oldcpu

I think that is a good and fair question ... and I believe I am acquiring a view as to the answer. The short answer is examples have already been pointed out where the term 'assessable' has been applied for foreign income in official Thai RD documents. From that one can infer that there must also be income that is 'not assessable'. My long answer: I note the phrase "assessable income" is used in many Thai ministerial documents. Why not just say "income" if all income is assessable? That suggests since the word "assessable" was used then by deduction that there may be income that is "not assessable". But it goes further than that. If one looks at the Thai tax code section-42 one will note there is a list of income that is not to be included in a tax calculation (reference: https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html ) . .... One would nominally assume assessable income must be included in a tax calculation (and exemptions subtracted from such per the Thai tax form). But in the Thai Tax Code section-42, it specifically states some types of income should not be included in a tax calculation. One could conclude (and I don't know if this is correct) that income that shall not be included in a tax calculation in accordance with RD tax law, that such income is by deduction "not assessable" income. If those deductions are correct, how is that relevant? Note paw-161(6-Oct-2023) states foreign assessable income remitted to Thailand is now taxable in Thailand, and that paw.162(20-Nov-2023) goes on to note that paw-161/2023 does not apply to income prior to 1-January-2024. Further, note Royal Decree 743 (for LTR-WP and LTR-WGC and LTR_WFTP visa holders) and the "Notification of the Director-General of the Revenue Department regarding Income Tax (No.427) both note foreign income for those LTR Visa holders is exempt tax. Further, Royal Decree 743 even uses the words "assessable" income (in the translations) as being tax exempt. Note also that some DTAs (not all) state some income can only be taxed in the foreign country (and not taxed in Thailand). I should add some also say the opposite (only taxed in Thailand) so one MUST read the DTA. Then again look at Royal Decree 18 (issued under the Revenue Code regarding Revenue Tax exemption in B.E. 2505(1962) which in essence notes DTAs need to be adhered to (and could result in exempt income to avoid double taxation). That is my word summary. And finally, go back and look at the Thai tax code section-42 one will note there is a list of income that is not to be included in a tax calculation, where item-17 refers to "Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations. " which one could assess include Royal Decree 743 (LTR) and Royal Decree 18 (DTA) and Paw.161/162. That suggests exemptions under those Royal Decrees should not be included in a tax calculation. And if not included in a tax calculation, does that not make them not assessable? I am no tax expert. I am only trying to understand this for myself. There may be more Thailand ministerial tax related documents which provide more clarification as to the term "not assessable", but I believe I have read enough to appreciate there is indeed income that Thailand has directed are not to be included in a tax calculation and possibly not even mentioned in a Thai tax return.. Once again - I am no tax expert. Yes the above might be seen as a bit 'convoluted' when considering "not assessable" income, but I do believe such is a good term. Its definition thou is, I concede, not so clear when comparing to "assessable exempt" income. I think for the moment, everyone should make their own judgement call, as to whether any of these ministerial documents (or DTA) affects whether or not they need to file a Thai tax return and act accordingly. Do NOT rely solely on the advice of any poster (including do not rely on what I post).

MikeM - it reads to me that you have checked this. This is my "interpretation" from reading Article 18 in the Australia-Thai DTA which starts off with the statement (where I only selected part of the DTA and I inserted the country names ) : ... so clearly Article-19 is important ... Some relevant words from article-19 : That item-2 suggests to me that a Thai wife who is a resident of Thailand , may then have to pay tax in possibly in Thailand (?) on the 2/3 portion of her passed away Australian husband's military pension that she will receive. .... I could have this wrong - but I believe that is also what you have determined? But I am no tax expert and I struggle to understand DTAs. Hopefully you have a document (with account number(s), contact address and contact phone number) prepared in advance to make her task easier. Which reminds me, .... I need to do the same for my Canadian pension and retirement income fund to ease my younger Thai wife's task for when I eventually croke.

That's part of my disappointment with the Siam-legal examples. They should cover such from a tax payment, tax exemption, tax assessability, and tax submission requirement perspective. They do none of that.

