thaibeachlovers

Only bright spot is my fav hotel still same price and a bargain at 500bht including breakfast.

No Russian, even if just released from a Gulag concentration camp, would be that miserable.

They never go under 1200B.

It's not being miserable, just leaves more money for "fun".

Seems to me that the Russian guys are always with a ( Russian ) woman, so of course they have to spend more for a better room to keep the woman sweet, as they want to have "fun" too.

Only bright spot is my fav hotel still same price and a bargain at 500bht including breakfast.

Which is?

Sawasdee Court, soi to the left across from Soi 10 on 2nd Rd. No lift is the only drawback.

What do you expect for 500Thb? 5 star facilities with a 3 star Michelin restaurant and a tuck-down service?

Gee Basil,

didn't get it last night eh!

No

Thought so!

Fact

last week flew with Thai from Heathrow. 747 had approx 70 people out of 300. Everybody and I mean EVERYBODY had a row to themselves and there were empty rows between rows. Interesting I have never seen an 747 like that and sounds like it may be the same ex USA as well

Was that on a weekday ( not Fri. )? I'm actually not that surprised this time of year, and with the recession/ fuel tax starting to bite. I only flew myself as bought ticket before the fuel tax was increased ( thanks for the warning Thai Visa ).

I also think that Thai needs to upgrade the planes from UK, as people will choose airlines that offer seat back TV if the price is the same, and there are other airlines that offer direct flights.

I flew on Thursday, and despite combining an Air NZ flight, there were still lots of empty seats.

If this is indeed the start of a reduction in family tourists from the UK to Thailand, there will be more than a few sad investors that are building all the new malls etc in Pattaya ( good! ).

Only bright spot is my fav hotel still same price and a bargain at 500bht including breakfast.

Which is?

Sawasdee Court, soi to the left across from Soi 10 on 2nd Rd. No lift is the only drawback.

What do you expect for 500Thb? 5 star facilities with a 3 star Michelin restaurant and a tuck-down service?

Gee Basil,

didn't get it last night eh!

I just saw an old video from Walking street, taken maybe 10 years ago (before it was WALKING street) You would be VERY surprised how dead it was then compared to now.

I remember it well, and I was there when they started it.

It actually took a few years to catch on, and become as popular with strollers as it is now. They even put out tables and chairs as a sort of "beer garden" to try and attract customers down there.

Till the Russians came, the far end was pretty dead for many years, as few strollers went far past what was then Simon Cabaret.

Best thing that ever happened for us farangs that like to look at cool chicks walking around.

Just arrived yesterday, and astounded at how few visitors are about.

Most of the bars outside walking Street have but 1 or 2 customers ( at 9 pm ), shops mainly deserted, The Avenue Mall virtually empty of shoppers ( just who do they think is going to support the 100s of new shops in the big new mall, not yet open? ), and plenty of room to move on the streets. well this is low season, have you ever been to Blackpool in January?

Even Walking Street is quiet ( and where have all the Russians gone? ). Georgia? I had no trouble finding one of those comfy armchairs at Lucky Star, where before they were all filled.

I know it's low season, but this seems exceptional. Well do you not listen to the news? there is a global recession on at this time.

I guess the situation is not helped by the rapidly vanishing pound which is now 10 bht down on a year ago, and does not look like going back up anytime soon. It was up a bit a few weeks ago but has fallen again.

Haven't been around long enough to get an idea if bar fines etc gone up overall, but doesn't seem promising.

Only bright spot is my fav hotel still same price and a bargain at 500bht including breakfast.

I've never been to Blackpool in January, but I've been to Pattaya plenty of times in the low season, and it's never been this quiet before.

If you had waited long enough to read between the lines, you might know why I posted this! ( and I don't want to get banned so I'm not going to explain it, either. Those that need to know will understand. )

Only bright spot is my fav hotel still same price and a bargain at 500bht including breakfast.

Which is?

Sawasdee Court, soi to the left across from Soi 10 on 2nd Rd. No lift is the only drawback.

Just arrived yesterday, and astounded at how few visitors are about.

