oldcpu

My take on those questions , noting I am NOT a tax expert, nor do I know the UK-Thai Double Tax Agreement (DTA). Hopefully some who are familiar with that DTA will chime in. And hopefully those and others will correct my assessment if I am wrong. My opinion correspond to your questions . 1. If you are a non-resident to Thailand, you can transfer the money from the sale of your house to your Thailand bank tax free in Thailand in the year in which you are a non-resident to Thailand (I know nothing about UK tax on such a sale). However (ignoring the Thai-UK DTA) if you bring the money into Thailand in a year in which you are a resident of Thailand, then profit on the sale of that house may be taxable in Thailand. IMHO you need to consult the UK-Thai DTA to assess this. 2. To be on the safe side, spend less than 180 days in Thailand in the year in which you bring the money from the (profit of ? the ) sale of your house, into Thailand. 3. Yes, you can also keep the money (in particular, I believe keep the profit) from the sale of your house in a UK bank, so to receive a higher interest. I do NOT recommend keeping large amounts of money in Wise as I believe funds there are not-insured. However once you bring this money (from a UK bank) into Thailand, then it could be considered assessable and taxable and the paper trail on this (to prove money comes from before 1-Jan-2024) could be complex. Its possible you could keep a record of proof of the ORIGINAL purchase price ... and maybe bring that amount in tax free into Thailand when a resident of Thailand. BUT I do not know if that opinion is accurate 4. You could keep the money in the UK, but there are ways to bring the money into Thailand if you do so when not a resident of Thailand.

This sort of naming tends to be up to the flavour of the axe grinder ... I have also read of many claim such about Germany. ... It often depends on which axe and where the individual is grinding.

with respect to Cambodia, what is their residency definition for filing taxes? Greater 182 days per calendar/taxation year in Cambodia? or do they have additional requirements to include as residency? No worries if not known - I am just curious. I confess I have the same curiousity with respect to Vietnam - and do they tax ww income?

I wasn't intending to suggest that. I don't know 1st hand Phuket immigration's current policy here in regards to providing (or not providing) a "grandfather" clause for those with a Type-OA issued prior to the implementation of the Thailand wide Type-OA health insurance requirement. (A mute point, but i had thought the Phuket 'grandfather' implementation for not requiring Health Insurance under a Type-OA was for Visa 'valid-until' dates before Oct-2019 (ie for those already on extensions as before ~Oct-2020) - as my Type-OA was 28-March-2019 issue (with a 27-March-2020 valid until), and I was required to show Health Insurance from the Thai branch of a health insurance company for my 1st retirement extension in Feb-2021. ie I was not grand fathered. I did read a recent post on Asean now where someone claimed Phuket immigration was no longer implementing a grandfather clause for those whose 'valid-until' dates were before Oct-2020 - but they provided no details in regards to their visa issue date nor valid-until-date so its difficult to be certain if what they reported is indeed the case.

Its (IMHO) a good video - although I believe the absolute main take away from it needs to be one should check the DTA of their income source country, with Thailand. In the video he states, one's country of residence typically has the 1st taxing right - which he also notes countrys typically tax global income. Most of his video is associated with this generalization. It is important to note thou, at present, Thailand does not tax global income if money left outside of Thailand. Yes that could change , but that is important at present. That does not mean to say the video is not good, but its important not to get carried away when watching the video. Why? Currently, to the best of my knowledge, Thailand (given paw.161) will only tax income and savings brought into Thailand if that income was earned AFTER 31-Dec-2023, ... and in the case of savings only tax that savings (when brought into Thailand) if the savings was saved AFTER 31-Dec-2023. But the savings/income MUST be brought into Thailand to be assessable for Thai tax (at present time). if the foreign income is not brought into Thailand, then there is no Thai tax on such. Further, if one can show that the income/savings was earned (or saved) BEFORE 1-Jan-2024, then when that (old) income/savings is brought into Thailand, it is not taxable by Thailand. It may not even be assessable (but i don't know re:assessable - where assessable vs exempt tax may be important if it comes to filing a Thai tax return). Also - I want to go back and point out what I noted that one should check the DTA (with Thailand) of the country where their foreign income is sourced. Because despite what he generalized, it is possible that one of the countries has exclusive taxation rights for certain income, or its possible one of the countries has given up its taxation rights for certain income. Those details are important, generalizations here are VERY BAD, and one should, ... I repeat should ... check the relevant DTA with Thailand. So in summary - yes that video is interesting - but the BIG take away is to check one's DTA, because the possibilities that he noted in that video may indeed NOT be the case, dependent on one's income type/source, and one's source income country DTA with Thailand. Also - I am NO tax expert - so any reading this - you are likely better served to research this yourselves, as this is my opinion based on what I have read - and I could be wrong.