Their examples are also limited. For example they don't give any example of a scenario which is often referred to in this and other Asean Now threads, where a foreigner with a lot of savings/income from before 1-Jan-2024 brings some or all of that money into Thailand in 2024, or 2025, or any subsequent year, and the amount exceeds the Thai threshold for filing a tax return. Paw-161/162 are very relevant here in such a scenario. Why did Siam legal not provide that as an example? My cynical speculation? They don't want to clarify such as they wish to drum up business from people in that category. But I am also possibly too cynical.

It looks to me that she is correct (as long as you did not somehow obtain Thai citizenship). I was curious so I took a quick look at the Australia-Thai DTA. Her assessment is consistent with Article-19 (Government Service) of the Australia-Thailand Double Tax Agreement (DTA), which states (I edited it a bit): 2. Any pension paid to an individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of government functions to one of the Contracting States (ie Australia) .... shall be taxable only in that State ( i.e. Australia). Military service is IMHO considered Government Service. The noted DTA goes on to note thou, if one is a citizen of Thailand (and still managed to get this Australian pension), then the Australian government service pension would in that case be taxable in Thailand. Is your wife Thai ? .... If so, does she get your Australia pension when you pass away if she survives you? If so, she may have to pay tax in Thailand on such (and not to Australia) in the sad/unfortunate case if you were to pass away. I could be wrong in the above, but this is how this looks to me (as noted, I was curious - I have a number of Australian friends).

The Royal Decree does not talk about remittance dates. It talks of assessable income date. It simply, at the end of section-5, states 'and brought into Thailand'. Thinking there is a relevant date for the remittance is IMHO a wrong interpretation of the Royal Decree translation. Again, I see little point in reopening the debate.

Where the Royal Decree states "in the previous year" it refers to the income. It does not say anything about when the remittance must take place or must not take place. What was noted is, in my opinion, a wrong interpretation by ExpatTaxThailand. As noted , this has already been debated, there has been no agreement from the different views, so there is likely nothing to be gained by re-opening this debate. ... IMHO time will tell as to whom is right and whom is wrong.

I don't know "ExpatTaxThailand" but this viewpoint has been debated before with NO agreement. I note (a translation) for the Royal Decree for Wealthy Pensioners and Wealthy Global Citizens state: The point those with the view of the "ExpatTaxThailand" (that you note) fail to account for, is one ALWAYS files taxes for the previous tax year. One does NOT nominally file taxes for the current year. So having no tax due for income derived in the previous year is no issue. Frankly, IMHO, they (ExpatTaxThailand and those who agree with them) have their taxation years all mixed up. Having typed that, for many of us who are Wealthy Pensioners (WP) or Wealthy Global Citizens (WGC), this has no affect, as most of our money is abroad, and waiting a year to bring in our income is zero problem. Possibly only the "Work from Thailand Professionals" (WFTP) or those who only 'barely' qualified for WP or WGC might want to watch this more closely. In summary, IMHO, be sceptical about a wrong interpretation of "ExpatTaxThailand" (where this is only MY opinion).

I suspect there are many differences among the different country DTAs with Thailand on this. Take Canada for example, where the DTA notes (I inserted the "Canada" and "Thailand" below): It clear - for Canadian pensions or similar remunerations, they can only be taxed by Canada. The words "similar remuneration" pretty much means Canadian RRSPs and RRIFs (conceptually similar to USA 401(K) are only taxable in Canada (and Canada DOES tax them with a hefty tax) for Thailand tax residents) ... < sigh > I suspect tax would be less if they could be taxed in Thailand instead of Canada but that is not the case < sigh > . ... Germany DTA is better here IMHO where the German-Thai DTA gives Thailand exclusive taxation rights over German pensions for Thailand tax residents.

