oldcpu

I tend to agree with you Jim, although I concede this is only an opinion of mine with no Thailand taxation basis but rather based on Canadian taxation ,which frankly, probably has no relevance to how Thailand does such (other than my making a minor point). Best I recall (although its been decades since I have done such) in Canada, for one's tax return, at the end of the taxation year, one can note the market (close of business last business day in the calendar/tax year) value of an equity, and declare that value in calculating a profit, and pay tax accordingly on that declared profit - even thou the equities were NEVER liquidated. One then carries forward (for subsequent taxation years) that declared value of the equity for assessing future profits. Hence it leads me to speculate (and wonder) if Thailand will accept a declared equity value of end-Dec-2023 for any equities, without the need to liquidate the equities to cash for the purpose of meeting paw.161/162 tax exemption criteria. I don't know the answer. It may be no. But I think it a viable question for many to ask as it could affect their taxation assessment.

Well , possibly a mute point but that is not 100% the full story in regards to the English language Thailand tax forms going back to tax year 2017 (ie 2017 to 2023).. I note for the English language Thai tax return forms (91) that for years 2017 to 2020, the year was hard 'printed' in the tax form on the first page. And then (as you note) for tax year 2021, 2022, and 2023, the field in the form on the first page was left 'blank' for the individual filling in the form to populate. However what was not mentioned, for 2021 to 2023 tax year forms, on the last page entitled "Allowance(s) and Exemption(s) after Deduction of Expense(s) Attachment) does have the 'Tax year' hard printed. So if any use the 2023 form for a year 2024 tax return, they may be using an expense deduction page for the 'wrong' year. However, having typed that, I can't see much difference in each year's tax form. I tend to speculate now that we may not see much (and possibly none) difference in the 2024 tax year form, other than perhaps the last page. But that is my speculation - where frankly, speculation is just that : speculation. .

True . But ... when considering assessable vs not-assessable income, things such as one's Visa (LTR for example) and the DTA with Thailand of one's income source country also come into play. Before that change, these things didn't matter as the interpetation of remitted income was assessed less defined/different. So now other aspects (for some non LTR visa holders) such as each DTA needs to be considered and DTAs can be very different. Case in point - German-Thai DTA: all German sourced pensions for Thai tax residents are not taxed in Germany but instead Thailand has the exclusive taxation rights. however ... Canada-Thai DTA: all Canadian sourced pensions for Thai tax residents are to be exclusively taxed in Canada. In that very specific and limited aspect those DTAs could not be much more different. And that is only two countries (Canada and Germany). How many other countries have different arrangements with Thailand in their DTAs? Before the 'change' these DTAs could be ignored for most - but now attention needs to be paid to them, and frankly, the DTAs are not always so easy to read. ... and also questions arise as to what income/money is considered pre-1-Jan-2024? There is discussion whether the profit on still liquid close of business 31-Dec-2023 value of equities can be included as pre-1-Jan-2024 income. Does such pre-1-Jan-2024 funds need to be in cash only? These are just a couple of examples that come to my mind and there may be more. Further, there could be aspects where NO tax is due to tax exemptions, but whether in such a case whether an income tax return (to prove such) is needed is possibly not so clear - especially if Thai RD is not very open to hand out a tax-ID. So while I fully agree "the only thing that has changed is the new interpretation of how remitted income may be assessable income if the income is both earned and remitted after 31 December 2023" ... the devil is in the details, and it starts to get a bit complex here. Which I believe in part (albeit not fully) explains a number of the posts in this very long thread.

