 

So clearly there are incomes from foreign countries, that are exempt Thailand taxation by the "exemption method" to avoid double taxation (and are NOT to be confused with incomes from foreign countries where double taxation is prevented by the "credit method").

25 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Then you will have no dramas posting where it says they are non- assessable

 

Don't confuse only taxable in XYZ, as being non assessable.

 

Pensions according to the revenue code Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories

 

Quote

Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.

 

...and as I pointed out section 42 of the Thai tax code goes one step further than section 40 and it lists income that is not to be included in the Thai tax calculation. Item-17 in section-42 may infact be very relevant.

Only quoting section 40 is IMHO cherry picking.

On 1/18/2025 at 7:19 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

The bigger problem with him, with X and with people like Trump is that too many people listen to them and think they are the smart guys, and they must all know the truth and tell us the truth.

 

 Exactly.

But rather than point a finger at the stupidity (?) those who listen to Trump's spins or lies, or point a finger at the stupidity of those who listen to Musk when Musk is trolling, ... no ...  instead we read of many who ignore the stupidity of such blind followers. 

18 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Nope, I am awaiting the updated paperwork, that the RD said would be forthcoming.

 

I have said it at least a dozen times, there must be a very good reason why the 2024 filing forms have not been uploaded here

 

Seems strange that there is forms from 2017 - 23, yet no forms for 2024.

 

I agree its puzzling.  In fact, if one looks at the Thai page, the tax year 2024 Thai language and even the Thai 2025 Thai language tax year forms are available.

On the English language page only up to year 2023 English language tax forms.

I did try to compare the 2023 Thai and 2023 English forms (where I translated the 2023 Thai forms to English with Google translate).  A large part of them are identical, but not 100% identical.  The differences thou, did not appear to me to be related to exempt income. Nothing in English language Thai tax form form 2023 for  DTAs (nor LTR visa which was present in 2023). 

I suspect many of us are curious, and watching this with interest.

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Perhaps you could show your workings from the Revenue Code or a DTA that backs up point 4.

Thai tax code Section 42(17).

Just now, The Cyclist said:

 

That was the only question I had last year. Not through the Forum I got an answer that I thought was correct. Not taxable in Thailand, no need to file.

 

I have changed my mind on this, and believe that Pensions ( at least ) will have to be filed. Other incomes I have avoided as they do not concern me.

 

 

Again best wishes.  Given there is no place on the tax return to list those pensions as exempt, and you likely (??) have to use a place in the tax return form not specifically intended for a DTA exemption, ... i am curious as to how the tax return will be received and initially evaluated by the RD. My guess is you will have questions  from them, or possibly get an incorrect tax assessment by them. And then one is into the appeal process.

But my guess could be wrong. It won't be the first time I have been wrong. After all, This is Thailand.

17 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I'm not in any rush, I am close to the small RD Office, probably 3 times a week, and there is still plenty of tome for the updated paperwork to appear and go and file, or not bother, as the case me be.

 

All my paperwork is already filed in an A4 envelope, it will either get filed in a drawer at home, or transferred onto official paperwork and handed in to the RD office.

 

Couldn't really care either way. Whichever way I go, they wont be getting any tax off me 😀😀

Best wishes in how this works out for you.

We all need to look at our own financial situation and decide what is the best way forward.

I knew that I would owe no tax to Thailand as I was under the LTR-WP visa, and my Canadian pension income was exclusively taxable by Canada (per the Canada-Thai DTA). 

However the 'big' question for me back in late 2023 was looking ahead,  would I (in over a years time) need  to file a tax return for upcoming 2024 tax year??  A quick look at the Thai tax return forms (from year 2017 to 2022 and later-2023 - yes I quickly looked at them all) was I could find no place for exemptions for my non-taxable (by Thailand) Canadian pensions, nor any place for income exemption from an LTR-WP visa holder (where one would expect the 2023 tax year form to have such). 