Most of the bars outside walking Street have but 1 or 2 customers ( at 9 pm ), shops mainly deserted, The Avenue Mall virtually empty of shoppers ( just who do they think is going to support the 100s of new shops in the big new mall, not yet open? ), and plenty of room to move on the streets.

Even Walking Street is quiet ( and where have all the Russians gone? ). I had no trouble finding one of those comfy armchairs at Lucky Star, where before they were all filled.

I know it's low season, but this seems exceptional.

I guess the situation is not helped by the rapidly vanishing pound which is now 10 bht down on a year ago, and does not look like going back up anytime soon.

Haven't been around long enough to get an idea if bar fines etc gone up overall, but doesn't seem promising.

Only bright spot is my fav hotel still same price and a bargain at 500bht including breakfast.

I'm sorry if its been mentioned earlier in this post. What I would like to ask, does everyone think that allowing ladies to sit around and accost passers by on the beach front road is a good image for Pattaya. At least what happens with the bar girls is far more discrete, and not in the face of family members taking a stroll. I think most people will say the families should'nt be there, this is our sex town.

Faranglandoz

Why would you take a stroll on Beach Road with your family? You know what Beach Road is for and it isn't for that. Why not take them to Jomtien where the prostitution isn't in your face? Pattaya is what it is and that aspect will never change.

Believe it or not, I have seen Thai families on the front at Beach Road. Maybe there should be a sign that says only old sex farangs allowed in this area.

Faranglandoz

Yes that's true ( about the Thai families ), but I doubt the Thais get upset about it, just uptight farangs who think single old men should just stay at home, watch TV and die quietly, not go out and enjoy themselves with nice young ladies.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what is most offensive to the "shame brigade", prostitution, or the idea that lonely old men are able to have an enjoyable sexual relationship?

OMG that sign is so BRIGHT, at times IT IS BLINDING. Also it is just showing advertising, so what is the relevance to Walking Street?

If that is an example of the new mayor's "better Pattaya", I dread to think of what is to happen to the place.

btw I read a report a while back that claimed that in the UK, despite the infestation of CCTV cameras, CCTV only actually resulted in the solving of about 3% of street crime.

I think the only cameras that work properly are the ones for catching speeding motorists, so they can fine them. The "powers that be" certainly don't seem concerned about "real" crime, as is evident by the hordes of feral hooligans terrorising the population without any attempt by the plod to disperse them. I guess that it's too dangerous dealing with real criminals.

Pattaya hoodlums are gentlemen compared to the ones in the UK.

The day I leave London to live in Pattaya, is the day I will feel safe walking about the streets!

The undisputed way to improve Pattaya is remove every grumpy farang out there who picks apart this place like so many discarded chicken carcasses. Although Pattaya has its problems - we need to accept these issues as mere idiosyncrasies. The fact is, we are all guests here, and those who spend more time complaining about potholes and suit vendors than enjoying themselves should consider going back from where they came, where everything is picture-perfect. It will make them happy, and it will please those here who enjoy Pattaya for what it is. This should cull the farang population by 75%.

Sólo mis dos centavos.

Wow, what a good idea to remove 75% of the tourists! There would then only be 25% of the money coming in, most of the Thais would have to leave to find work elsewhere, and you could have the place to yourself. Be pretty boring though.

I'm amazed that you think rip off public transport, corrupt police, muggings, shootings, beatings, thefts, uncrossable streets, cons, garbage everywhere, broken infrastructure, obstructed and dangerous pavements, dangerous traffic, dangerous electrical wiring, getting burned to death in your hotel because the safety doors are chained, noise pollution and sewage smells are idiosyncrasies. Just how bad does it have to get before you call it a problem?

My idea of an idiosyncrasy is walking down a street and having lovely young ladies calling me a "sexy man", when it is plain that I am not!

Why do people keep saying that we are "guests" here ( unless you make your guests pay to stay with you, and treat them badly )? We are PAYING CUSTOMERS. Have you ever heard the expression "The customer is always right"? As CUSTOMERS, we have EVERY RIGHT to complain if things are not up to an acceptable level. The TAT is ASKING us to go to Thailand and spend our money there. At an absolute minimum, it should be a pleasant experience.

