oldcpu

5 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

 

So I need to set up my UK bank account to receive my three pensions........don't transfer anything for a year.....then claim future transfers are pension receipts from the previous year and therefore not taxable in Thailand?????

Not any more.  According to Paw.161/162, any new money remitted to Thailand that is income after 31-Dec-2023 is taxable in Thailand.  (Edit; dependent on one's DTA and other aspects)

Its the money from before 1-Jan-2024 that needs to be separated from new income after 31-Dec-2023.

Or am I misunderstanding your point?

40 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

My plan....anyone see any holes in this?

 

Open a new bank account in the UK to receive my state pension only......use that account for my 400,00 baht each year (marriage extension).....so tax free.

You lost me here.  The 400k baht for a marriage extension needs to be in a Thai bank account . 

So i don't see why you would want to open a new UK account, UNLESS you are trying to avoid co-mingling new pension income, from that money saved from before 1-Jan-2024 (reference paw.161/162), ... in which case, yes, that makes sense to me..

15 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

 

Yes, Thai wife, Thai bank account.....and I have my own Thai bank account.

 

Someone did suggest another way........just stick the 400k in my Thai account and 'forget about it'......just use that account every year for the extension based on marriage......but still keep the 'gift to the wife' idea going to cover our living expenses.

If the money you gift someone in Thailand, is used to help your own living expenses, then my understanding is that gift is no longer considered a tax exemption.

47 minutes ago, JimGant said:

That doesn't quite square with this:

 

Not that Expatthai gets it right every time......

The UK-Northern Ireland DTA with Thailand has to be one of the worst I read out of curiosity.  I am glad it doesn't involve me.

Its clear to me that retired UK civil servants pay tax in UK on their government provided pension (unless one is both a Thai citizen AND resident of Thailand).  Apologies if I have the terminology inaccurate.

But its FAR less clear in that DTA for the average Joe UK citizen, in receipt of a pension from the UK government, as to where the tax should be paid.

I would recommend any in receipt of a UK pension (who is not a civil service nor military pension) to double check on what Expatthai claim.

.

6 minutes ago, Presnock said:

probably because although the LTR has been around longer than this year, anyone having exempt foreign income would probably not have reported any.  But the work permit LTR has local income so the TRD should have seen the LTR previously when that person filed for the local taxes.

Yes, there is an tax return form (for tax year 2022 (?) and I assume later years) where LTR Highly Skilled Professional visa (only) is specifically mentioned in the form, but thus far no such mention in a Thai tax form for LTR-WP nor LTR-WGC nor LTR-WFTP visas.

8 minutes ago, Presnock said:

believe that the TRD will require some kind of govt document showing pension exemption or LTR showing BOI definition of exemption.

Quite possible some TBD time in the future.

But at present?   I don't think so yet.

When trying to obtain a Tax ID from Phuket RD last year (to support a possible 2024 tax return submission - which for my case they noted a Thai tax return not required as my 2024 tax year remittance to Thailand would be 0-THB AND I had no Thai income ), and when they were asked about LTR visa tax exemption, their reply?  They never heard of an LTR visa. 

They advised they would call back.  They never did call back. 

I assume that is because they had more important things that demanded their attention.

9 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Duh, if you have no assessable income, can't obtain an id number from the TRD then how can you file a tax return?  Rule number 1 if you haven't read it in the rules of getting a tax id from the TRD says you must have assessble income...

On the other side of the coin, ... I suspect if I really wanted to file a Thai tax return, that I could try harder. 

I type that noting the Phuket RD have already told me for my specific case that I need not file a tax return (for tax year 2024)) and further that the Phuket RD will not (yet) activate my pink-ID number for an online tax submission.

I probably could (to file a tax return) print out the tax-year-2023 tax form (since tax year 2024 is not ready yet), fill it in (using my pink-ID# as the TIN), and drive 40 minutes to the Phuket RD office, and sit in the office all day, while they tried to figure out what out to do with me, given I had no assessable income to place on the Thai tax return form. You know.  A form with all zeros.

... or they may just kick me out of their office after 10 minutes - shaking their heads at the crazy foreigner. 😄

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Quote

Far enough.  But for the moment I believe Thai tax law and Thai ministerial regulations (which include DTA) are the defining aspect here. 

