msg362

Well done Ian, a perfect example there. :jap:

I figured it would get a laugh.

As for myself I love life too much to take anything someone says too seriously. If they are miserable then there really isn't anything I can do about it. Besides, if everyone agreed with each other the forum would become boring... like the Chiang Mai forum where food seems to be the most common topic.

Come off it!! Are you saying that all we think about in CM is food?? There are other things in life, even here in the sticks!! Weather for example!!! ( and shopping). What a stereotyped view of us Chiang Mai stalwarts!!!. You must be from the nether regions of BKK , or i dread to think, Isaan!!!

( before anyone gets upset, this is my idea of joking, sorry if I've got it wrong!!!)

Guidelines for the acute toxicity of chemical pesticides are provided by WHO. The latest revision of these can be found here:

http://www.who.int/i...hazard_2009.pdf

WHO classifies chlorpyrifos as "moderately hazardous". The LD50s (amount needed to cause death in 50% of those exposed) for substances in this category are

50-2000 mg/kg body weight for oral ingestion and 200-2000 mg/kg for dermal absorption. There are no separate guidelines for inhalation. The LD50s are derived from studies on rats.

If all this sounds a bit vague (they are only 'guidelines'), that's unfortunately the scientific 'state of play'. The only human data are from studies of people who are admitted to hospital after self-poisoning: for example,

http://www.reduas.fc...d_.1000357.pdf.

Nevertheless, it does seem that fairly large amounts of chlorpyrifos would need to have to been involved, although in terms of the guidelines swallowing a teaspoonful does not seem at all sensible. Assuming that the pesticide has approximately the same density as common salt, then a teaspoonful would weigh around 6,000 mgs. For a person weighing 50 kg, this would be equivalent to 120 mg/kg (ie within the LD50 range for moderately hazardous pesticides).

My understanding is that the biological half-life of chlorpyrifos is around 24 hrs, and it is virtually undetectable in the body 48 hrs after ingestion, but the pesticide can lead to a lingering reduced level of an important enzyme, acetylcholinesterase. Levels of this can be tested using fresh blood samples and levels can also be assessed using brain tissue a few days after death. An abnormally low level of the enzyme is not a definitive sign of chlorpyrifos poisoning, but it can provide strong corroboration.

I am not sure if these studies based on rats would take into account much lower levels of chlorpyrifos required to affect people with higher levels of sensitivity. I was made sick for a day by this chemical with severe headache, nausea and exhaustion while others in the house sprayed with it reported no ill effects. Hypersensitive people have died from exposure to small quantities of even pyrethroids that are still widely used indoors as pesticides in Western countries. It is quite possible that the chemical was used incorrectly by using too high a concentration and/or spraying the mattresses and pillows. Rooms should also be ventilated for at least 24 hours before putting humans in them but that would have meant losing some lovely money.

Both serious and important points, but if I am right, the samples showing the insecticide in the room were taken some time AFTER the deaths so are not relevant unless it can be shown that the room(s) were sprayed BEFORE the deaths..

Ridiculous.

Of course they died from insecticide poisoning, same as the people in Phi Phi a few years back.

No one is ever to blame in Thailand, unless it's a farang who shouldn't be there in the first place.

Glad you are so sure. Where is your evidence and supporting data?

What a moron.I guess his experts failed to tell him that some thing are respirated, while others are absorbed through the skin or mucous membranes, others orally. Be nice to have a farang doc explain the horse manure that seems to blow out of these peoples mouths.

This is getting boring. It depends on the toxicity of the compound. If relatively non toxic for humans ( I think it is) then,by whatever route into the bloodstream, a large amount is needed. Since there are no data that I know of for toxicity in humans, animal tests suggest a large amount- 5-40 grams is needed for a 50% chance of dying ( LD50).Accidental inhalation/ingestion/ absorption through the skin of such a large amount is unlikely. In addition, no traces were found at autopsy.

and a health expert told him the spray used in the hotel was an unlikely cause because "even if you take a spoonful of it, it won't kill you".

Good grief. Is this guy serious? What a moron.

Typical Thai SOP... Deny, deny, deny. Repeated often enough, some people will start to believe.