At home, if customers get a bad deal from a shop, they complain, word gets around and people stop spending there. Then the shop closes. Those of us that love Pattaya don't want it to close, we want it to get better, so we can keep going back and enjoying it.

The day we are treated as guests in Pattaya is the day we will have no need to complain.

^ I think what they tried several years ago and re floated briefly a few months back was the closure of ALL Beach road from Friday night through Sunday night. That was/is a recipe for disaster and not the same as tbl is suggesting.

A partial closure of Beach road between Center road to Walking Street may be more productive and less fraught with traffic mayhem as Center road to the beach is a wide 2-way affair so a great big UK style roundabout would work at the beach end and make the north half of Beach road 2-way again. Same for Second Road; it would remain 1-way from South to Central and revert to 2-way from Central to Dolphin. For the 2-way sections of Beach and 2nd, only left turns when exiting from sois thus merging with the flow of traffic would be allowed, ie. no right turns that would stop traffic.

Instead of 100% closure of the lower-half of Beach road, how about pedestrian-only zones or 'islands' between certain soi junctions with Beach road? This way commercial traffic and baht buses could come down to the beach drop-off & pick-up or deliver and then go back up the next soi back on to 2nd Road. That is 2 adjacent sois would be a 1-way but in opposite directions.

I think you think wrong.Don't know the exact planswere from a few months ago but what they did several years back was exactly what beach lovers mentions.They closed beach road from soi 8 upwards to walking street and only during the weekend nights.Big opposition against from beach road business owners and they canceled it after a month or so.

Don't forget that there was opposition to closing Walking Street to traffic also, and I doubt anyone would advocate abandoning it now. All change is threatening to some people, and some will be affected, no doubt. The question is, though, will the end result be better than the present? I believe so. City Hall just has to make a decision, and have the political will stick to it. The far end of Walking Street was a disaster for most of the restaurants there after Walking Street was initially closed ( for years, few strollers ventured that far ), but it's now recovered ( with the influx of Russians setting up camp there ).

I don't personally remember the closure of all of Beach Road, but I doubt that there would be a benefit to close from Central to Dolphin. When they closed from Soi 8 to South did they make 2nd Road 2 way from South to Central? If not, no wonder it was a disaster. That would have to happen to make it work properly.

NanLaew's modification of having only sections closed to allow the busses down the sois is an improvement on my original idea. It would lessen opposition, and still achieve the objective of a pleasant outside place to spend an evening by the beach. Walking Street has become too popular to allow a relaxing time with a drink.

If you run out of ideas, this thread on the same subject (more or less) should help out: If I Was The New Pattaya Mayor, I would...

I find it kind of funny that (most) people came to Pattaya while it was very similar to what it is like now, and want to change it into something else.

Kind of like those people that buy properties (usually cheaply) near airports, then try to get the airports shut down (or get compensation for the noise, knowing full well beforehand that they were going to be living next to an airport fer christsakes !).

Or buy homes (cheaply) near a shooting range and then try to get the range closed (which would probably/possibly raise their property values of course).

In Canada, a lot of the "hippy" generation took up residence in the Gulf Islands between the mainland and Vancouver Island. Now they have nice homes worth a lot of money, and want to prevent any other development as they fear their property values will go down (funny how that wasn't a concern when they were doing their own developing of course).

Yes, there are things that could be done to improve the city, but to try and change everything so it's more "like home" ? Sheesh, if I wanted to live in a boring "Blighty by the Sea" kind of city, I would have moved to one.

A lot of people forget though, that to live in a nice, clean ("family-friendly") city with decent services, working infrastructure and

everything that they're used to "back home" costs money !

That means taxes (on everyone, not just the locals). Higher prices. More restrictions (can't have all that without some properly enforced standards and regulations).

Suddenly, everything starts looking just like the place you left, which begs one to consider, if everything back there was so great.......(you know the rest).

