oldcpu

This is good for those from the UK - but as you note further , many of us are not from UK. However I would like to make a minor point here. Many read 'Government pension' and confuse that with a pension to a government civil servant with a pension given to a qualified UK citizen or UK resident. The differences between "government" pension and "state" pension are lost on many. So just referring to a DTA can often simply not clarify due to there not being a full definition of the terminology used. Thanks for the offer. The German-Thai DTA is actually more of interest to me at present than the Canada-Thai DTA - although I am curious about both, but not in need of immediate help. When 161 and 162 came out, before the end of calendar year 2023, I made an effort to bring into Thailand enough funds to last me for more than a few years in Thailand - while the tax situation became more clear. So at present - I bring no money into Thailand. Also, as noted I may go to the Phuket tax office next year and sit on their door step until they give me a TIN. But a local Phuket RD official made it clear that for the tax year 2024 as long as I brought no foreign money into Thailand (and given my Thai sourced income too small), that I did not need to file a Thai tax return for the tax year 2024 nor did he want to give me a TIN. I obtain foreign income in Canada and in Germany (which I am not bringing into Thailand at present) so I need to be aware of both German and Canadian DTAs with Thailand - and further I obtain a pension from a European government organization (where at the moment I leave that money in Europe), which as a European Government organization is not a singular country when dealing with Thailand. Possibly the German DTA applies there (as I lived in Germany at the time when I qualified for that pension) and possibly not. Also my being on an LTR visa may (or may not) exempt me from filing a tax return IF I were to bring money into Thailand - and maybe it won't exempt me from filing a tax return IF I bring money into Thailand. Again, I have the luxury to sit this out and wait. Possibly the only thing to make me want a TIN sooner, is some income I will get on a life-insurance/investment/pension plan that comes to maturity in Germany next year (2025 tax year), and I need to decide how to handle that tax wise (as it may be to my taxation benefit to have a Thai tax # then for the year-2025 tax year).

Deleted - finger trouble premature post

Good suggestion. I restarted an old thread on Canada/Thai DTA with THAT EXACT SUGGESTION in mind - but the interest was pretty minimal - not surprising I think, as there are not that many Canadian expats in Thailand.

I think if one is in Thailand on a work visa, one can get a Pink-ID without need of a Yellow Book. But I suspect that if here in Thailand on a Type-O/OA for reason of retirement or marriage (to a Thai), the Yellow Book may be a prerequisite (however I do NOT know for certain). I posted already I applied on line for a TIN, which the Bankgok office referred to the Phuket Office, where the Phuket office (initially) refused. I suspect if I go knocking on their door and sit in their office all day, I might be able to get the Phuket RD office to change their mind, and grant me a tax-ID (ie activate my pink-ID number to be an active TIN). However I am in no hurry to do such as (1) as of 31-Dec-2023 I am bringing no money into Thailand, and (2) I am on an LTR visa.. I might thou sit at the local Phuket RD office for a full day sometime next year (to get a Thai tax-ID) , as I have a German life-insurance/investment/retirement fund coming due, to which I will likely take a cash payout (and be subject to profit) ... and I am pondering then if having a Thai tax ID might be beneficial (so to get a Thai tax certificate to show German authorities). < unsure > I need to research this some more.

With respect ... the DTAs are not written in a language that is easy for the every day person to understand ... and their use of contracting state, other contracting state, and the word "may" can be confusing at times. .

What I have done is kept a financial record of what was in my foreign accounts at the close of business on Friday 29-Dec-2023. I have also kept a record of any withdrawals from that account in year 2024, such that if ever audited, I can prove that I had sufficient funds in that account to prove it credible that all subsequent withdrawals was money saved from before 1-Jan-2024. My speculation is one will only need to prove such to Thailand RD if audited - and hence it will be good to keep organized records on this.

I suspect this the case. Last week I did a transfer of $5000 Canadian to my Wise multi currency account. It took about 24 hours. Pretty much the same time as it would take 4 years ago. No change noticeable in timing in that case for the transfer to take place. Further Australian $ have been transferred to my Wise multi currency account routinely every month or so for more than the past 6 months. Again, less than 24 hours for each of the transfers to take place. As noted in the quote - I suspect the time it takes to get a transfer completed on Wise depends not only on the amount , but also the country of origin (and country of destination in other cases).

If my memory serves me correctly, sometime back Wise changed the details of the Australian wise accounts. I can't recall the timing or details at present, but it was not in the past few weeks, but rather announced a good number of months ago. However there may have been a grace period associated with this. I recommend contacting Wise directly to attempt to obtain clarification and details on this.

