oldcpu

It can often be difficult to predict the future. I recall when I purchased a condo in 2016 in Phuket (with intent to move to Phuket from Europe in 2017, upon a planned retirement), and advise was given to me to NOT buy: 1. Some stated never buy in Thailand for first year or so after a move to Thailand - - ALWAYS rent first. Nominally - I think ok advice, although in my case I had lived previous in Thailand from 1997 to 1999, and at the time (in 2016) I had been married to my Thai wife for 15 years, and every year we visited Thailand for a few weeks. So I think that 'specific don't buy' advise was not really applicable to myself, and 2. another friend (who claimed to know ins-outs of Thailand, pushed the view the Thai economy and real estate market would 'tank' and 'collapse' when the previous King passed away (where the King was very ill then). I couldn't see the same royal connection on the economy that they insisted was correct. Well we have a new Thai King, and the Thai economy doesn't appear to be significantly worse as a result. It did not hurt the real-estate market. So I saw then (and see now) that as a mistaken view. Now I view the possibility of taxation more serious wrt a risk of an impact - but I am not (yet) a believer we will see a big impact on most expatriates. I do thou note I don't have a good sense on the financial situation of most expatriates, which makes the future difficult to predict. Also, often when laws are applied, there is a grandfather clause, and I speculate (where 'speculate is the operative word' ) that any who bring in pre-1-Jan-2024 (savings/income) money into Thailand now to purchase a condo, are not likely to have a tax issue with the money they brought in. Further, I note paw-161 as I speculate on this. Having typed that, I agree that as years go by, paw-161 likely will be less relevant in regards taxation on income/savings. Further, having lived in Thailand, I note many times changes are talked about but do not come to pass. I suspect most expatiates note that - which does leave uncertainty. Still, given paw-161 ( 'exempting' one's pre-1-Jan-2024 foreign savings from Thai tax), and given many times talk about tax changes doesn't come to pass - I believe it premature to caution future condo buyers to pause. of course this is based on my speculation. One needs to make their own judgement call. I could be wrong. Further I am not tracking the real estate market - and maybe its over priced ... I do recall how it was here in Thailand in the second half of 1997. I also note, that if I had MISTAKENLY waited until today, to purchase the condo that I purchased in 2016, it would have cost me 30% to 35% more today - so I am glad I did not listen to the 'nay sayers' who stated to me then not to buy - but they advised me to wait. Since 2016 I have obtained decent use of my condo. Buying then was a smart move the way things turned out. Its really difficult to predict the future. I also tend to agree the 800k / 400k / 65k could increase in the future. Possibly sooner than many would like. My hope is such does not happen - and again , my agreement could be wrong. For those expatriates who don't have business nor family ties with Thailand, and whose health is not an issue, then spending only 49% of the year in Thailand, and 51% in 2 or more countries, could be an interesting life choice. There is a LOT to different countries in this world, there is a LOT to experience, and if one has the financial resources without the family ties, then seeing the world is a dream of many of us. With regard to Thailand attempting to attract those with money, sometimes I speculate that perhaps there are different business and social forces pulling within Thailand, and while some in the Thai government wish to attract foreigners with their money, ... others might only want to attract the foreign money without the foreigners. But that is pure speculation by me. Interesting times, and I hope that when the dust settles considering these potential changes, that the impact will be minimal. But that is only a hope. I for one, can't see the future. I can only speculate.

51 billion ÷ 4.6 million = 11,087 units bought by foreigners. I was surprised to read of so many condos being purchased by foreigners. I would have speculated 1/3 that number.

I tend to agree that 90% may be an exaggeration. My experience in 2016 when condo hunting ( researching many dozens of places) was that 1 out of 3 places were not on the market ( and were inappropriately listed) and 2 out of 3 were validly listed on the market. But that was 2016. This is almost 2025. Have things changed that much since 2016? I don't know. I tend to speculate little has changed.