Yes, I agree, right up until 31 March 2023.

 

I am also trying to point out that there is now another overarching set of Laws and rules that pertain to CRS that actually trump thai domestic tax laws ( To a certain extent, but certainly in terms of overseas remittances )

I was attempting to be succinct by using the word "here".

Clearly there  are cases wrt CRS and other aspects that are relevant.

But that is NOT relevant in regards to Thai law as written and how it impacts the average expat in following Thai law  in the context/scope of our discussion. Regardless as to what is in CRS, I will wager for the average expat 'Joe' in Thailand, if they follow Thai law, they will be ok.  At most they may have the Thai RD come back to them and state "a recent CRS agreement" requires the following ... blah ... blah ... blah.

But for now I believe it very important that Thai law (section-42) and Thai ministerial regulations (as further defined by paw-161/162 and Thai DTA) are most relevant here - and not what at most is what I see as vague statement about CRS with no specific reference as to how that requires an expat in Thailand to File a Thai tax return and how that requires a Thailand expat to report income on a Thai tax return.  IMHO that CRS reference is non-sequitur. 

Thai law is what needs to be followed unless a very specific exception can be pointed out - and I see no such CRS specific exception.

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The basis of my logic comes from ( apart from other countries )

Fair enough.  But for the moment I believe Thai tax law and Thai ministerial regulations (which include DTA) are the defining aspect here.  And they are clear that section-42 exempt income (in the Thai tax code) is not to be included in tax calculations.  And accordingly (?) Thai RD has deliberately (?) not included any place in their tax forms for such section-42 exempt income.

Again - I will continue to monitor this  -  and I propose you and others do so also. 

I appreciate your remaining very civil in this exchange of views.  I will attempt to try (even harder) to do the same.

15 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Where does it say in Article 42 that one does need to file a tax return ?

 

In short;  Section-42 states some cases are NOT to be included in a tax calculation.  There is no place in the Thai tax form for such  as well.

Detail:

Quote

Section 42 :  The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:
...
     (17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations.

= = =

I previously pointed out DTA and Royal Decree on taxation are likely included as "Ministerial regulations".  So in cases such income is exempt for the purpose of tax calculations.  

What does that tell you?

The Thai tax code states not to include income exempt for the purpose of income tax calculations, further the Thai RD includes no place for such income (listed in section-42) to be on a tax form, ... and you still want to file a tax return (if such section-42 covered exempt income is your only income)?

The only basis for your logic (that I can see) is perhaps you are projecting as to the way income tax is handled in the non-Thailand countries that you have lived in previously?

I am trying (albeit not always succeeding) to follow the intent and words of the law as established by Thailand.

My recommendation is for you to continue to look into this.  I know that is my intent also.

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

None of this is in dispute

 

I am asking how something can have an exemption to thai tax, or a tax credit on thai tax, if one has not filed a tax return.

 

If you do not file a tax return, then neither a tax credit or an exemption exists.

Not according to Thai revenue code article-42.

18 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

So if it is not included in a tax return, how can you have the following

Quote

Quote

To have something exempted, or to have a tax credit awarded, suggests that you have to actually file a tax return.

 

18 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

You cannot have a tax credit or be exempt something, if you have not done anything for the tax credit to be applied to, or for the exemption to take place.

How can one have?  As I typed before (I believe) it depends on the DTA between Thailand and the source country of one's income.  In some cases (in particular I am thinking of pension), the pension can ONLY be taxed in the source country, in other cases it can be taxed in BOTH countries (where one country has priority) and in other cases it can ONLY be taxed in Thailand.

3 minutes ago, kuzmabruk said:

From Thai Revenue Department in English

 

Foreign-sourced income

 

If a foreigner derives income from sources outside Thailand, such income

is subject to income tax if the two following conditions are met:

 

such income has been earned in any tax year starting from 1 January 2024 onward by a foreigner who stays in Thailand for 180 days or more in a tax (calendar) year, and; such income earned has been remitted to Thailand (wholly or partially), even if that remittance occurs in a later tax year

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

That is a simplification.  There are further Royal Decrees, RD directions/ministerial documents, and the tax code itself, which better defines this.