Total incompetence from the Thai authorities. Of course, they have been paid off by someone influencial to make sure the truth does not come out. Everyone involved in the coverup should be charged with manslaughter.

What are you trying to say? That if you eat a spoonful you will die? What is the lethal dose for humans?

OK let's try to cut through the bedbug story:

no traces of chlorpyrifos were found in the victims

I think the swabs taken by the 'expert' ( ? in management??!!) were taken several months after the deaths are are therefore not relevant ( I stand to be corrected). ( I suspect that the hotel went through a thorough clean up after the deaths and any residue of insecticide is a result of that clean up. I'd do that if I owned the hotel!!)

Large amounts would have to be eaten/ inhaled to cause death ( but no traces found!!)

Samples have been sent to Japan and the US ( but why so long for an answer??)

How much did the 'expert' Ron McDowall get paid??

So the mystery remains

President Obama accomplished in 29 months what Dubya could not in 96 months.

I had no use for Bush or his adminsitration but that's just silly.

1) Obama didn't accomplish it. SEALs did.

2) It took years to pull off.

But it was Obama that decided to go in,That took guts

Has anyone asked why there have been no more deaths or ilness? what has changed? that might lead to something?

I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Each room has there own Refrigerated Air Conditioner.

The hallways do not have any aircondtioners.

The reception area to knowledge, after staying there numerous times has Fans.

So the legionella bacillii well it is not a factor in this one.

It's not me suggesting Legionella! I agree with you !!!!!! It's Estrada running this, see my 'summary'!

Oppps

No problem cheers

This is a very thoughtful critique of the current hypothesis of the cause of these multiple deaths: and that hypothesis could well be a "rush to judgement."

Hope you'll write a letter-to-the-editor of either the Bangkok Post or Nation conveying this analysis, and your reservations about the academic credentials of the investigator.

We live in Chiang Mai, and first thought came into our head, when we heard about the multiple fatalities all linked to that hotel, was the fact that the Anusarn Market seafood restaurant area is less than a hundred meters from that hotel, second thought was central air-con, but it has come out the rooms have individual air-con units, we believe.

thanks, ~o:37;

I commented on this to the Bangkok Post, I know the editor so I will take this up with him personally.

I was involved in the Staffordshire Hospital, Sheffield City Bus and the BBC Legionella outbreaks in the UK back in the '70s -'80s because I supplied water recycling plants for their vehicle washes. The Experts blamed my water recycling plants, but I carried out in depth research eventually contacting the Germ Warfare Estblishment at Porton Down UK. Working with Porton Down on the problem I was able to gain a lot of background on the legionella bacillii which I believe was possibly originally manufactured by them but escaped. I carried out on site investigations and after further discussions with Porton Down we found that the problem was in the air conditioning. In the case of Stafford hospital, the bacteria was being bred in aircon waste drain and sucked up and atomised in the hosiptal humidifiers. People are only affected by bacteria contained in atomised water droplets of very low micron size (5 Micron). The normal water spray cannot affect you, and then only in the case where the people have destroyed their lung's natural defences by smoking, and generally are over 56 years of age. Hence, the most famous case which gave rise to the name was at a Legionaires Conference, hence "Legionella".

Following my research Porton Down Experts formed a Private Consultancy Company for investigation and advice to Water Companies on Legionella in Water Systems, whilst at the time I was Consultant to the British Health Service, various oil companies and the Car Wash Association on Legionella in Car Washing and water recycling systems in general.

The Germ Warfare Establishment were famous for conducting experiments on enlisted British Soldiers with Sarin and various bacterium and molds with a view of using the compounds for incapacitating, paralysing or even killing enemy soldiers. In my view they would be able to establish the cause of death as they are the World's experts, having created a number of lethal bacterium which seem to have escaped into the environment.

Working with Porton Down on the problem I was able to gain a lot of background on the legionella bacillii which I believe was possibly originally manufactured by them but escaped

Yet more nonsense! Porton Down did not 'invent' this bacterium There was an outbreak in a hotel in the USA, a conference of?? ex soldiers?? contracted the disease.It was first isolated there. It's a very common bacterium ( bacilli is plural for bacillus a rod shaped organism) It was then isolated in many other places.