That should read: apologies for the mix up in placement of the Nov-2023 date. I was using an editor on my mobile phone and mistakenly added date in wrong place in the sentence.

Can you prove the money was savings from before 1-Jan-2024? (perhaps unlikely given this was for a loan you wish to pay back - but I don't know your financial details - and I do not want to make any assumptions) My understanding (and others can correct me if I am wrong) is if you had the money needed to payback the loan, in a foreign account prior to 1-Jan-2024 (which the RD issued in Nov-2023), then per Paw.162 you can bring it into Thailand and it will not be taxable and possibly < unsure > not assessable. Again - others can correct me if wrong. If it is not assessable then it need not be declared.

When I was on a Type-O I switched from Bangkok Bank to Krungsri, where Krungsri would issue the paperwork on the spot. To avoid complications, I had the 800k seasoned in Krungsri for a year prior to switching from Bangkok Bank to Krungsri, ... but I suspect it must be possible to switch without doing such (for someone who does not have the extra funds). There are good things about Bangkok Bank, but for one who lives in Phuket, issuing the paperwork quickly (needed for proof of the 800K THB in one's Bangkok bank account) is not one of their good things. They (Bangkok Bank) are slow in doing that.

I'm on an LTR visa now and no longer need to do a 90-day report. But I was on Type-OA/O visas for some years, where I did have to do 90-day reports. The immigration office I would go to is in Phuket. I can't recall the on-line ever working for me (and I never ceased trying). However Phuket immigration has a 'drive through' where one remains in their car and drives to a booth at immigration, and one can pass their passport through the car window. It normally works great - and its only a ~15 minute car drive away from where I live. I also recall once where I forgot (almost) to do my 90-day report. It was the evening of the 6th day AFTER the 90-day report due, and I realized I forgot. The next morning I rushed to Phuket immigration. The drive through booth was closed ! So I parked my car and went into the immigration building. The Phuket volunteers who do the initial screening advised me I was likely out of luck, as the computer system was down, and probably I would have to return a day later, and pay the fine for doing my report late !! But at my request they gave me a 'waiting #' so I could talk to a Thai immigration officer (IO). When my # called, I very politely chatted to the IO. He filled in some paper work (so my info could be entered later by immigration when the computers came back online) and confirmed my 90-day successful. No fine as I was within the 7-day grace period. This was extra work on the immigration part - and it was me who was using every day of the '7-day' grace given for late 90-day reports. Still - I was very happy with immigration in this case. Phuket immigration is almost always VERY busy - with big lines. In general I am impressed with the immigration in this province, given that even after the office closes, the employees are often still there working late, processing the paperwork.

Brings back memories - getting my Yellow Book & Pink-ID was not easy. Fortunately I had the translations and certifications done previous when registering my foreign marriage to my Thai wife (we were married in Canada) here in Thailand. ... I recall (from my perspective) it being a bit of pain to get the Yellow book & pink-ID. I asked my wife a couple of times (is this book/ID necessary?) , and received in return the "WIFE LOOK" (don't question her) ... so we put up with the bureaucracy and eventually obtained both the Yellow Book & Pink ID. My wife was more happy about this than myself (I was just happy to get it all over with regardless as to the outcome), ... and as I typed before "A happy wife is a happy life". 😂

Assuming he was quoted accurately in context, that tax expert should research more. Phuket branch of Thai RD refused to give me a TIN even though I spend >180 days here. Other factors also come in to the equation.

My understanding on this (perhaps speculation is the absolute best wording) is that after the directions/orders of 161 and 162, the Thai RD will possibly consider any money brought into Thailand after 31-Dec-2023 may have been income - and an expat (if audited) will need to show to RD they had such money prior to 1-jan-2024 (keeping DTAs in mind which could change the assessment). I speculate it would not matter how one buy's/sells/structures the money. If one can not in an audit show one had the cash (and possibly equity equivalent value in a currency) before 1-Jan-2024 then a remittance may be considered income, and the justification become less solid - and perhaps one may have problems in an audit (pure speculation by myself) if the remitted money can not be shown to exist in some form with a specific value on 31-Dec-2023 ... I should state also, that DTAs definitely come in to play here. Of course this tracking of the origin of remitted income before 1-Jan-2024 is clear if held in cash before1-Jan-2024 .. and possibly obscured a bit for equity income ... but nominally one transfers (via financial institutions) cash into the country. If money is in a brokerage account, one can typically (at least I can) obtain a statement for 31-Dec-2023 giving the net value of one's equities as a currency figure (such as US$ or Canadian $ or Euros or some other currency). I see that paper record as vital. However my speculation is no different from anyone else's speculation.