I like to use the words "Is there a way to legally minimize my tax obligations" ... as opposed to "avoid to pay tax" (per the thread title). Granted I think for most the intent is close to the same - but 'avoiding tax' terminology can get a 'bad rap'. In addition to considerations in regards to the specific thresholds (of income) for tax filing, and paying tax, as noted aspects such as the Double Tax Agreement (DTA) between Thailand and the foreign country where one's income is sourced, is also a factor, which may mean more money (than the nominal Thailand income tax payment threshold) could be brought into Thailand without being subject to Thai tax. Every DTA is different, so one needs to examine the DTA relevant to their own country. Further a recent (Nov-2023) Thailand Revenue Department (RD) document, paw-161, notes, that any foreign income or foreign savings brought into Thailand before 1-Jan-2024, is not taxable. At least that is my understanding, and IF that is correct, then one can legally bring even more money earned and saved from before 1-Jan-2024 (than the taxation thresholds) into Thailand without having to pay Thailand tax on such. I find the Taxation filing requirements (given aspects such as paw.161, and LTR visa) a bit less clear, hence I am trying to watch what I see as a developing clarity on this, as best as I can. Best wishes in managing your tax situation.

That's also my view. Each individual needs to consider their own circumstances and plan (best they can) accordingly. The great thing about threads such as this (if we can all do our best to be civil to each other, including myself) is that we exchange knowledge, and we have our misunderstandings corrected, and we can help correct the misunderstandings of others - while sharing, and advancing the knowledge in regards to potential taxation management. Armed with such knowledge, we can better plan. Best wishes.

No dispute there from me ... The post thou was in response to a claim by someone who stated there was "NO RESALE" value from a foreign owned condo. My view on that is that one may end up with much less money (from their condo) when selling, or they may end up with some more (above purchase price) when selling, but they will have some money. "NO RESALE VALUE" is inaccurate (if not accompanied by a clarification that they are referring to 'profit'). One point to note re:real estate where I live in Phuket, is when COVID hit, rental prices dropped in the area where I lived by about 50%. COVID is over now, and rental prices have more than doubled since the COVID days ... even tripled in some cases, So I believe when assessing the low (or no or loss) return from owning, one also has to consider: (1) potential for escalating rental costs, and (2) a bit more (albeit maybe not much more) freedom to modify one's place as an owner, as opposed to just being a tenant. Yes - there is a LOT of construction going on in KhaoKhad (in far south of Phuket) at present, and I suspect such will continue for next few years. The places being built are very upmarket, with what I view as insanely high (far far too high) prices for both buyers and renters. Such new luxury places is IMHO one of the factors for the recent price increases for sales (and rentals) of condo units in the complex where I live. Of course the CJPM/Committee being committed to improving the condo is also another factor. I know of another condo complex close to Cape Panwa area where value of condo units has dramatically dropped as the condo complex has fallen a bit into disrepair. As you note, I do like the Khao Khad views, and relative isolation from the heavy traffic areas of Phuket. .

That's also my understanding from PAW.161. The money can be outside of Thailand before 01.01.2024, brought in, and not be taxable. However these Thai RD tax interpretations are relatively new, and given "This Is Thailand" those expats who are very conservative AND who also have the luxury (of money already in Thailand) can wait a few years and see what transpires in practice in regards to the need to not only not pay tax but also any need (or no need) to file a tax return to Thaliand.

I think we are in agreement that most expats in Thailand don't plan to live off of savings pre-deposited in Thailand for the remainder of their lives. That was never the point of my post. However, the POINT is that for the next few years, those that have the luxury of living off of such savings for just a few years (with savings already pre-positioned in Thailand) can "sit back" and observe how the tax situation in Thailand evolves, before rushing to any decisions in regards to their tax management approach. Since they have no Thai sourced income, and since they are not bringing money into Thailand (for next few years), they can legally not file a Thai tax return at present time, and do not need to apply for a Thai tax ID at present time. I state that based on what I was specifically advised by a Phuket based Thai RD official. Further, I note, with Paw.161, any foreign sourced income prior to 1-Jan-2024 and any foreign savings PRIOR to 1-Jan-2024, can be brought into Thailand tax free. After a few more years (possibly less), I suspect there should be more agreement as to the income tax filing requirements for each expat's different situation. So to re-iterate the POINT is those with such luxury of in-Thailand savings can wait, until the situation is more clear. Sadly, I suspect that the expats who may be the most affected in Thailand by taxation changes could be those who don't qualify for an LTR visa where they mostly live from foreign sourced 'pay check to pay check' (or foreign pension payment to pension payment) if such money exceeds some certain relatively low level TBD amount of money (but less than LTR visa criteria), AND if their foreign income is not already "protected" by a DTA with the specific source country of the foreign 'pension'/'paycheck'/'investments'. As previously noted elsewhere by others, those expats in the higher income bracket likely have different ways at their disposal to minimize any tax impact on them. It likely behooves each expat in Thailand to look at their own financial situation and assess the impact (if any) on themselves.