( BTW I was for 10 years a specialist microbiology inspector for the HSE ( The first actually ) and investigated among other things the last outbreak of smallpox in Birmingham in 197??,, oversaw the disinfection of Gruniard island with Porton Down ( anthrax )and lots of other fun stuff )

I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Each room has there own Refrigerated Air Conditioner.

The hallways do not have any aircondtioners.

The reception area to knowledge, after staying there numerous times has Fans.

So the legionella bacillii well it is not a factor in this one.

It's not me suggesting Legionella! I agree with you !!!!!! It's Estrada running this, see my 'summary'!

Time for a summary?

The insecticide theory is unlikely. She would have had to ingest/inhale a relatively large amount for it to have an immediate/ acute effect. We are talking about teaspoonfuls! The insecticide was not found in high levels at autopsy. What about the other deaths?

Legionella is a 'red herring ( i know it's not a fish!!)

I don't think there is an answer yet, there may never be, but I'll not be staying at the Downtown in even if it was free!

I commented on this to the Bangkok Post, I know the editor so I will take this up with him personally.

I was involved in the Staffordshire Hospital, Sheffield City Bus and the BBC Legionella outbreaks in the UK back in the '70s -'80s because I supplied water recycling plants for their vehicle washes. The Experts blamed my water recycling plants, but I carried out in depth research eventually contacting the Germ Warfare Estblishment at Porton Down UK. Working with Porton Down on the problem I was able to gain a lot of background on the legionella bacillii which I believe was possibly originally manufactured by them but escaped. I carried out on site investigations and after further discussions with Porton Down we found that the problem was in the air conditioning. In the case of Stafford hospital, the bacteria was being bred in aircon waste drain and sucked up and atomised in the hosiptal humidifiers. People are only affected by bacteria contained in atomised water droplets of very low micron size (5 Micron). The normal water spray cannot affect you, and then only in the case where the people have destroyed their lung's natural defences by smoking, and generally are over 56 years of age. Hence, the most famous case which gave rise to the name was at a Legionaires Conference, hence "Legionella".

Following my research Porton Down Experts formed a Private Consultancy Company for investigation and advice to Water Companies on Legionella in Water Systems, whilst at the time I was Consultant to the British Health Service, various oil companies and the Car Wash Association on Legionella in Car Washing and water recycling systems in general.

The Germ Warfare Establishment were famous for conducting experiments on enlisted British Soldiers with Sarin and various bacterium and molds with a view of using the compounds for incapacitating, paralysing or even killing enemy soldiers. In my view they would be able to establish the cause of death as they are the World's experts, having created a number of lethal bacterium which seem to have escaped into the environment.

Working with Porton Down on the problem I was able to gain a lot of background on the legionella bacillii which I believe was possibly originally manufactured by them but escaped

Yet more nonsense! Porton Down did not 'invent' this bacterium There was an outbreak in a hotel in the USA, a conference of?? ex soldiers?? contracted the disease.It was first isolated there. It's a very common bacterium ( bacilli is plural for bacillus a rod shaped organism) It was then isolated in many other places.

( BTW I was for 10 years a specialist microbiology inspector for the HSE ( The first actually ) and investigated among other things the last outbreak of smallpox in Birmingham in 197??,, oversaw the disinfection of Gruniard island with Porton Down ( anthrax )and lots of other fun stuff )

It seems that you do not know what you are talking about with reference to Legionella. I already stated that the conference was attended by Legionaires, yet you go on to say that I am wrong and that it was a conference of ex-soldiers! If you knew the history of Legionaires disease you will know that the retired soldiers were Legionaires. Hence the name of the bacillii as Legionella. Legionnaires' disease acquired its name in July 1976 when an outbreak of pneumonia occurred among people attending a convention of the American Legion at the Bellevue-Stratford Hotel in Philadelphia. On January 18, 1977 the causative agent was identified as a previously unknown strain of bacteria, subsequently named Legionella. However, in my dealings with Porton Down they had researched this particularly strain way prior to the 1977 outbreak. As you should be aware Porton down was researching the use of common bacteria which by manipulation can made to produce a mutated form capable of being used as a weapon against enemy combatants. Since Porton Down had carried out research into producing this strain of bacteria, I prefer to believe that the bacterium was helped into existence rather than coming into existence by natural selection.