Interesting ... in that list of items of items of assessable income exempt for the purpose of Income tax calculation I note item-17 : (17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations. I believe this is very relevant. I am asking myself ... perhaps this includes LTR-Wealthy Pensioner/Wealthy Global Citizen assessable income exempt from tax in accordance with Royal Decree-743. (ie it can be considered a Ministerial regulation ? ) And hence I speculate if that is so, it should not be included for income tax calculation and thus not included on a tax form - where I speculate further that no Thai tax return is thus needed if such is the only income of the holder of the LTR-WP/WGC. Further, I wonder if income covered by a specific Double Tax Agreement (DTA) (for example such as a pension from Canada where the Thai-Canadian DTA states it is to only be taxed in Canada), does that then also come under "17" (ministerial regulations)? ... as I suspect ? (albeit don't know) that there is a Thai ministerial regulation acknowledging the existence of a DTA and as such covered under item-17. If so, this may also be relevant to some (not all) other country DTA (although EVERY person should check the DTA of the source country (with Thailand) of their income to assess this aspect) - as it could mean no Thai tax return needed (if it is the only income source) - again very very very dependent on what the DTA says. Further, given Paw-161/162 are ministerial documents (and perhaps considered regulations per item-17) then they too for income before 1-Jan-2024 brought into Thailand note such shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation (and also not included on a Thai tax return). Which could mean no Thai tax return needed if pre-1-Jan-2024 income/savings the only income. Clearly I am speculating a lot, but this item-17 may be the answer to some of my puzzling. I am now just as curious to see what the Thai 2024 (English language) tax return form will state , but I am also speculating (again) that there will be minimal change from the 2023 Thai tax return form and that my speculation could have some validity. The above is me speculating - this is NOT, I repeat NOT, intended to give anyone advice as to whether they should or should not file a Thai tax return. Hopefully others will chime in and correct my speculations. .

Well - I guess that is a good question ... but is it really a contradiction? The current Thai tax forms clearly have areas for exemptions. There is no doubt there. One can simply look at the tax forms. But ... can an entire income be considered tax-exempt for 1 reason (and thus treated as 'not assessable' ) ? I even know of a Royal Decree that notes in a specific case that 'foreign assessable income is tax exempt'. The Royal Decree is very clear in the use of assessable income and tax exemption of that assessable income. Does that Royal Decree contradict itself? Don't get me wrong. I don't know the answer here, but I concede I struggle to see this as clear as perhaps you do. Fortunately i have a decent life situation where I can wait this out, until hopefully you are clearly shown in practice to be 100% correct. That is my hope that you are correct.

I have been trying to SUMMARIZE a lot of this tax stuff in my own mind (and I may have some details right and some wrong). This thread has me looking again and again at the wording of paw.161 and paw.162. As I noted before (where this quote is my wording) : What I paid attention to this time when I read read 161/162 was Paw.161 and 162 (translations) clearly indicate they are relevant to assessable income. Of course I am reading translations, but assuming the translations are correct, then as many have ALREADY noted on this thread, it is important to be able to assess the difference between 'assessable income' and 'not assessable income'. I find that difference is not as easy as i would like to be able to determine, but quite possibly that is my pessimistic assessment. AND thus from what I can interpret/read Paw.161/162 together notes pre-1-Jan-2024 income (and presumably savings from before 1-Jan-2024) is not-assessable. Further, it infers that even if that pre-1-Jan-2024 income/savings is brought into Thailand in future years, it is still not assessable income. My understanding is that being not-assessable nominally means it not need to be reported on an income tax return , and hence part of the criteria for deciding if an income tax return is required or not required. ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN SAID BEFORE ON THIS THREAD but its buried deep in a massive number of other posts. My speculation is those (Thailand tax residents) who live off of income/savings ALREADY in Thailand from before 1-Jan-2024 have no impact from Paw.161/162 and if they have no other Thailand income then they may not to have to file a Thai tax return. That's my opinion - NOT a tax recommendation. For example, in my case, most money brought into Thailand when I was a non-resident. Further, my speculation is that those (Thailand tax residents) who bring pre-1-Jan-2024 assessable income into Thailand, ... since that is now categorized as not-assessable based on Paw.161/162, and hence is not nominally to be included in a Thai tax return. Hence if those bring in pre-1-Jan-2024 income into Thailand and IF they have no other Thailand income then they may not to have to file a Thai tax return. Again that's my opinion - NOT a tax recommendation. Hence I speculate (further) that those who might be affected the most are those who bring into Thailand post-31-Dec-2023 assessable income, where such income is still assessable (ie not made not-assessable by a VERY SPECIFIC and relevant DTA for said person). Then if their foreign assessable income is above a certain Thai threshold amount, these individuals need to very carefully monitor the current situation, as they could be on the hook to file a Thai tax return. Again that's my opinion - NOT a tax recommendation. ie. this could mainly affect those who want to now bring money into Thailand (or did so in tax year 2024) and if that income is considered assessable. In many respects - from what I can read it is really important to read what is assessable income and what is not assessable income. Confusion (in my mind) can come about where "assessable tax exempt income" is considered by some to be "not-assessable" income - and THAT difference may be important when it comes to assessing if a Thai tax return needed or not needed (dependent on the situation). And I do NOT know what is correct there. Of course most people's situations are different (different incomes, different DTAs) so that adds a layer of complexity. These are interesting times - and my hope this is quickly clarified in coming months (however I won't hold my breath waiting for any clarification). .