Many of the expats I talk to have never heard of the differentiation. With respect, I think your understanding is so advanced here - that things are now 100% clear and correct for you, are not yet for others - and they don't see the difference (yet).

With regard to that link, it does not list any exceptions ... and it does not differentiate assessable income from not-assessable income. I assume (incorrectly? correctly? ) that difference is important. I just watched a relatively recent EXPATTAX youtube video intended for Canadians residing in Thailand. They claimed one whose only income is from a Canadian pension or from a Canadian RRSP (which is sort of like a government registered privately managed pension) would (1) not have to file a Thai tax return, and (2) not pay Thai tax on such income, despite residing in Thailand > 180 days. One would thou pay Canadian tax on such. They reference the Thai/Canadian DTA as their justification for that. They give a hypothetical case study were a Canadian expat living in Thailand brings in 2-million baht in one calendar/tax year from their RRSP and claim for such a case, if that is the only income, that no Thai tax return is needed. Again, the DTA is their justification. The point here is that I assume such would be considered not-assessable income, and hence the Thai baht amount I quoted not applicable as even thou the link you posted does not state such, it refers to only assessable income. But for expats - I do believe it is very important to distinguish and accurately know which of their income sources are assessable and which are not assessable. I see no mentioning aspects associated with assessable/not-assessable income as a major failing in that link (assuming of course I am correct that the difference between assessable and 'not assessable' is important). For an expat who does not know better, they may simply assume all income is assessable, and that may not be the case.

On the subject of the Canada/Thailand DTA, and Thailand tax aspects for former residents of Canada who now live in Thailand, EXPATTAX services have a Youtube Video: They mostly state what most of us (who follow the taxation issues) already know. They did state a number of things, some of which were relevant to me, and confirmed what I deduced from the Canada/Thailand DTA: They have a slide on pensions from Canada. They claim if one's only source of income is pensions from Canada, then such pension is only taxable in Canada, and further the claim one does not need to file a Thai tax return for such pension money brought into Thailand if it is the only income. But if capital gains, dividends, or rental income are also brought into Thailand then a Thai tax return is required. They present some hypothetical 'case studies'. Their case study-1 is a Canadian, who is married and lives in Thailand and receives equivalent of 2-million THB from their RRSP. According to EXPATTAX, in such a case of money withdrawn from an RRSP (if that and other Canadian pensions are the only income source), no Thai income tax return need be filed and there is no Thai tax on the RRSP amount (they note in such a case, tax on the RRSP withdrawal amount will thou need to be paid in Canada). They also give hypothetical case studys on capital gains, and it starts getting a lot more complicated then. Of course such videos, are in part to advertise their services, where they provide their website and a contact email address. The video is VERY Canadian expat specific, ... its almost an hour long ... and it can be quite slow at times (at least for me it was). However, if one looks at the youtube description under the video, they give a time/linked list of what they discuss, where I believe that is very useful, so one is not forced to sit down through the entire video.

Interesting. You typed "USB" EUR account, but later you noted "UOB" account. I assume "USB" a typo for "UOB". So for UOB you noted you had to go to the Bangkok Bank branch where you opened your account (which was in Bangkok) to transfer Euros from Thailand foreign currency account to Belgium (without going through a Thai baht conversion). I note your Bangkok Bank foreign currency account was in US$. Were you trying in that case to transfer US$ from Bangkok bank to a Belgium based US$ foreign currency account? If so, I also wonder, did you investigate if the same was true with Bangkok Bank that was the case with UOB? ie was your Bangkok Bank branch US$ account initially in Bangkok or N.Ratchasima? Thanks for sharing.

I am not keen on looking at an 'integrity legal' video. Maybe on another day. Note this UK government website link on the UK/Thai double tax agreement: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thailand-tax-treaties

Not that it affects myself (as it does not) but there is, I believe, a DTA between Thailand and the UK.

To be more precise, if I had closed the Canadian RRSP and brought the money out in one shot, the tax rate to Canada would have been 33% (federal) + 25.75% (provincial) = 58.75% (ie even larger than 50% tax). So from a legal tax management perspective, as the years go by I will pull out a much smaller amount out of the RRSP (soon to be changed to something similar called an RRIF) every year, which will have a much lower taxation due to the yearly amounts withdrawn being smaller than the 'one shot' approach. Of course this is unique to me (and maybe some other Canadian expats from Canada who have very large RRSPs). Everyone needs to look at their own finances and tax management.