One way to get a tax-ID is to apply online. That online application will go to Bangkok, and they will likely forward the application to your local provincial (?) Revenue Department, who might end up calling you. Likely they will want from you your source of income. If your income is from outside of Thailand they will likely want to know if you have/are bringing the income into Thailand after 31-Dec-2023, ... AND very important they will want confirmation you spend >180 days per tax (calendar) year in Thailand. If you don't spend >180 days per tax (calendar) year in Thailand, or if you have no Thai income AND you are not bringing foreign income into Thailand (which is possible if you are living off of income brought into Thailand before 31-Dec-2023 when you were NOT a Thai tax resident) - then in those cases they may initially deny you a Thai tax ID. That's what happened to me. However if you insist that you need the tax-ID (say to recover some withholding tax on Thai bank accounts, or be because you plan to bring money into Thailand soon) then they may give you a Tax-ID. My having typed that I think your next point very salient: That should work IMHO. You may end up spending some time thou, at the local TRD, while they try to figure out what to do with you. Best wishes and luck on this.

I agree. Everyone needs to look at their own financial situation in regards to source income (location/amounts) and also the time they wish to spend in Thailand , and the Thai visa that they have. For some it makes financial sense not to be a Thai resident. For others it does make financial sense to stay in Thailand and be considered a Thai resident.

In the case of German pensions (only) : German - Thai DTA. It passes taxation rights for German pensions to Thailand, the country of residency (assuming one is a resident of Thailand).

There are EU countries (Germany for example) where pension is NOT taxed in the source country (Germany) for non-residents of Germany who are residents of Thailand. Read the German-Thailand DTA if you don't believe me. The German Taxation authorities even sent me a letter stating such, and asked that if my tax situation did not change, that i should stop filing a German tax return for my German pension income. I don't know about other EU countries, but the DTA of different EU countries with Thailand is VERY relevant here and blanket statements (that taxes MUST be paid at source for EU) are typically inaccurate - as there are exceptions.

No. I stated why it "could" (ie why it could be the extra work results in nothing happening). I never stated "will" . That is your deliberate misconstruing of another's post. I find it difficult to believe English is your first language given your inability to know the difference between "could" and "will ". Serious. Are you trying to invent someone to debate with by misconstruing their views? That is how it looks. Such misconstruing the views of others (when they state "could" as opposed to "will") shows a major effort on your part to deliberately misconstrue someone's elses post - probably to grind your own axe. As for reasons why such will (or wlll not) happen. I do NOT have reasons why it "WILL" or "WILL NOT" . OK? Lets be clear. As for reasons why it could happen, I think you stated such. OK? You really need to learn the difference between "will" and "could". I see no point in replying further on this, given you deliberately misconstrue what others state (or you simply do not understand differences in word use in the English language). EDIT: To help you here: "The main difference between "could" and "will" is that "could" suggests uncertainty or a conditional outcome, while "will" indicates a stronger intention or certainty." .

No. " will " is your words. " could " is the word I choose. Read again the relevant posts.

Did you mean this link: https://asianafrican.org/thailands-2025-global-income-tax-key-impacts-for-residents-and-investors/ The one you provided gives a 404 error.

I think I was clear , and you even quoted me on it, where i typed "Could a Tax Clearance Certificate happen for 1-year annual extensions happen? Possibly. And possibly not. This is Thailand and I have no predictions." I assume English is your 2nd language? There is an important distinction between "could" and "would" or "will". I specifically typed "could". And I typed "possibly" and "possibly not". I also typed "I have no predictions". That is a FAR CRY from "will not" . What part of that do you not understand? How can I explain that better for you?

I have no intention to sell. Still ... There is LIMITED land that can offer sea views (the sort of incredible view my condo unit has). So where there is a limited desirable location, the price goes up. That is market forces. Market forces - something I believe you also agree is a key factor - has driven up the price. So to claim "no resale value" (those are NOT my words - they are your words). So "no resale value". .... Serious? That is so wrong - I TRIED to be polite in reply but do you really want to go down this road of discussion, saying "NO RESALE" value, when clearly there is some resale value. Yes - possibly less value for some (although they do get some). And MORE value for others (who make a profit) - where as I pointed out, current sellers in the complex where I live are earning 35% on the original purchase value. That is VERY VERY VERY far your claim of "NO RESALE VALUE". Those (NO RESALE VALUE words) are not my words. Often, massive exaggerations do not help one's case in a discussion.