Thanks. May I ask, in what province did you apply for your TIN ?

Note i edited my post ... and you also ADDED IN AN EDIT OF YOUR OWN and you quoted and typed in bold (before my edit complete). I was specifically referring to 161 and 162, and I edited my post so others like yourself won't have the wrong impression as to what i was posting

Agreed. i edited my previous post to clarify the context of what I typed. < sigh > one tries to be succinct and it leads to a different impression as to what was being intended. Anyway - my post has been edited.

Paw.161 stated any tax resident who is remitting assessable income into Thailand must take into account such income to calculate income tax. My understanding Paw.162 then goes on to clarify that that Paw.161 does NOT apply to remitted assessable income before 1-January-2024. No where (edit: in paw.161.162) does it state everyone must file a tax return like you mistakenly (I believe) inferred. RATHER it adds information as to what is assessable income so to support the decision as to whether a tax return need be filed and whether such income needs to be reported (although that statement is a deduction from what Paw.161/162 state).

Lol ! Thats similar (sort of) to what the Thai (Phuket branch) RD official advised my Thai wife re: my LTR Visa.

I suspect you agree, for some it depends on the DTA. In some cases the DTA state only Thailand can tax, in other cases only the 'other country can tax', and in other cases both can tax where one has priority. However I am considering more the case of CLEARLY assessable income from before 1-Jan-2024, which is now considered tax exempt. There is no provision for that in the 2023 tax form (nor from what I could see in the English translation of the Thai 2024 tax form - albeit the translation I was using was admittedly poor). I am also considering more the case of the LTR visa where the Royal Decree for LTR visa specifically notes ASSESSABLE income for some LTR visa holders is tax exempt. The Royal Decree specifically refers to ASSESSABLE INCOME for those Visa holders and it does not in ANY location state anywhere that such income should then be treated as not assessable. Possiby this is only 'wording'. Possibly not. Of course there are differences of opinion as to how such income should be assessed (after it is known to be tax exempt) and I am not going to push one view over the other but I do note both views (ie such should be ONLY considered "not-assessable" (as it is tax exempt) ??? or such should be considered the assessable income that it is and a tax exemption applied to it ??? Dare I say some expats deny the others view? and either could be correct. I openly admit I do not know. Hence until all this settles, I plan to have no Thai income and to remit no income to Thailand. I remitted a lot (to Thailand) previously when I was not a Thai tax resident.

I even go a step further and note there is no place on the forms to list some specific cases of tax exempt clearly assessable income that many expats receive. Ergo that does support the assessment of those who propose not to include such tax exempt accessible income in the tax return submission. Is that a correct approach? I don't know.

.. and .?? ... I can not find any location in the exemptions section of the Thai Tax form to add such as an exemption. The section/box A entry must match that of the detailed Box B. Box B has no place where it can be entered. Have you looked at the 2023 tax forms? ( 2024 is not out in English language yet).

DTA does help for some countries, but not for others. Please check your specific DTA and don't assume non-assessable without first checking your DTA. My hope is that you checked.

OK. And where in box B of the Thai tax form is the P60 statement number entered? There is no place for it in that Thai tax form exemption table best that I can read.

In regards to that, if 2024 tax form is not to be changed from 2023, it's not straightforward how that remitted money is to be entered in a tax form. So we then get this forum views of some who claim that clearly assessable income, that is tax exempt, should then be called non assessable. And since no longer called assessable ( in their view) it should not be reported. Frankly, given the Thai tax forms limitations, I don't know who is right.

P60 ? What attachment form is that? Its not the "Allowance(s) and Exemption(s) after Deduction of Expense(s) attachment. It is also not Box B "Exempted Income" in PIT.91. Further even the different PIT.90's different "Allowance(s) and Exemption(s) after Deduction of Expense(s)" attachment section has no entry that is laid out in any shape or manner to allow entry of any exemptions from DTAs, nor from money/income from before 1-Jan-2024 (per PAW-161), nor for tax exempt assessable income of LTR Visa Wealth Pensioners/Wealthy Global Citizens. I believe it is with good reason that a number of us are interested to see what the 2024 Thai tax forms (PIT.90 and 91) might hold. Currently I have yet to find any Thai tax forms that allow entry of those tax exempt items. Note I am not saying to file or not to file. Rather just saying lets watch to see how this evolves so we can assess our own impact.