The video link did not work for me. <<< EDIT - the link works now!! I do agree - a DTA should likely be checked by each expat in Thailand who brings current year income into Thailand, to see if the DTA between Thailand and the source country of their income, says anything about where one is liable for tax. Such a DTA may be helpful - or may not be helpful - dependent on the country and type of income.

Thanks ! Am I correct in assuming this is from a Thai branch of Pacific Cross? .

With regard to the Type-OA visa ... I was curious, so I checked the "Phuket Immigration Volunteers" web site, where it notes: - - - - - - So I went to the noted link https://longstay.tgia.org/ and it still lists the acceptable Thai branch of Health Insurance companies for type-OA visa. Of course (like me) that web site too could be out of date. I am curious to learn from current type-OA visa holders on annual retirement extensions. Did you have to prove health insurance for your last extension?

Possibly I am out of date here. I recall there was a blank (to be filled in) Thai form for one to certify their foreign health insurance, but it was only for the initial application of one's Type-OA visa. That form (that I recall) was not acceptable for the 1 year extensions (of the Type-OA) for reason of retirement (or at least it was not accepted in Phuket immigration). I actually tried to get European Cigna to fill in the 'Thai form' (which requests the signature of a director of the health insurance company certify they meet the Thai requirements per a Thai document) and European Cigna flatly refused - claiming they did not know and hence would not certify to Thai requirements. I even attempted to provide them the Thai requirements, but they still refused. ... That of course is a mute point - as Phuket immigration still would not have accepted such. I then asked a Thai Cigna branch if they would certify my European Cigna health insurance (for a small nominal fee) for my annual extension (on the type-OA) and Thai Cigna refused. Thai branch of Cigna insisted I go for 100% insurance from their branch before they would certify Thai Health Insurance requirements met. Foreign Health Insurance requirements for the LTR visa are more easy to prove as acceptable (to BoI), but that is off topic with regards to this thread. AND as noted - I am possibly out of date ... I think that was 4 years ago when I went through this.

Interesting. Are you certain you are not thinking of COVID health insurance no longer required? I believe health insurance from the Thai branch of a Health Insurance company (for annual extensions for reason of retirement) for type-OA visa is still required - and that Health insurance must equal or exceed a certain immigration specified coverage.

I believe there IS an advantage to Type-O if your health insurance is NOT from the Thai branch of a health insurance company. One issue with the type-OA health insurance requirement that I encountered (some years back), was for a one-year extension (for reason of retirement), immigration required that the Health Insurance had to come from the Thai branch of a health insurance company. I had (and still have) subsidized Health Insurance from Europe that exceeds the Thai requirements, but it was unacceptable for Phuket immigration (as it was not on their list of acceptable Thai branches of insurance company ). So for one year 1 actually purchased DOUBLE health insurance (ie kept my far superior European health insurance AND I purchased less capable Thai health insurance). The next year when I went for an extension (on the type-OA) I went for reason of marriage (and hence I did not need to purchase DOUBLE health insurance via the Thai branch of a health insurance company). The year after that, I exited Thailand without a re-entry permit, to invalidate my Type-OA and re-entered visa exempt, and applied for and obtained a Type-O visa (which has no requirements for Health Insurance), per the very salient (in my view) observation of DrJack54. ( I did keep my European Health insurance - but that European Health Insurance is irrelevant from a Thai immigration perspective). It is not relevant to me anymore (my being on an LTR visa now) but I concede I do read these threads with interest. I wonder 'HAS ANYONE' on a Type-OA visa, when applying for a 1-year extension for reason of retirement, been successful in getting their local Thai immigration office to accept Health Insurance from a NON-THAI branch of a Health Insurance company? .