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

A UK Government Pension is also a pension, should also be declared by filing a tax return, but will be exempt from any Thai taxation due to DTA.

 Are you sure about this?  Is it not possible you are needlessly complicating the life of the Thai RD (to evaluate a tax return) when not needed?

Thai Tax code section-42 which lists income that is not to be included in a tax calculation, where item-17 refers to "Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations".

So the question then is your pension exempt taxation by Ministerial regulations? Note Royal Decree-18 (issued under the Revenue Code regarding Revenue Tax exemption in B.E. 2505(1962) which in essence notes DTAs need to be adhered to (and could result in exempt income to avoid double taxation).  

So if the DTA of your pension source country states it is tax exempt, and if the Thai Tax code section-42 states it shall not be included in a tax calculation, where on a tax form do you list such income that is not to be included in a tax calculation?

You can add that pension to your tax form, but what are the odds that the local RD are not aware of the details of your country's DTA with Thailand, and they tax you on such, when in fact the DTA claims the income is exempt and should not be included in a tax calculation? 

By filing a tax return and inserting such exempt income, are you not complicating the life of the Thai tax authorities?

Don't get me wrong - I don't' have the answer here ... I only have questions.

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Why would you produce on the website the exemption method, as a method of ensuring that double taxation did not occur.

 

if there was no requirement to file ? Double taxation could not happen anyway.

If i understand your question - because not every DTA is the same.  Some say only Thailand can tax a foreign pension, some say only the source country of the pension can tax the pension, and some infer both can tax (where one has priority).

One needs to look at the DTA with Thailand of their source country.

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Assessable / non assessable income, I believe are terms that apply to Thai domestic tax policy, ie, people who work and pay tax in Thailand.

 

Nowhere, have I seen, written down,  that these terms apply to income remitted from overseas.

I think that is a good and fair question ... and I believe I am acquiring a view as to the answer.

The short answer is examples have already been pointed out where the term 'assessable' has been applied for foreign income in official Thai RD documents. From that one can infer that there must also be income that is 'not assessable'.

My long answer:

I note the phrase "assessable income" is used in many Thai ministerial documents.  Why not just say "income" if all income is assessable?  That suggests since the word "assessable" was used then by deduction that there may be income that is "not assessable".

But it goes further than that. 

If one looks at the Thai tax code section-42 one will note there is a list of income that is not to be included in a tax calculation (reference: https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html ) .  .... One would nominally assume assessable income must be included in a tax calculation (and exemptions subtracted from such per the Thai tax form).

But in the Thai Tax Code section-42, it specifically states some types of income should not be included in a tax calculation.

One could conclude (and I don't know if this is correct) that income that shall not be included in a tax calculation in accordance with RD tax law, that such income is by deduction "not assessable" income.

If those deductions are correct, how is that relevant?

Note paw-161(6-Oct-2023) states foreign assessable income remitted to Thailand is now taxable in Thailand, and that paw.162(20-Nov-2023) goes on to note that paw-161/2023 does not apply to income prior to 1-January-2024.

Further, note Royal Decree 743 (for LTR-WP and LTR-WGC and LTR_WFTP visa holders) and the "Notification of the Director-General of the Revenue Department regarding Income Tax (No.427) both note foreign income for those LTR Visa holders is exempt tax.  Further, Royal Decree 743 even uses the words "assessable" income (in the translations) as being tax exempt.

Note also that some DTAs (not all) state some income can only be taxed in the foreign country (and not taxed in Thailand).  I should add some also say the opposite (only taxed in Thailand) so one MUST read the DTA.

Then again look at Royal Decree 18 (issued under the Revenue Code regarding Revenue Tax exemption in B.E. 2505(1962) which in essence notes DTAs need to be adhered to (and could result in exempt income to avoid double taxation). That is my word summary.

And finally, go back and look at the Thai tax code section-42 one will note there is a list of income that is not to be included in a tax calculation, where item-17 refers to "Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations. " which one could assess include Royal Decree 743 (LTR) and Royal Decree 18 (DTA) and Paw.161/162.  

That suggests exemptions under those Royal Decrees should not be included in a tax calculation.  And if not included in a tax calculation, does that not make them not assessable?