I was very much involved with the investigation into the Staffordshire Hospital Outbreak in 1985. It was I that investigated the outbreak independantly with Porton Down's assistance. Whilst the experts who went on TV immediately after the outbreak were pointing their fingers at the Bus Wash Water Recycling pant across the road from the hospital, I told them the problem was likely to be the aircon system and the humidifiers, and gave the health service a report on the bacteria and the information from Porton Down. The main important prerequisite being that the water droplets conatining the bacterium must be atomised to 5 micron size or less in order to cause infection leading to Pneumonia. Following this they did find that the problem was in their airconditioning system and that Fospur, the Chemical Company, maintaining the cooling system and supplying the Biocide, had neglected to kill the bacteria breeding in the system blowdown drain.

What is a Legionnaire? Then what are the members of the French foreign Legion? (I think soldiers is OK, esp when covered in question marks I wasn't sure if Legionnaires in the US are the same as in France))

I do know the history, that's why I corrected you.

I prefer to believe that the bacterium was helped into existence rather than coming into existence by natural selection. At the time, genetic manipulation was in it's infancy, strains might be increased in virulence, but substantial changes were not possible. ( My professor and supervisor worked there before moving to a University, I worked in PD for a few weeks). If I prefer to believe in fairies I don't quote it as fact to others. If what you say is true, how is it that the first outbreak identified was in the States? Did a ( mad) Scientist from Porton Down fill a vial, get on a plane and pour it in the air con system in a hotel? The fact is this bug is common, if air con systems are not regularly cleaned , it grows. When aerosolised ( from the cooling systems, normally located on the roofs of buildings)and inhaled in sufficient dose, it can cause infections and sometimes death.

Just as a matter of fact, Gruniard island, which is about 500 metres off the mainland in north west Scotland, was the island used. It was Churchill, i think, who wanted to use anthrax as a weapon to destroy german livestock in WW2. Unfortunately it didn't go away so it wasn't used!! The island was leased from the local owner or £50 but could not be returned until it was free from anthrax. In the mid 70's Porton down experimented with disinfecting it with formaldehyde. which worked. I was working at the time for the HSE as a specialist microbiology inspector. Got immunised against anthrax( yes it's possible) and went to observe. Great fun. There were outbreaks on the mainland when the original experiments were done. My boss at the time actually took part in the original test and had some hair raising stories!

It was finally returned to the owner and the government got it £50 back.

... snip ... Whilst it would be extremely unlikely that one death would occur due to this substance especially with very short term exposure, the fact that there have been more deaths which have occured and that the deaths were fairly rapid does not fit the known toxicology effects of the Chemical Chloropyrifos. ... snip ... I am afraid that this is not a case solved, it is a case covered up. ... snip ...

Sawadee Khrup, Khun Estrada,

This is a very thoughtful critique of the current hypothesis of the cause of these multiple deaths: and that hypothesis could well be a "rush to judgement."

Hope you'll write a letter-to-the-editor of either the Bangkok Post or Nation conveying this analysis, and your reservations about the academic credentials of the investigator.

We live in Chiang Mai, and first thought came into our head, when we heard about the multiple fatalities all linked to that hotel, was the fact that the Anusarn Market seafood restaurant area is less than a hundred meters from that hotel, second thought was central air-con, but it has come out the rooms have individual air-con units, we believe.

thanks, ~o:37;

I commented on this to the Bangkok Post, I know the editor so I will take this up with him personally.

I was involved in the Staffordshire Hospital, Sheffield City Bus and the BBC Legionella outbreaks in the UK back in the '70s -'80s because I supplied water recycling plants for their vehicle washes. The Experts blamed my water recycling plants, but I carried out in depth research eventually contacting the Germ Warfare Estblishment at Porton Down UK. Working with Porton Down on the problem I was able to gain a lot of background on the legionella bacillii which I believe was possibly originally manufactured by them but escaped. I carried out on site investigations and after further discussions with Porton Down we found that the problem was in the air conditioning. In the case of Stafford hospital, the bacteria was being bred in aircon waste drain and sucked up and atomised in the hosiptal humidifiers. People are only affected by bacteria contained in atomised water droplets of very low micron size (5 Micron). The normal water spray cannot affect you, and then only in the case where the people have destroyed their lung's natural defences by smoking, and generally are over 56 years of age. Hence, the most famous case which gave rise to the name was at a Legionaires Conference, hence "Legionella".