With respect, if I understood correctly that small part of your post that I quoted, that is not accurate. Yes many condos fall in value ( where I once read Thais prefer new condos). However some also go up in value, especially if the condo CJPM and Committee work to maintain and even improve the condo. Asking ( and selling/buying ) prices in the condo complex in Phuket where I live are about 35% higher than what they were 6 years ago.

We will need to wait and see. MANY predicted Type-O non-immigrant visa route would follow the path of the Type-OA visa and require health insurance. Opinions on this were INCREDIBLY STRONG. Has it happened yet? No. Could a Tax Clearance Certificate happen for 1-year annual extensions happen? Possibly. And possibly not. This is Thailand and I have no predictions. I think we will need to wait and see.

I hope such won't be required for 1-year extensions of Type-O/OA visas. The 'tax clearance certificate' is already on the books, albeit it was put in place years ago for those departing Thailand (and not put in place for annual extensions). Once can read about the certificate here on the Thai Revenue Department page: https://www.rd.go.th/english/23518.html While the certificate still exists on line, some time back (long before my moving to Thailand in 2019) its enforcement was stopped. Requiring such for an extension would mean more work for everyone ... more work for the Expat, more work for the Revenue department, and more work for immigration. So hopefully that will discourage any thought to tuning the certificate for extension approvals and discourage any implementation. .

I believe everyone does have to do a 90 day report, except for those on an LTR visa where it's an annual report for them. .. And departing Thailand and re-entering Thailand will reset the reporting "clock".

Fifth selection: I don't believe I am liable for tax, but my (tax exempt income) may be considered assessable IF I were to bring it into Thailand (even thou tax exempt). So being uncertain if a tax return may be required, I applied for a TIN, but since I am not bringing money into Thailand I was denied a TIN. (The reason I am not bringing money into Thailand is that I have funds adequate for a few years and I want to wait and see how the tax return submission requirements turn out in practice (for the majority of expatriates who don't physically work in Thailand and for LTR-WP visa holders) before I start bringing money into Thailand again).

My understanding is that the TM47/TM30 are one's registrations for immigration purposes. However those do NOT help when it comes to property tax for condo ownership in Thailand. For home (condo) ownership purposes (so to NOT pay property tax on one's condo in Thailand), I had thought (and still think) one needs to register at the local city district office that one owns a condo in Thailand and that this is one's 1st residence (home) when in Thailand. If one is thus registered as such at the district office , one then does not have to pay annual property tax on one's condo. Part of this (somewhat IMHO painful) process of registering results in one obtaining the Yellow book for the property. I believe only Thai citizens or falang permanent residents to Thailand can have their name in the Blue book. But I may have the above incorrect.

Indeed - it is complicated if funds all mixed in one account. I believe (albeit uncertain) that in the case of paying tax (on Capital gains) in Canada, one can at the end of any taxation year, declare a capital gain on a financial instrument, even thou one has not liquidated it. ie one would use (and keep) an official brokerage statement that notes on (say 31-Dec-2023) at year end the financial instrument was worth some TBD amount if it were in cash. Then AFTER declaring that on one's tax form, any subsequent change in valuation of that financial instrument would be a gain, or a loss. This leads me to speculate (where CLEARLY 'speculate' is the operative word) that if one has a brokerage statement for the close of business on 31-Dec-2023, can one then declare (keep a record) of that as the CASH value of that asset. And then add the declared/recorded 'cash value' together with any actual cash, to produce a 'total declared CASH' estimate value. After that the keep a spreadsheet of all account cash transactions (of money taken out). Once the cash taken out surpasses the 'total declared/recorded 31-Dec-2023' cash value, than any other amount must be income. Would that sort of tracking be acceptable? Possibly not. Possibly. Clearly this is PURE speculation by me - but I do note other tax jurisdictions allow one to declare a financial instrument's value without liquidating. I assume over the course of the next decade, how Thai RD treats such will (maybe) become more clear. .

Looking closer it appears those two above PDF links I posted are for year 2022 and year 2023 taxation years. One for year 2022 and the other for year 2023 (for LTR Highly Skilled Professionals). There is no way on that tax form to select any other LTR visa holder. For all I know (as I don't know) those forms could have been there for a long time.