Hi Kerry,

I came long enough ago to remember when it was a smaller, more relaxed place, and it has changed since then, so my suggestions ( not that I have any illusions that they would happen- I did say I was dreaming ) are to make the monster that it has become a more pleasant place. No matter what changes happened, I would never imagine that I was back "home"!

The only suggestion I made that would entail a LOT of money would be widening 2nd Road, and it's going to have to happen sometime. The soundshell could be sponsored by an hotel chain or resort.

As for "if everything back there was so great"; when they have a bar/ girl scene back home just like the one in Pattaya I, for one, will not be travelling half way around the world for my holidays, or do you think we go to Pattaya for the beach and temples?

<For myself, I'd close Beach Road from Central Road to South Road from 4pm everyday, to encourage bars and restaurants to put out tables and start a "cafe culture".>

Who wouldn't want to have a relaxing drink in the open air?

<Build a proper "soundshell" entertainment complex with tiered seating, on the beach, near Central Road.>

They already have entertainments there from time to time. A proper stage and seating would allow more people to enjoy.

<I'd ban all parking on Beach Road and use the extra space to expand the land side pavement, plus put in a cycle path alongside the walkway>

No one could possibly say Beach Road is OK the way it is.

<Get rid of the sandbanks on the walkway, widen the path, put in drainage and install lots more decent seating.>

If having a decent walkway is making it more like "home", that's OK with me.

<Build some Public Toilets ( get the hotels to adopt them, to keep clean and maintained )>

Much needed.

<Widen Second Road to make it a proper 2 way road instead of the stupid one way system at present.>

This would entail a lot of money, but it's going to have to happen sometime, anyway, so why not now?

<Either put in pedestrian crossings with working traffic lights, or build overhead pedestrian bridges.>

The current lack of safe crossings is just insane.

<Designate a zone for bars of all sorts, and then let them operate 24/7 ( as they decided for their own needs ), and provide adult entertainment for adults ( within the law ).>

Pretty obvious.

<Relocate that awful stinking sewage plant next to the Walking Street entrance.>

Unless you enjoy sewage smell.

<Really develop the promenade past the Bali Hai boat park.>

Could be a real asset if developed.

<Have a regular bus route to the top of the hill, so you could visit the temple and the lookout without being ripped off by the baht busses.>

Makes sense to me.

<Ban all future large scale developments from Central Road to the hill, and from 3rd Road to the beach.>

If only.

<Cut baht bus numbers by 50%.>

Everyone wants less baht busses on the roads.

Everyone ( justifiably ) complains about the negative side of Pattaya, but imagine if you had the chance to really change things to make Pattaya better. What would you do? ( We can dream, can't we? )

For myself, I'd close Beach Road from Central Road to South Road from 4pm everyday, to encourage bars and restaurants to put out tables and start a "cafe culture".

Build a proper "soundshell" entertainment complex with tiered seating, on the beach, near Central Road. Have free bands every Saturday evening.

I'd ban all parking on Beach Road and use the extra space to expand the land side pavement, plus put in a cycle path alongside the walkway ( then put in anti bike obstacles to prevent those dangerous cyclists on the walkway itself ).

Get rid of the sandbanks on the walkway, widen the path, put in drainage and install lots more decent seating.

Build some Public Toilets ( get the hotels to adopt them, to keep clean and maintained )

Widen Second Road to make it a proper 2 way road instead of the stupid one way system at present.

Either put in pedestrian crossings with working traffic lights, or build overhead pedestrian bridges.

Designate a zone for bars of all sorts, and then let them operate 24/7 ( as they decided for their own needs ), and provide adult entertainment for adults ( within the law ). I know that there is supposed to be zoning already, but it's a joke, at present.

Have a dedicated group of law enforcement officers ( tourist police? ) the only ones allowed to patrol within the entertainment area to prevent scams.

Relocate that awful stinking sewage plant next to the Walking Street entrance.

Really develop the promenade past the Bali Hai boat park.

Have a regular bus route to the top of the hill, so you could visit the temple and the lookout without being ripped off by the baht busses.