Perhaps now is a good time to visit Australia.

Indeed. It does not mean funds are tax exempt. This is where paw.161 (for income prior to 1-Jan-2024) comes in handy, and where currently the LTR visa comes in handy for myself (as I reside in Thailand >180 days/calendar(tax) year). .

It can often be difficult to predict the future. I recall when I purchased a condo in 2016 in Phuket (with intent to move to Phuket from Europe in 2017, upon a planned retirement), and advise was given to me to NOT buy: 1. Some stated never buy in Thailand for first year or so after a move to Thailand - - ALWAYS rent first. Nominally - I think ok advice, although in my case I had lived previous in Thailand from 1997 to 1999, and at the time (in 2016) I had been married to my Thai wife for 15 years, and every year we visited Thailand for a few weeks. So I think that 'specific don't buy' advise was not really applicable to myself, and 2. another friend (who claimed to know ins-outs of Thailand, pushed the view the Thai economy and real estate market would 'tank' and 'collapse' when the previous King passed away (where the King was very ill then). I couldn't see the same royal connection on the economy that they insisted was correct. Well we have a new Thai King, and the Thai economy doesn't appear to be significantly worse as a result. It did not hurt the real-estate market. So I saw then (and see now) that as a mistaken view. Now I view the possibility of taxation more serious wrt a risk of an impact - but I am not (yet) a believer we will see a big impact on most expatriates. I do thou note I don't have a good sense on the financial situation of most expatriates, which makes the future difficult to predict. Also, often when laws are applied, there is a grandfather clause, and I speculate (where 'speculate is the operative word' ) that any who bring in pre-1-Jan-2024 (savings/income) money into Thailand now to purchase a condo, are not likely to have a tax issue with the money they brought in. Further, I note paw-161 as I speculate on this. Having typed that, I agree that as years go by, paw-161 likely will be less relevant in regards taxation on income/savings. Further, having lived in Thailand, I note many times changes are talked about but do not come to pass. I suspect most expatiates note that - which does leave uncertainty. Still, given paw-161 ( 'exempting' one's pre-1-Jan-2024 foreign savings from Thai tax), and given many times talk about tax changes doesn't come to pass - I believe it premature to caution future condo buyers to pause. of course this is based on my speculation. One needs to make their own judgement call. I could be wrong. Further I am not tracking the real estate market - and maybe its over priced ... I do recall how it was here in Thailand in the second half of 1997. I also note, that if I had MISTAKENLY waited until today, to purchase the condo that I purchased in 2016, it would have cost me 30% to 35% more today - so I am glad I did not listen to the 'nay sayers' who stated to me then not to buy - but they advised me to wait. Since 2016 I have obtained decent use of my condo. Buying then was a smart move the way things turned out. Its really difficult to predict the future. I also tend to agree the 800k / 400k / 65k could increase in the future. Possibly sooner than many would like. My hope is such does not happen - and again , my agreement could be wrong. For those expatriates who don't have business nor family ties with Thailand, and whose health is not an issue, then spending only 49% of the year in Thailand, and 51% in 2 or more countries, could be an interesting life choice. There is a LOT to different countries in this world, there is a LOT to experience, and if one has the financial resources without the family ties, then seeing the world is a dream of many of us. With regard to Thailand attempting to attract those with money, sometimes I speculate that perhaps there are different business and social forces pulling within Thailand, and while some in the Thai government wish to attract foreigners with their money, ... others might only want to attract the foreign money without the foreigners. But that is pure speculation by me. Interesting times, and I hope that when the dust settles considering these potential changes, that the impact will be minimal. But that is only a hope. I for one, can't see the future. I can only speculate.