Conversion of Thai language to English language is VERY easy (using Google translate with a browser). However while such translation allows one to read the Thai forms (in English) they are no longer in what I consider a suitable format for tax submission filing. Further, when the proper English language forms come out, they could be different. .

The B6 ( not shown) where one lists exempt income and then copies that to A2 is very very very limited and in my view does not address almost all exempted income for many expatriates who are tax residents to Thai.

The "issue" as I read it, is the translation of the Royal Decree causes an ambiguity. Does the Royal Decree for the LTR visa intend to state for LTR-WP that the "tax law paragraph requiring assessable income be reported for tax" is exempt, or does it mean that just the "assessable income is tax exempt". (Those are my words - not the exact tax law nor Royal Decree words). There is a difference. Current translations I have read seem to refer to the later and not the former. I understand your interpretation. And I like your interpretation - but I am honest in stating I do not know what is correct. So as a result, given it was easy for me to do (fortunately) , I elected to bring no money into Thailand for the next few years. Further in this regard, at an unplanned moment of opportunity confirmed with a Phuket RD official that I neither needed to obtain a Thai TIN (in my circumstance) nor file a Thai tax return given I was bringing no money into Thailand. My hope is based on the experience of others, in a few years there will be no ambiguity. Clearly everyone's tax situation is different, and I suggest everyone find what they consider to be the best legally compliant approach for themselves in regards to tax-returns and taxation, optimising such as much as possible to their benefit within the letter of the law.

Article XVIII of the Canadian-Thai Double tax agreement states that "pensions and other similar remunerations ... arising in a Contracting state and paid to a resident of the other Contracting State shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned state". I interpret that as meaning "pensions and other similar remunerations ... arising in Canada and paid to a resident of Thailand shall be taxable only in Canada". Some other words are added to clarify the pension/remuneration source needs to be indeed from Canada. So from what I can read, your obligation is to only pay taxes in Canada on your Canadian sourced pensions. You will have no Thai taxes on that Canadian income (pensions). I suppose if you also have Thai income over a certain threshold, then maybe you may have to list such Canadian income in a Thai tax return, such that your 'income tax bracket' (given that Canadian income) can be assessed by Thailand in regards to Thai taxes on Thai income. But having typed that, I see no place on the Thai tax forms to adequately cover such a possibility. So maybe there is no need to list such. I do NOT know. . I will be most curious as to any response you get, and if you do get a response, I will also be curious if it is a correct response (as sometimes I think even the RD tax officials can make mistakes).

I tend to agree that in order to better address exemptions such as those noted in DTAs, Royal Decree for LTR, and income/savings from before 1-Jan-2024, it would be useful to have another line/entry under 'exemptions' in the Thai tax form. Without such entries to list those noted 'exempt' incomes in the Thai tax form, it suggests that such 'exempt' income is instead being treated as not-assessable income, ... and in which case income as such that noted need not be included on a Thai tax return. But I am no tax expert. My view is to wait for a few years (and not remit money to Thailand) and see how this 'plays out' (and I am fortunate to have the "luxury" to be able to do that).

I would encourage anyone who is clearly required to file a Thai tax return, to file one. Having type that, my view is that unless the Thai government has another (non-tax related) reason to evict one from the country, there is more likely to be just the government fining one some money , and after the fine is paid 'all is forgiven'. However if the government is looking for an excuse, to go after an individual, then not filing/paying taxes can always be a good excuse that government's will 'hang their hat' on and proceed with eviction or some imprisonment.

I don't know if normal ... but it myself 5-months to get an LTR-WP visa. I made my initial application in January-2023 and did not actually get the Visa until June-2023. Of course my case was very different from yours. One thing I suspect is there can be an interaction between the 'screener', their 'management' and 'immigration' and I suspect dependent on the presentation of the 'screener' of one's application to 'management' or to 'immigration' can change the approval/processing time. Still, my suspicion, is if what you were told is true, then I would not think it would take immigration too long. I assume this is only for you? Or is it in parallel an LTR for your family?