I tend to agree with you Jim, although I concede this is only an opinion of mine with no Thailand taxation basis but rather based on Canadian taxation ,which frankly, probably has no relevance to how Thailand does such (other than my making a minor point). Best I recall (although its been decades since I have done such) in Canada, for one's tax return, at the end of the taxation year, one can note the market (close of business last business day in the calendar/tax year) value of an equity, and declare that value in calculating a profit, and pay tax accordingly on that declared profit - even thou the equities were NEVER liquidated. One then carries forward (for subsequent taxation years) that declared value of the equity for assessing future profits. Hence it leads me to speculate (and wonder) if Thailand will accept a declared equity value of end-Dec-2023 for any equities, without the need to liquidate the equities to cash for the purpose of meeting paw.161/162 tax exemption criteria. I don't know the answer. It may be no. But I think it a viable question for many to ask as it could affect their taxation assessment.

Well , possibly a mute point but that is not 100% the full story in regards to the English language Thailand tax forms going back to tax year 2017 (ie 2017 to 2023).. I note for the English language Thai tax return forms (91) that for years 2017 to 2020, the year was hard 'printed' in the tax form on the first page. And then (as you note) for tax year 2021, 2022, and 2023, the field in the form on the first page was left 'blank' for the individual filling in the form to populate. However what was not mentioned, for 2021 to 2023 tax year forms, on the last page entitled "Allowance(s) and Exemption(s) after Deduction of Expense(s) Attachment) does have the 'Tax year' hard printed. So if any use the 2023 form for a year 2024 tax return, they may be using an expense deduction page for the 'wrong' year. However, having typed that, I can't see much difference in each year's tax form. I tend to speculate now that we may not see much (and possibly none) difference in the 2024 tax year form, other than perhaps the last page. But that is my speculation - where frankly, speculation is just that : speculation. .

True . But ... when considering assessable vs not-assessable income, things such as one's Visa (LTR for example) and the DTA with Thailand of one's income source country also come into play. Before that change, these things didn't matter as the interpetation of remitted income was assessed less defined/different. So now other aspects (for some non LTR visa holders) such as each DTA needs to be considered and DTAs can be very different. Case in point - German-Thai DTA: all German sourced pensions for Thai tax residents are not taxed in Germany but instead Thailand has the exclusive taxation rights. however ... Canada-Thai DTA: all Canadian sourced pensions for Thai tax residents are to be exclusively taxed in Canada. In that very specific and limited aspect those DTAs could not be much more different. And that is only two countries (Canada and Germany). How many other countries have different arrangements with Thailand in their DTAs? Before the 'change' these DTAs could be ignored for most - but now attention needs to be paid to them, and frankly, the DTAs are not always so easy to read. ... and also questions arise as to what income/money is considered pre-1-Jan-2024? There is discussion whether the profit on still liquid close of business 31-Dec-2023 value of equities can be included as pre-1-Jan-2024 income. Does such pre-1-Jan-2024 funds need to be in cash only? These are just a couple of examples that come to my mind and there may be more. Further, there could be aspects where NO tax is due to tax exemptions, but whether in such a case whether an income tax return (to prove such) is needed is possibly not so clear - especially if Thai RD is not very open to hand out a tax-ID. So while I fully agree "the only thing that has changed is the new interpretation of how remitted income may be assessable income if the income is both earned and remitted after 31 December 2023" ... the devil is in the details, and it starts to get a bit complex here. Which I believe in part (albeit not fully) explains a number of the posts in this very long thread.