I am no tax expert.  I am only trying to understand this for myself. There may be more Thailand ministerial tax related documents which provide more clarification as to the term "not assessable", but I believe I have read enough to appreciate there is indeed income that Thailand has directed are not to be included in a tax calculation and possibly not even mentioned in a Thai tax return..

Once again - I am no tax expert.  Yes the above might be seen as a bit 'convoluted' when considering "not assessable" income, but I do believe such is a good term.  Its definition thou is, I concede, not so clear when comparing to "assessable exempt" income.

I think for the moment, everyone should make their own judgement call, as to whether any of these ministerial documents (or DTA) affects whether or not they need to file a Thai tax return and act accordingly.  Do NOT rely solely on the advice of any poster (including do not rely on what I post).

4 hours ago, MikeN said:

Yes, when I go up the crematorium chimney in a puff of smoke she would get two thirds of my pension (after unravelling miles of red tape). It is still paid as a military pension so as she is a citizen and resident of Thailand that DTA exemption would apply and would have to pay tax here... well, file a tax return at least. I don't think my pension will increase to a taxable level after deductions! And more red tape to make sure it isn't taxed in Australia. 

MikeM - it reads to me that you have checked this.

This is my "interpretation" from reading Article 18 in the Australia-Thai DTA which starts off with the statement (where I only selected part of the DTA and I inserted the country names  )  :

Quote

"1. Subject to the provisions of Article-19, pensions and annuities paid to a resident of one of the Contracting States (Thailand) shall be taxable only in that State (Thailand)".

...

so clearly Article-19 is important ...

Some relevant words from article-19  :

Quote

"1. Remuneration (or other pension) paid by one of the Contracting States (Australia) ... to any individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of governmental functions shall be taxable only in that state (Australia).  
...
"2. Any pension paid to an individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of government functions to one of the Contracting States (Australia) ... shall be taxable only in that State (Australia).  Such pension shall, however, be taxable only in the other Contracting State (Thailand) if the recipient is a resident of, and a citizen or national of, that other State (Thailand)".

That item-2 suggests to me that a Thai wife who is a resident of Thailand , may then have to pay tax in  possibly in Thailand (?)  on the 2/3 portion of her passed away Australian husband's military pension that she will receive.    ....  I could have this wrong - but I believe that is also what you have determined?

But I am no tax expert and I struggle to understand DTAs.  Hopefully you have a document (with account number(s), contact address and contact phone number) prepared in advance to make her task easier.

Which reminds me, .... I need to do the same for my Canadian pension and retirement income fund to ease my younger Thai wife's task for when I eventually croke.

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Adherence to thresholds doesn't apply to non assessable income. Or, am I missing something?

That's part of my disappointment with the Siam-legal  examples. They should cover such from a tax payment, tax exemption, tax assessability, and tax submission requirement perspective.  They do none of that.

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Siam legal ( if you ignore that they are a business )

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/thailand-income-tax-for-foreigners.php

 

Their examples are also limited.  For example they don't give any example of a scenario which is often referred to in this and other Asean Now threads, where a foreigner with a lot of savings/income from before 1-Jan-2024 brings some or all of that money into Thailand in 2024, or 2025, or any subsequent year, and the amount exceeds the Thai threshold for filing a tax return.  Paw-161/162 are very relevant here in such a scenario.

Why did Siam legal not provide that as an example?  My cynical speculation? They don't want to clarify such as they wish to drum up business from people in that category.  But I am also possibly too cynical.

20 minutes ago, MikeN said:

Just as a possible FYI for somebody, I was talking today with an acquaintance of my wife, who happens to be chief clerk of our (very) small local revenue office so biggest fish in a very small pond. She speaks reasonable English and is married to a foreigner so I don't think there were any "lost in translation" errors. She told me that as my military pension is non assessable under the DTA with Australia as long as any other income I bring in is under the 220,000 baht threshold for a married person I don't have to file a tax return here.

hopefully she is correct !

It looks to me that she is correct (as long as you did not somehow obtain Thai citizenship).  I was curious so I took a quick look at the Australia-Thai DTA.