Ban all future large scale developments from Central Road to the hill, and from 3rd Road to the beach.

Cut baht bus numbers by 50%.

Recently, I read a news article about some students who

made a day of cleaning up the beach which is admirable but they were saying it was from

inconsiderate tourists, which of course as we know is a popular misconception.

Thais seem to have a blind spot when it comes to just who is littering. Many years ago, when Samui was worth visiting, I was walking along Chaweng beach picking up rubbish, and a guy in one of the dive shops was making scathing comments about the littering tourists, but he was not able to explain to me why a tourist would have dropped a 5 litre engine oil container!

Sure, many dodgy folks down there at beach road at day and night. Yes, the beach is a complete disaster zone. However, the pro-Pattaya People, PPP, a new political party of Pattaya will shoot down any negative comments about this lovely area and claim that any complaints are not worth comparisions to our home lands. Those folks seem to state that their own countries suck and that is why they are here. At least I love my home country and Thailand and that is why I try to make it better by reporting positive and negative events. However, the long stay experts that seem to have adjusted to living in an open sewer and love it, Shrekies, need to go for a walk on the beach and take in the majestic mess that has developed over time.

The only upgrade that remains intact are the solid, tile covered benches. Great job!! Everything else is a disaster. My friend Albert Gore can confirm that beach road, along with many other parts of this resort community have hit rock bottom and don't listen to those property sellers or other PPP party members when considering your next 20 million baht, overpriced jumper sky box.

can agree with you that the beach road walkway has become a "majestic mess".

A couple of variations ago, the walkway was actually quite nice, well designed, and attractive, with plenty of space to walk, and incorporating the large trees sadly destroyed recently. Unfortunately, the Thai attitude to maintenance ( none ) allowed it to degenerate to the point that it was subjected to an inferior rebuild, which is when your large tiled benches were installed. However, the real atrocity of the present version has more or less destroyed it. Whomever thought it was a good idea to build sandbanks restricting the width of the path, whilst destroying the drainage of the pathway itself deserves a good flogging. After every rain, as anyone using the path knows, the path becomes a pool, and when the water evaporates it leaves masses of wet sand everywhere ( which is never removed ), while the sandbanks themselves are being destroyed by the pedestrians forced to walk on them to avoid the puddles.

As for the furniture!!! Whale shaped water fountains become rubbish receptacles, the not unattractive benches with the Thai children placed to obstruct rather than enhance the path, the fancy lamps just at the right height to be vandalised. If the designer had wanted it to all become a travesty, he couldn't have done better!

One must wonder if the tourist people off at travel fairs around the world promoting Pattaya have actually looked along Beach Road, which is where every tourist will visit at least once, and if they have, how do they have the gall to look prospects in the eye and lie as to how attractive Pattaya is.

What do you want? Shade during day time or personal safety during the night?

My choice would be personal safety. The walkway along beachroad has many hazards at night thus the reason why informed ex pats do not walk along it at night.

In addition to the pruning I would suggest they install additional lighting at night.

While I can't claim to be a Pattaya ex pat ( though I have spent many months there ), I do consider myself to be informed, and I can't agree that it's anymore dangerous than anywhere else in Pattaya, whatever the time ( and I have walked along it most hours of the night ). I have never encountered a probem, yet, anywhere in Pattaya between 2nd and Beach rds, though I do exercise common sense while moving around.

As for the lighting, they are up to the fourth variation since I started visiting Pattaya, and like all the previous versions, the lights work only till they break, and are never repaired.