That is why I then read section-42 of the Thai tax code with interest (which states income not to be included in a Thailand tax calculation) and are leaning toward that section indicating such income is not to be included in the Thai tax calculation.

However - I also am no tax expert.  So I decided to bring no income into Thailand for tax year 2024.

Then my Thai wife (who was equally puzzled as myself) tried to get a tax-ID for me (she filed on-line, and it went to Bangkok-RD, and was forwarded to the provincial RD where I live).  A provincial RD official phoned my wife and I advised since I was not bringing income into Thailand (for tax year 2024) and since I had no Thai income,  I did not need a TIN and did not need to file a Thai tax return for 2024 tax year.  When my wife asked more questions, the official could not answer such, said he would call back, and he never did.

I do think every expat should seriously look at their own tax situation, and make a judgement call as to what they should do.

For certain, the current tax forms (year 2023 in English, and also google translation of Thai year 2024 tax form) have no place on them that I could find, where one can list income exempt due to a DTA (such as your case), nor income exempt due to Por.161/162, nor income exempt due to the LTR.  Which is why I believe Thai tax code section-42(17) is very relevant.

I guess we will find out with time.

Just now, The Cyclist said:

 

I posted a draft copy she pencilled in for me.

 

But I have not filed yet and I am awaiting the updated paperwork, that is meant to be coming.

I think I saw it and it made no sense in regard to exempt income.  I suspect that would totally confuse anyone in the RD other than her.

9 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Which is probably why the girl at the RD told me I had to file my UK Government Pension, even though it is only taxable in the UK.

Out of curiosity  did you find a location on the Thai tax form to list it as exempt?

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

This is my understanding

 

POR 161 / 162 is an Interdepartmental memorandum.

 

Royal Decree for LTR Visa, I have no idea.

 

DTA's are International Agreements. rather than Ministerial Regulations.

 

I don't see this as definitive as you.   I would counter that POR 161/162 , Royal Decree, and even DTAs are intended to clarify (or be used in parallel with)  Ministerial Regulations and the tax code, and as such, are to be included in the category of  Ministerial regulations.

Do I know this for certain. No. Obviously not.

Which is why, despite my being on an LTR visa, I brought no money into Thailand in tax year 2024, and until this is clarified I can easily go a few more years at my same life style without bringing more money into Thailand.  By then I hope there is more clarity.

But - if I had to bet - I would bet my interpretation correct.  Fortunately, I do not have to make that bet.

.

40 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Well, here is Cardens response

 

But the female Thai Tax person is quite specific at around the 10 minute mark, with the 3 levels

 

1. In Thailand for 180 days or more.

 

2. Remit income in 2024, which was earned in 2024, 

 

3. File a tax return.

 

Section 40 ( 1 ) says : Assessable income is income of the following categories

 

Quote

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.⁴

 

That seems quite clear to me. Pensions need to be filed.

 

DTA's will then determine whether they are subject to Thai Tax or only taxable in home Country.

 

TEDA's and pension Credits will determine whether you have any tax to pay.

 

I disagree with part of what you posted.

I believe it is more complex than what you posted.   Section 40(1) is NOT the only section in the Thai Tax code. OK?

Please note:

Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:
(1) ...
(2) ...
(17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations.
...

Ok?

That begs the question ...  are POR.161/162, Royal Decree 743 (for LTR visas) and Thailand Double Tax agreements included under the category of Ministerial regulations?  

If they are, then what they may say about tax exemption is very important, as any tax exempt income noted by them is not to be included for the purpose of income tax calculations (per Section 42 of the Thai tax code).

Ok?  So if one's DTA (for example such as the Thai-Canada DTA - which says only Canada has the right to tax a Canadian sourced pension or similar Canadian sourced remuneration), then such income if remitted to Thailand is exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation.

If that is one's only income, then one has no income to be included for income tax calculation, and hence if no assessable income one does not meet the threshold of assessable income for filing a Thai tax return.

Clearly eveyone's financial sitution is different but the point is that there is more to this than just section 40.1.