Yes - but I did not want to provide too much detail in my response in my above posts. But since you raise the point ..... Singapore/HK/Switzerland were only applicable for maybe 20% of my frozen assets (by the brokerage & bank in Canada) ... that could be transferred to them (but I did not). 80% were in what is known in Canada as a Registered Retirement Savings Plan (RRSP) [similar conceptually I think, to a US 401k] . This is a tax free account, where money is taxed only when it is withdrawn from the account. One can NOT transfer such a registered account to Singapore/HK/Switzerland without paying a massive amount of tax for the one shot transfer ... ie likely 50% tax ON THE ENTIRE AMOUNT likely due to the very large amount of money involved. So another approach was needed. And I am happy that the Thai TIN I provided IS legal. The Thailand RD official said as much himself, with the caveat it was not active for online tax submission. So I passed that exact same information to the Canadian financial institutions which they were perfectly happy to accept. They were told the TIN is not yet active. That saved me paying 50% tax on a VERY large amount of money (ie saved 50% which would have been the tax if the money in the RRSP were to be pulled out of the RRSP in one tax year and sent abroad).

I am probably an outlier in my view here - so I expect many confused/sad/laughing icons as a result. I agree that the Thai authorities don't worry that some affluent foreigners will be lost. The Thai tax authorities are intent on going after the affluent Thai (who have managed their assets to minimize tax) and if they impact foreigners (who live here in Thailand as well) then so be it - they are just going to treat foreigners the same in this case as they will attempt to treat the affluent Thai. And in parallel, they have programs such as the LTR visa, which BoI advertise as tax exempt for foreign income - intended to attract the affluent foreigners. Of course, this begs the question - how long will the LTR visa tax exemption for foreign income last ? But at least here they have a way to keep those the foreigners that they vedit/prove are wealthy to their criteria. So I don't see this as arrogance at all. Nor ignorance. They are trying to do their job to earn revenue for the country that it can then spend on the citizens/infrastructure/services. Many western countries, for residents, tax global income. Thailand is not there (yet) although clearly some senior people in the Thai RD would like to tax global income. Further, some western countries even try to tax non-residents to their country for global income. Case in point: Practically every second year I receive an official postal mail from Revenue Canada offering to treat me as a Canadian tax resident (even thou I reside in Thailand) as by doing so I could take advantage of more Canadian resident tax deductions. But by doing so, I would also have to pay tax to Canada on all my global income - which would cost me a LOT more money. Is the Canadian Revenue department being arrogant and ignorant? No - they are simply hoping I will be (ignorant) so that they can get more tax money from me - by taxing my global income, when I don't reside in Canada (but I reside in Thailand). I am thankful that Thailand, has what I consider more favourable (to myself) tax rules than Canada, and some other countries that I won't mention. I concede that, what should I say, 'the golden years' in Thailand re: taxation management may be starting to fade away ... but the affluent foreigner will likely find ways around such while still staying in Thailand,... possibly via LTR visa, or possibly by staying for only 179 days per year in Thailand, but ways will be found.

Its the best number I could provide. Clearly. The Phuket RD offiical himself stated it would be the tax ID # once activated (for online tax returns). That is 'straight from the horses mouth' as the saying goes. Further, I advised both the foreign bank and foreign brokerage, that the number would be the tax ID but it was not yet activated. That is the 100% truth. And they were happy with that. So you say its shaky? Why ? And what for me was the alternative? If I did not provide a tax ID, I would have been forced to close a substantial foreign account (or have it frozen) and in another case not open a foreign account (with a substantial amount). By my proceeding, I was able to trade on my new brokerage account resulting in a substantial financial return. Not as much as I would have liked (as my trading was frozen for over 1/2 year) but still by my books, substantial. All I did was tell truth and follow up with what was told me by a Thailand RD official, and provide the foreign banks that exact same information. A potential tax-ID that was not yet active - which they accepted. The alternative would have been to close my accounts with a massive amount in cash, not insured as it greatly exceeded the amount countries will insure in bank accounts. That IMHO was FAR FAR FAR more shaky (shaky because not having such cash funds 100% insured ) as compared to structured in more appropriate assets. I guess as the saying goes " you pays your money and you takes your chances". I think my passing on the truth was the best course of action (ie a likely tax-ID that was not yet activated). The approach to NOT provide such as a potential (yet to be activated) tax-ID is IMHO FAR FAR more shaky (shaky as without providing the tax-ID I would have had very large uninsured amounts in cash). .