Her assessment is consistent with Article-19 (Government Service) of the Australia-Thailand Double Tax Agreement (DTA), which states (I edited it a bit):

2. Any pension paid to an individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of government functions to one of the Contracting States (ie Australia) .... shall be taxable only in that State ( i.e. Australia).  

Military service is IMHO considered Government Service.  The noted DTA goes on to note thou, if one is a citizen of Thailand (and still managed to get this Australian pension), then the Australian government service pension would in that case be taxable in Thailand.

Is your wife Thai ?  .... If so, does she get your Australia pension when you pass away if she survives you?  If so, she may have to pay tax in Thailand on such (and not to Australia) in the sad/unfortunate case if you were to pass away.

I could be wrong in the above, but this is how this looks to me (as noted, I was curious - I have a number of Australian friends).

26 minutes ago, dinga said:

That makes 2 of us that don't understand.......

 

My understanding of ETT;s advice re. LTR visa holders:

 

1.  If income was earnt overseas in (say) 2023 but remitted to Thailand during 2024  -  No Tax Payable on such remittances

2.  If income was earnt overseas in (say) 2024 and was remitted to Thailand during 2024, such income is subject to Thai Tax and likely needs to be reported in the Tax Return to be lodged by 31 March 2025.

 

  

 The Royal Decree does not talk about remittance dates.  It talks of assessable income date.  It simply, at the end of section-5, states 'and brought into Thailand'.  Thinking there is a relevant date for the remittance is IMHO a wrong interpretation of the Royal Decree translation.  Again, I see little point in reopening the debate.

25 minutes ago, topt said:

I must be misunderstanding something because to me the "Quote" you provided is saying that income from 2023 and remitted in 2024 would be "exempted" but not 2024 income remitted in 2024 - which is what @dinga was saying Expat tax were saying?

I don't understand the relevance of this - probably me missing something?

Where the Royal Decree states "in the previous year" it refers to the income.   It does not say anything about when the remittance must take place or must not take place.  What was noted is, in my opinion, a wrong interpretation by ExpatTaxThailand.

As noted , this has already been debated, there has been no agreement from the different views, so there is likely nothing to be gained by re-opening this debate.  ...

IMHO time will tell as to whom is right and whom is wrong.

20 minutes ago, dinga said:

LTR VISA  -  may not be the panacea folks seem to be assuming.

 

One takeaway from yesterday's ExpatTaxThailand Webinar was that the old Rules (pre-2024) on remittances continue to apply to LTR Visas  ie.  in order to be Non-Taxable, remittances must be made in any year other than in the year the income was earnt.   It will be Taxable if remitted in the same year it was earnt.

 

Must admit that I have not been closely following LTR implications so my takeaway may not be entirely accurate.  But it seems to me that there may be widespread misunderstanding based on ETT's clear advice yesterday.   

I don't know "ExpatTaxThailand" but this viewpoint has been debated before with NO agreement.  I note (a translation) for the Royal Decree for Wealthy Pensioners and Wealthy Global Citizens state:

Quote

Section 5 Income tax under Part 2 of Chapter 3 in Title 2 of the Revenue Code shall be
exempted for a foreigner categorised as Wealthy Global Citizen, Wealthy Pensioner, or Work-
from-Thailand Professional who is granted a Long-Term Resident Visa under immigration law for
assessable income under section 40 of the Revenue Code derived in the previous tax year from
an employment, or from business carried on abroad, or from a property situated abroad, and
brought into Thailand.

The point those with the view of the "ExpatTaxThailand" (that you note) fail to account for, is one ALWAYS files taxes for the previous tax year.  One does NOT nominally file taxes for the current year.  So having no tax due for income derived in the previous year is no issue.

Frankly, IMHO, they (ExpatTaxThailand and those who agree with them) have their taxation years all mixed up.

Having typed that, for many of us who are Wealthy Pensioners (WP) or Wealthy Global Citizens (WGC), this has no affect, as most of our money is abroad, and waiting a year to bring in our income is zero problem. Possibly only the "Work from Thailand Professionals" (WFTP) or those who only 'barely' qualified for WP or WGC might want to watch this more closely.

In summary, IMHO, be sceptical about a wrong interpretation of "ExpatTaxThailand" (where this is only MY opinion).