The second point is everyone needs to evaluate their own financial situation and be careful of blindly following anyone's general guidelines.

5 hours ago, samtam said:

It seems fairly obvious that the tax forms need to be amended to take account the many variations of how remitted money is brought in, if that is the RD's intention. I'm not sure they really know what they want, judging by the lack of new forms and the variations in responses from RD officers and offices themselves. But here we are with 71 days to go until the deadline.

"if that is the RD's intention."  ... perhaps that is the key qualification.  Is the term " RD " just the senior managers in Bangkok, or is it all RD across the country?

And do the tax forms now properly reflect current policies?

As it stands today, I think one can make an argument that given Thai tax-code section-42 has a list of income that is not to be included in a tax calculation, ... then that could mean such income (noted in that article) is not required to be included in a tax return. 

So if that speculation correct, then looking at the list of exempt items, there is Item-17 in that article's list which notes income exempt under ministerial regulations should not be included in a tax calculation.

Does Paw-161/162 (covering pre-1-Jan-2024 income) and Royal Decree-743 (LTR visa)  and various country DTAs come under the terminology of ministerial regulations.

And does the DTA with one's source country exclude Thai taxation on one's relevant remitted income ?

If they do (and if foreign income excluded per DTA (this needs to be checked)), and if the above speculative interpretation is accurate, then there is no need to list such associated income in a Thailand tax return.  And if there is no need to list such in a Thai tax return, then there is also no need to list such income as exemptions in the exemption section (so then it matters not if such is not in the exemption section).  And if those incomes (covered as tax exempt under ministerial regulations) are one's only income either in Thailand, or remitted to Thailand, then there could be no need to submit a tax return.

Is that accurate?  I don't know.  It does have me wondering about this.

I am most curious to watch how this evolves over the course of the next few years.

39 minutes ago, khunPer said:

The new thing is that from 1st January 2024 – not 2025, as you mention – any foreign income is income taxable in Thailand, no matter when it's earned.

That is not precisely my understanding.  Although perhaps I read you words that i quoted wrong .

My understand, per paw-161/162, that any foreign savings/income from BEFORE 1-Jan-2024 remitted to Thailand anytime in the future,  is not subject to Thailand tax. 

However any income earned AFTER 31-Dec-2023 remitted to Thailand any time in the future may be subject to Thailand tax (dependent on specific content of DTAs and perhaps LTR visa category). 

Maybe that's what you were typing and I my interpretation found the wording ambiguous.

6 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

No, Remittances are not taxable. Income is taxable. 

Except if audited the Thai RD may assume remittances are current year income, and it is best to keep records to prove such is not current year income (consider is such is assessable or non-assessable given other factors such as is money pre-1-Jan-2024? is money 'protected' from Thai tax by a very specific DTA clause? is one on an LTR visa? ).

3 hours ago, samtam said:

@Mutt Daeng & @oldcpu are you suggesting that remitted income (by whatever means, ATM, Debit Card, FPS QR etc), should not be included as assessable income, even if these those "remittances" are derived from monies paid in the tax year 2024, such as UK State Pension in my case?

No. i"m not suggesting such. I don't know the origin of that money, nor do I know the UK-Thai DTA details.

I think if you can show that money plausibly could have come from pre-1-Jan-2024 savings/income, then all is ok.  But regard to money derived from tax year-2024 and remitted into Thailand  ? You need to check the UK-Thai DTA.

1 minute ago, WebGuy said:

 

Thank you. I will explore this. 

The other question would be if based on being on LTR I can apply for Thai citizenship. 

 

I am married with Thai wife and we have a daughter. I must wait for 3 years to be on non O marriage visa and then I can apply. I don't think the the response will be positive on this one.

I don't know.

I doubt that it does. 

I have read no documents stating nor suggesting that the LTR provides a path to Thai citizenship. 

I do believe if you became a permanent resident or citizen of Thailand,  you would immediately lose all benefits that come with an LTR visa.