Following my research Porton Down Experts formed a Private Consultancy Company for investigation and advice to Water Companies on Legionella in Water Systems, whilst at the time I was Consultant to the British Health Service, various oil companies and the Car Wash Association on Legionella in Car Washing and water recycling systems in general.

The Germ Warfare Establishment were famous for conducting experiments on enlisted British Soldiers with Sarin and various bacterium and molds with a view of using the compounds for incapacitating, paralysing or even killing enemy soldiers. In my view they would be able to establish the cause of death as they are the World's experts, having created a number of lethal bacterium which seem to have escaped into the environment.

Working with Porton Down on the problem I was able to gain a lot of background on the legionella bacillii which I believe was possibly originally manufactured by them but escaped

Yet more nonsense! Porton Down did not 'invent' this bacterium There was an outbreak in a hotel in the USA, a conference of?? ex soldiers?? contracted the disease.It was first isolated there. It's a very common bacterium ( bacilli is plural for bacillus a rod shaped organism) It was then isolated in many other places.

( BTW I was for 10 years a specialist microbiology inspector for the HSE ( The first actually ) and investigated among other things the last outbreak of smallpox in Birmingham in 197??,, oversaw the disinfection of Gruniard island with Porton Down ( anthrax )and lots of other fun stuff )

Wait a minute! The oral LD50 ( dose required to kill 50% of the test animals) is 60 mg/kg in mice. 1000 mg/kg in rabbits ,95-270mg/kg in rats and500-504 mg/kg in guinea pigs. In sheep it is even higher- 800mg/kg

Acute toxicity: Chlorpyrifos is moderately toxic to humans [43]. Poisoning from chlorpyrifos may affect the central nervous system, the cardiovascular system, and the respiratory system. It is also a skin and eye irritant [2]. While some organophosphates are readily absorbed through the skin, studies in humans suggest that skin absorption of chlorpyrifos is limited [2]. Symptoms of acute exposure to organophosphate or cholinesterase-inhibiting compounds may include the following: numbness, tingling sensations, incoordination, headache, dizziness, tremor, nausea, abdominal cramps, sweating, blurred vision, difficulty breathing or respiratory depression, and slow heartbeat. Very high doses may result in unconsciousness, incontinence, and convulsions or fatality. Persons with respiratory ailments, recent exposure to cholinesterase inhibitors, cholinesterase impairment, or liver malfunction are at increased risk from exposure to chlorpyrifos. Some organophosphates may cause delayed symptoms beginning 1 to 4 weeks after an acute exposure which may or may not have produced immediate symptoms [2]. In such cases, numbness, tingling, weakness, and cramping may appear in the lower limbs and progress to incoordination and paralysis. Improvement may occur over months or years, and in some cases residual impairment will remain [2]. Plasma cholinesterase levels activity have been shown to be inhibited when chlorpyrifos particles are inhaled [8]. The oral LD50 for chlorpyrifos in rats is 95 to 270 mg/kg [2,13]. The LD50 for chlorpyrifos is 60 mg/kg in mice, 1000 mg/kg in rabbits, 32 mg/kg in chickens, 500 to 504 mg/kg in guinea pigs, and 800 mg/kg in sheep [2,13,44]. The dermal LD50 is greater than 2000 mg/kg in rats, and 1000 to 2000 mg/kg in rabbits [2,13,45]. The 4-hour inhalation LC50 for chlorpyrifos in rats is greater than 0.2 mg/L [46].

What this means is that the girl, assuming she weighs around 50 kg would have to EAT/ingest between 3 and 40 grams of the stuff to have a 50 % chance of dying ( depending on the LD50 for humans which thankfully we don't have data for). That is roughly a tea spoonful to three tablespoonfuls! Does that seem likely? If this is true, it should be possible to trace high levels in the autopsy. Has that been done?