Interesting ... in that list of items of items of assessable income exempt for the purpose of Income tax calculation I note item-17 : (17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations. I believe this is very relevant. I am asking myself ... perhaps this includes LTR-Wealthy Pensioner/Wealthy Global Citizen assessable income exempt from tax in accordance with Royal Decree-743. (ie it can be considered a Ministerial regulation ? ) And hence I speculate if that is so, it should not be included for income tax calculation and thus not included on a tax form - where I speculate further that no Thai tax return is thus needed if such is the only income of the holder of the LTR-WP/WGC. Further, I wonder if income covered by a specific Double Tax Agreement (DTA) (for example such as a pension from Canada where the Thai-Canadian DTA states it is to only be taxed in Canada), does that then also come under "17" (ministerial regulations)? ... as I suspect ? (albeit don't know) that there is a Thai ministerial regulation acknowledging the existence of a DTA and as such covered under item-17. If so, this may also be relevant to some (not all) other country DTA (although EVERY person should check the DTA of the source country (with Thailand) of their income to assess this aspect) - as it could mean no Thai tax return needed (if it is the only income source) - again very very very dependent on what the DTA says. Further, given Paw-161/162 are ministerial documents (and perhaps considered regulations per item-17) then they too for income before 1-Jan-2024 brought into Thailand note such shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation (and also not included on a Thai tax return). Which could mean no Thai tax return needed if pre-1-Jan-2024 income/savings the only income. Clearly I am speculating a lot, but this item-17 may be the answer to some of my puzzling. I am now just as curious to see what the Thai 2024 (English language) tax return form will state , but I am also speculating (again) that there will be minimal change from the 2023 Thai tax return form and that my speculation could have some validity. The above is me speculating - this is NOT, I repeat NOT, intended to give anyone advice as to whether they should or should not file a Thai tax return. Hopefully others will chime in and correct my speculations. .

Well - I guess that is a good question ... but is it really a contradiction? The current Thai tax forms clearly have areas for exemptions. There is no doubt there. One can simply look at the tax forms. But ... can an entire income be considered tax-exempt for 1 reason (and thus treated as 'not assessable' ) ? I even know of a Royal Decree that notes in a specific case that 'foreign assessable income is tax exempt'. The Royal Decree is very clear in the use of assessable income and tax exemption of that assessable income. Does that Royal Decree contradict itself? Don't get me wrong. I don't know the answer here, but I concede I struggle to see this as clear as perhaps you do. Fortunately i have a decent life situation where I can wait this out, until hopefully you are clearly shown in practice to be 100% correct. That is my hope that you are correct.

I have been trying to SUMMARIZE a lot of this tax stuff in my own mind (and I may have some details right and some wrong). This thread has me looking again and again at the wording of paw.161 and paw.162. As I noted before (where this quote is my wording) : What I paid attention to this time when I read read 161/162 was Paw.161 and 162 (translations) clearly indicate they are relevant to assessable income. Of course I am reading translations, but assuming the translations are correct, then as many have ALREADY noted on this thread, it is important to be able to assess the difference between 'assessable income' and 'not assessable income'. I find that difference is not as easy as i would like to be able to determine, but quite possibly that is my pessimistic assessment. AND thus from what I can interpret/read Paw.161/162 together notes pre-1-Jan-2024 income (and presumably savings from before 1-Jan-2024) is not-assessable. Further, it infers that even if that pre-1-Jan-2024 income/savings is brought into Thailand in future years, it is still not assessable income. My understanding is that being not-assessable nominally means it not need to be reported on an income tax return , and hence part of the criteria for deciding if an income tax return is required or not required. ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN SAID BEFORE ON THIS THREAD but its buried deep in a massive number of other posts. My speculation is those (Thailand tax residents) who live off of income/savings ALREADY in Thailand from before 1-Jan-2024 have no impact from Paw.161/162 and if they have no other Thailand income then they may not to have to file a Thai tax return. That's my opinion - NOT a tax recommendation. For example, in my case, most money brought into Thailand when I was a non-resident. Further, my speculation is that those (Thailand tax residents) who bring pre-1-Jan-2024 assessable income into Thailand, ... since that is now categorized as not-assessable based on Paw.161/162, and hence is not nominally to be included in a Thai tax return. Hence if those bring in pre-1-Jan-2024 income into Thailand and IF they have no other Thailand income then they may not to have to file a Thai tax return. Again that's my opinion - NOT a tax recommendation. Hence I speculate (further) that those who might be affected the most are those who bring into Thailand post-31-Dec-2023 assessable income, where such income is still assessable (ie not made not-assessable by a VERY SPECIFIC and relevant DTA for said person). Then if their foreign assessable income is above a certain Thai threshold amount, these individuals need to very carefully monitor the current situation, as they could be on the hook to file a Thai tax return. Again that's my opinion - NOT a tax recommendation. ie. this could mainly affect those who want to now bring money into Thailand (or did so in tax year 2024) and if that income is considered assessable. In many respects - from what I can read it is really important to read what is assessable income and what is not assessable income. Confusion (in my mind) can come about where "assessable tax exempt income" is considered by some to be "not-assessable" income - and THAT difference may be important when it comes to assessing if a Thai tax return needed or not needed (dependent on the situation). And I do NOT know what is correct there. Of course most people's situations are different (different incomes, different DTAs) so that adds a layer of complexity. These are interesting times - and my hope this is quickly clarified in coming months (however I won't hold my breath waiting for any clarification). .