51 billion ÷ 4.6 million = 11,087 units bought by foreigners. I was surprised to read of so many condos being purchased by foreigners. I would have speculated 1/3 that number.

I tend to agree that 90% may be an exaggeration. My experience in 2016 when condo hunting ( researching many dozens of places) was that 1 out of 3 places were not on the market ( and were inappropriately listed) and 2 out of 3 were validly listed on the market. But that was 2016. This is almost 2025. Have things changed that much since 2016? I don't know. I tend to speculate little has changed.

I like to use the words "Is there a way to legally minimize my tax obligations" ... as opposed to "avoid to pay tax" (per the thread title). Granted I think for most the intent is close to the same - but 'avoiding tax' terminology can get a 'bad rap'. In addition to considerations in regards to the specific thresholds (of income) for tax filing, and paying tax, as noted aspects such as the Double Tax Agreement (DTA) between Thailand and the foreign country where one's income is sourced, is also a factor, which may mean more money (than the nominal Thailand income tax payment threshold) could be brought into Thailand without being subject to Thai tax. Every DTA is different, so one needs to examine the DTA relevant to their own country. Further a recent (Nov-2023) Thailand Revenue Department (RD) document, paw-161, notes, that any foreign income or foreign savings brought into Thailand before 1-Jan-2024, is not taxable. At least that is my understanding, and IF that is correct, then one can legally bring even more money earned and saved from before 1-Jan-2024 (than the taxation thresholds) into Thailand without having to pay Thailand tax on such. I find the Taxation filing requirements (given aspects such as paw.161, and LTR visa) a bit less clear, hence I am trying to watch what I see as a developing clarity on this, as best as I can. Best wishes in managing your tax situation.

That's also my view. Each individual needs to consider their own circumstances and plan (best they can) accordingly. The great thing about threads such as this (if we can all do our best to be civil to each other, including myself) is that we exchange knowledge, and we have our misunderstandings corrected, and we can help correct the misunderstandings of others - while sharing, and advancing the knowledge in regards to potential taxation management. Armed with such knowledge, we can better plan. Best wishes.

No dispute there from me ... The post thou was in response to a claim by someone who stated there was "NO RESALE" value from a foreign owned condo. My view on that is that one may end up with much less money (from their condo) when selling, or they may end up with some more (above purchase price) when selling, but they will have some money. "NO RESALE VALUE" is inaccurate (if not accompanied by a clarification that they are referring to 'profit'). One point to note re:real estate where I live in Phuket, is when COVID hit, rental prices dropped in the area where I lived by about 50%. COVID is over now, and rental prices have more than doubled since the COVID days ... even tripled in some cases, So I believe when assessing the low (or no or loss) return from owning, one also has to consider: (1) potential for escalating rental costs, and (2) a bit more (albeit maybe not much more) freedom to modify one's place as an owner, as opposed to just being a tenant. Yes - there is a LOT of construction going on in KhaoKhad (in far south of Phuket) at present, and I suspect such will continue for next few years. The places being built are very upmarket, with what I view as insanely high (far far too high) prices for both buyers and renters. Such new luxury places is IMHO one of the factors for the recent price increases for sales (and rentals) of condo units in the complex where I live. Of course the CJPM/Committee being committed to improving the condo is also another factor. I know of another condo complex close to Cape Panwa area where value of condo units has dramatically dropped as the condo complex has fallen a bit into disrepair. As you note, I do like the Khao Khad views, and relative isolation from the heavy traffic areas of Phuket. .