I know it's nice to have an answer but is this it?

I'd really like someone to dismiss this question with harder evidence.

Why Bkk, where else in Thailand have you visited and whats so great about Bkk?

What do you intend doing all day?

Where do you intend living, will you need transport to the farang ghetto of Sukhumvit?

Be very careful of the company you keep.

The Thais will judge you on the way you dress, act and speak also by the company you keep.

Under no circumstances move a girl in with you, if you must move in with a girl move into her place, makes walking out of the relationship much easier.

Not everyone who smiles at you is your friend.

Never lend money to anyone, no matter how credible their story sounds, if you do give money consider getting it back as a bonus.

Hi,Thanks for this advice I am sure I would have made some huge mistakes without it.

To answer....

I thought Bangkok as I am " starting again" as they say,its a crazy place I know,but I thought it would be a good place to learn thai and I know it reasonably well and so was hoping not to get too isolated and lonely,particulary in the early days.I,ve travelled quite widely around Thailand but thought I should learn some Thai before heading out to the provinces.

Regarding my day,I intend to take Thai language classes weekday mornings,go to the gym most days,I use the internet loads and love listening to online radio at the same time.Also was thinking of taking up Salsa dancing,(it was suggested on the forum as a great way to meet people).Also I am really interested in food ( from my working life) and love cooking,not so important in BKK i know,so I can keep reasonably well occupied.

I was thinking of living near The Thailand Cultural Centre MRT stop,I had an apartment there for a month and it seemed quite a respectable area,if not around On Nut.I dont want to slip into the farang ghetto of Sukhumvit though.

Overall,and it appears the most complex and difficult issue,I want a g/f,surprise surprise,I am glad for your advice I could easily and quickly have met a girl and moved her in with me.

Just thinking,rather than this post go on too long and maybe becoming too personal,are there network groups/meetings for people looking to reside in Bangkok /Thailand ?,maybe things like this are better discussed " face to face" rather than so openly on a webpage.

Many Thanks

Visit Chiang Mai first. You can do all the things you want here. It's a manageable sized city, expats ( look at Chiang Mai expats - google it)/ Thais, good Thai lesson schools/gyms/ good universities and great countryside. One downside , it's a long way to the sea. But Really take a look first. 1 hour flight to Swampy.

Check for toothpaste being sold in a convenience store in the immediate area that would only be frequented by tourists.

...after eating and using restrooms at the Night Market in Chiang Mai, Thailand, on 30 Mar 2011...

Using the restrooms to brush their teeth?

...found dead after using the hotel's facilities 26 Jan 2011...

Including the restroom to brush his teeth.

...They returned to the hotel from the hospital, where the woman again collapsed and began vomiting in the elevator...

Because she brushed her teeth while in her room.

...An elderly couple from England died simultaneously of a heart attack inside their Downtown Inn hotel room on 28 Feb 2011...

Using the same tube of toothpaste to brush their teeth.

...A 23 year old woman from New Zealand, died in hospital 3 Mar 2011 after she and 2 friends became ill in the same hotel...

Again, sharing toothpaste.

...That same day, a 47 year old tourist guide was found dead in a room located next door to the New Zealander...

Used the same convenience store... to buy toothpaste.

A 33 year old American woman also died after experiencing similar symptoms as Carter.
However, she was not staying at the Downtown Inn and lab results for the cause of death have not been received.

Don't need to be staying in the same hotel to use the convenience store located near the hotel.

If anything's going to kill you in Chiang Mai it's going to be the crazy drivers, and surely not the food.

Toothpaste fits better than food poisoning. Maybe mouthwash or floss. But probably toothpaste.

I think it was the shampoo, much more likely!

You could be onto something there with the Shampoo.

They probably recycle the used ones and maybe they put the wrong stuff in them when refilling.

Or was it the water out of the tap instead of using bottle water!

Ugh, I was trying to make a joke,!.clearly not a good one

There are some areas in the outer provinces of Chiang Mai that have the highest amount of lung cancer cases in the whole of Thailand.

I personally know that many of my neighbors have died from cancer. The funerals seem never ending.