Thanks. May I ask, in what province did you apply for your TIN ?

Note i edited my post ... and you also ADDED IN AN EDIT OF YOUR OWN and you quoted and typed in bold (before my edit complete). I was specifically referring to 161 and 162, and I edited my post so others like yourself won't have the wrong impression as to what i was posting

Agreed. i edited my previous post to clarify the context of what I typed. < sigh > one tries to be succinct and it leads to a different impression as to what was being intended. Anyway - my post has been edited.

Paw.161 stated any tax resident who is remitting assessable income into Thailand must take into account such income to calculate income tax. My understanding Paw.162 then goes on to clarify that that Paw.161 does NOT apply to remitted assessable income before 1-January-2024. No where (edit: in paw.161.162) does it state everyone must file a tax return like you mistakenly (I believe) inferred. RATHER it adds information as to what is assessable income so to support the decision as to whether a tax return need be filed and whether such income needs to be reported (although that statement is a deduction from what Paw.161/162 state).

Lol ! Thats similar (sort of) to what the Thai (Phuket branch) RD official advised my Thai wife re: my LTR Visa.

I suspect you agree, for some it depends on the DTA. In some cases the DTA state only Thailand can tax, in other cases only the 'other country can tax', and in other cases both can tax where one has priority. However I am considering more the case of CLEARLY assessable income from before 1-Jan-2024, which is now considered tax exempt. There is no provision for that in the 2023 tax form (nor from what I could see in the English translation of the Thai 2024 tax form - albeit the translation I was using was admittedly poor). I am also considering more the case of the LTR visa where the Royal Decree for LTR visa specifically notes ASSESSABLE income for some LTR visa holders is tax exempt. The Royal Decree specifically refers to ASSESSABLE INCOME for those Visa holders and it does not in ANY location state anywhere that such income should then be treated as not assessable. Possiby this is only 'wording'. Possibly not. Of course there are differences of opinion as to how such income should be assessed (after it is known to be tax exempt) and I am not going to push one view over the other but I do note both views (ie such should be ONLY considered "not-assessable" (as it is tax exempt) ??? or such should be considered the assessable income that it is and a tax exemption applied to it ??? Dare I say some expats deny the others view? and either could be correct. I openly admit I do not know. Hence until all this settles, I plan to have no Thai income and to remit no income to Thailand. I remitted a lot (to Thailand) previously when I was not a Thai tax resident.

I even go a step further and note there is no place on the forms to list some specific cases of tax exempt clearly assessable income that many expats receive. Ergo that does support the assessment of those who propose not to include such tax exempt accessible income in the tax return submission. Is that a correct approach? I don't know.

.. and .?? ... I can not find any location in the exemptions section of the Thai Tax form to add such as an exemption. The section/box A entry must match that of the detailed Box B. Box B has no place where it can be entered. Have you looked at the 2023 tax forms? ( 2024 is not out in English language yet).

DTA does help for some countries, but not for others. Please check your specific DTA and don't assume non-assessable without first checking your DTA. My hope is that you checked.

OK. And where in box B of the Thai tax form is the P60 statement number entered? There is no place for it in that Thai tax form exemption table best that I can read.