That's also my understanding from PAW.161. The money can be outside of Thailand before 01.01.2024, brought in, and not be taxable. However these Thai RD tax interpretations are relatively new, and given "This Is Thailand" those expats who are very conservative AND who also have the luxury (of money already in Thailand) can wait a few years and see what transpires in practice in regards to the need to not only not pay tax but also any need (or no need) to file a tax return to Thaliand.

I think we are in agreement that most expats in Thailand don't plan to live off of savings pre-deposited in Thailand for the remainder of their lives. That was never the point of my post. However, the POINT is that for the next few years, those that have the luxury of living off of such savings for just a few years (with savings already pre-positioned in Thailand) can "sit back" and observe how the tax situation in Thailand evolves, before rushing to any decisions in regards to their tax management approach. Since they have no Thai sourced income, and since they are not bringing money into Thailand (for next few years), they can legally not file a Thai tax return at present time, and do not need to apply for a Thai tax ID at present time. I state that based on what I was specifically advised by a Phuket based Thai RD official. Further, I note, with Paw.161, any foreign sourced income prior to 1-Jan-2024 and any foreign savings PRIOR to 1-Jan-2024, can be brought into Thailand tax free. After a few more years (possibly less), I suspect there should be more agreement as to the income tax filing requirements for each expat's different situation. So to re-iterate the POINT is those with such luxury of in-Thailand savings can wait, until the situation is more clear. Sadly, I suspect that the expats who may be the most affected in Thailand by taxation changes could be those who don't qualify for an LTR visa where they mostly live from foreign sourced 'pay check to pay check' (or foreign pension payment to pension payment) if such money exceeds some certain relatively low level TBD amount of money (but less than LTR visa criteria), AND if their foreign income is not already "protected" by a DTA with the specific source country of the foreign 'pension'/'paycheck'/'investments'. As previously noted elsewhere by others, those expats in the higher income bracket likely have different ways at their disposal to minimize any tax impact on them. It likely behooves each expat in Thailand to look at their own financial situation and assess the impact (if any) on themselves.

One way to get a tax-ID is to apply online. That online application will go to Bangkok, and they will likely forward the application to your local provincial (?) Revenue Department, who might end up calling you. Likely they will want from you your source of income. If your income is from outside of Thailand they will likely want to know if you have/are bringing the income into Thailand after 31-Dec-2023, ... AND very important they will want confirmation you spend >180 days per tax (calendar) year in Thailand. If you don't spend >180 days per tax (calendar) year in Thailand, or if you have no Thai income AND you are not bringing foreign income into Thailand (which is possible if you are living off of income brought into Thailand before 31-Dec-2023 when you were NOT a Thai tax resident) - then in those cases they may initially deny you a Thai tax ID. That's what happened to me. However if you insist that you need the tax-ID (say to recover some withholding tax on Thai bank accounts, or be because you plan to bring money into Thailand soon) then they may give you a Tax-ID. My having typed that I think your next point very salient: That should work IMHO. You may end up spending some time thou, at the local TRD, while they try to figure out what to do with you. Best wishes and luck on this.

I agree. Everyone needs to look at their own financial situation in regards to source income (location/amounts) and also the time they wish to spend in Thailand , and the Thai visa that they have. For some it makes financial sense not to be a Thai resident. For others it does make financial sense to stay in Thailand and be considered a Thai resident.

In the case of German pensions (only) : German - Thai DTA. It passes taxation rights for German pensions to Thailand, the country of residency (assuming one is a resident of Thailand).

There are EU countries (Germany for example) where pension is NOT taxed in the source country (Germany) for non-residents of Germany who are residents of Thailand. Read the German-Thailand DTA if you don't believe me. The German Taxation authorities even sent me a letter stating such, and asked that if my tax situation did not change, that i should stop filing a German tax return for my German pension income. I don't know about other EU countries, but the DTA of different EU countries with Thailand is VERY relevant here and blanket statements (that taxes MUST be paid at source for EU) are typically inaccurate - as there are exceptions.