The causes are blamed on: chemical spraying of plants and crops. The chemicals contaminate the soil and also get into materials used for house building.

Then there is the burning of vegetation by farmers and local people, plus the burning of industrial and domestic waste. Living in some districts is the equivalent to smoking 100 cigarettes per day. We are breathing this crap in 24 hours of evey day throughout the year..

Also a huge danger comes from those mobile phone signal broadcasting masts, the high towers with a red flashing light on top. These transmit microwaves and many are erected right in the heart of residential areas.

No one seems interested in doing anything about the problem, laws are not enforce and in many cases the locals have the blessing of the councils to continue this age old tradition.

Huge danger from microwaves???!!!!!! chemicals in the bricks?????? serious risks of cancer??? How do you calculate living 'out there' is equivalent to smoking 100 cigarettes a day? You are kidding aren't you? We don't breath that crap 24 hours a day all year, look out the window, burning is only for a few months and this year, after the rains, the pollution levels are down. Risks need to be quantified before assertions about the links to disease can be made.

Now I agree, locals spraying pesticides daily at high concentrations with ineffective protection is a serious risk, but more likely to cause nerve damage..

Still out here the biggest risk is death by motorcycle, no worries about cancer then.

I've ordered books from Amazon UK. They come by air mail and I have never paid duty, takes 1-2 weeks. They will not send electronic goods,DVDs cameras etc due to complicated restrictions. Amazon put the Thailand address on as you have a option to 'deliver to this address' in the system. Never tried to get anything from Amazon US

People have been caught out by dishonest travel agents - it is well documented on this forum.

I book most flights on-line but also sometimes use a travel agent - but I always pay by credit card and confirm the flight with the airline.

Of coure there are some dishonest travel agents, but P+P is not one, Saying 'don't use any travel agent ' is silly. Credit cards often carry a surcharge. I've use P+P for many years, normally paying cash. They are honest, reliable, helpful and good value. I'm not happy when someone says 'don't use any travel agent', such assertions should either be justified or not made and since this assertion cannot be justified it should not have been made.

As I have said, I do use travel agents sometimes and think the little extra cost and hassle in paying by credit card and confirming the flight is well worth the peace of mind. I am cautious because I know of a couple who lost their dream holiday as (a highly recommended) agent they had paid in advance had not bought the air tickets before going bust. No dishonesty necessarily, but they still lost over 50,000 baht.

I think the rest of your post is directed at Peetcnx.

I have used Chiang Mai Air Ticketing several times (on Nimmanaheim just after the Amari) and never had a problem - friendly and helpful. I am sure P+P are also good - I think my wife knows of them. But I would always seek the extra protection of a credit card for an expensive transaction (as well as the free travel insurance that I get)!

Rgds

Sorry I used your quote, yes the main point was a for Peetcnx. The extra travel insurance is always a bonus with a credit card and the point about confirming with the airline is also a good one, but the insurance I bought for a trip to Chile via France when the Iceland volcano erupted is another story!

cheers

If you have used 'pages' to write documents or keynote etc, there is an option to make them readable by MS office.. alternatively, get a copy of MS office from Pantip and convert the files first then send them

I thought it was 30 days but stand to be corrected, just did mine 28 days before

Dont use any travel agency. You never know if they really pay yourt ticket to the airline.

Internet!!!!

Nonsense!

People have been caught out by dishonest travel agents - it is well documented on this forum.

I book most flights on-line but also sometimes use a travel agent - but I always pay by credit card and confirm the flight with the airline.

Of coure there are some dishonest travel agents, but P+P is not one, Saying 'don't use any travel agent ' is silly. Credit cards often carry a surcharge. I've use P+P for many years, normally paying cash. They are honest, reliable, helpful and good value. I'm not happy when someone says 'don't use any travel agent', such assertions should either be justified or not made and since this assertion cannot be justified it should not have been made.

Naifaan 4, on the 1317 Mae On road, 4 Km past the Sankamphaeng turn off.<div> Swimming pool, excellent construction standard, lot of open space, houses not all stuck together like many moo baans. You can Google it, it has a website.</div>

Dont use any travel agency. You never know if they really pay yourt ticket to the airline.

Internet!!!!

Nonsense!