Great Post Thaibeachlovers!! I am sure that the city is trying to find jobs for the bar workers and other poor folks. I see job shops opening up with all kinds of job openings for massage workers, aids, home care, internet cafe workers, etc....the only problem that I can see is that if the tourists numbers continue to dip, then all of these shops and small businesses will close down and won't be able to offer jobs, along with the fact that the wages are much lower than what they make in bars and going with farang. So, their needs for money are still being unmet, along with the fact that inflation is strong and all related costs of living are going up for them too, not just tourists. I don't mind the streets vendors or others that are trying to make a living selling crip that we don't want, but I do mind when some of them become violent and very aggressive with us. Yes, they are desparate for money and times are tough, but the city should be offering something for these folks, like a supplemental income plan.....but, we all know that this won't happen. The other option is to offer a relocation plan back upcountry. They don't want to go live on the farm again with no money, but they might not have a choice, unless all out crime is the wave of the future. If that is the case, then the streets will continue to empty out and the cycle of no tourist dollars will continue to grow. So, if they want tourist and money to flow, they will have to take care of the major waves of crime that we see exploding now on the streets. This is the primary reason why I wanted out, or at least wanted to take a long break from that place because I only see prices rising, and crime increasing, as you said in your post.

Thanks innovator, however, I doubt anyone in City Hall is concerned about the poor people. As seems to be the way in Thailand, the so called "elite" seem only to care about their own pocket, hence whenever some catastrophe happens they always bleat on about how it will affect the number of tourists coming, ie how much they will lose cashwise. The welfare of the poor does not seem to register at all. You only have to see what happened after the tsunami to know that.

I believe that the current push to upmarket Pattaya is part of a strategy to make themselves wealthy by selling expensive accomodations to rich people. The problem for them with the way things are, is that low market tourists only support low level people, the very people that you are concerned about, in jobs not directly involved in the bar/ sex industry; cheap hotel owners, traditional massage workers, restauranteurs and staff etc etc, and little of that money makes its way into the pockets of the "elite". As for the cheap package tour Asians, so far as direct input into the local economy is concerned they make little impact. You never see them in the bars, and for shopping go en mass to big places like Mike's Shopping Mall.

So, as Pattaya has a "bad reputation", the only way they can cash in is by attracting rich tourists/ retirees, and they aren't going to come with Pattaya the way it is. Hence the push to upmarket Pattaya. No doubt, there was some idea that the many poor people would happily become workers in the new hotels, malls and shops slaving for a pittance; more for the bosses.

Unfortunately for them, things haven't gone the way they hoped. For a start, many people make a LOT of money from the bar scene, and they aren't going to give it away without a struggle. So, close down one cluster of bars, and another springs up elsewhere. Now, it seems to me, there are a lot more bars in a lot more places than ever there were. Bit like what happened at Nana Plaza when puritanical made the bars close earlier, no doubt hoping they would disappear, but all that happened was a huge gaggle of girls hanging around Sukhumvit looking for clients. What was a fairly controlled scene, more or less out of sight, has become an "in your face" hooker scene all over the street.

As for the future, too many variables at the moment to guess. The world wide economic downturn will certainly have an impact. The rising cost of flying will keep many families away from not only Pattaya, but Thailand as a whole. The rapidly rising cost of living in Thailand will also have an effect, as it may force some fixed income expats to return home.

For myself, as a low average income earner, I'll still go as much as I can, but I will have to cut back spending as much as possible. The £ has fallen by 2 baht in a single week, and looks like continuing to free fall. I can only afford the same number of £ as usual, but they are going to go a lot less far than before, which means a lot of haggling, no bell ringing, no lady drinks, walking instead of baht buses, only really cheap restaurants. As I won't be the only one in that situation, you know it means a lot less cash moving around the system. No idea what the end result will be. Probably more cons and crime for a start.

Make that the £ has fallen by 3bht in a week on todays exchange rates. Bummer.

Great Post Thaibeachlovers!! I am sure that the city is trying to find jobs for the bar workers and other poor folks. I see job shops opening up with all kinds of job openings for massage workers, aids, home care, internet cafe workers, etc....the only problem that I can see is that if the tourists numbers continue to dip, then all of these shops and small businesses will close down and won't be able to offer jobs, along with the fact that the wages are much lower than what they make in bars and going with farang. So, their needs for money are still being unmet, along with the fact that inflation is strong and all related costs of living are going up for them too, not just tourists. I don't mind the streets vendors or others that are trying to make a living selling crip that we don't want, but I do mind when some of them become violent and very aggressive with us. Yes, they are desparate for money and times are tough, but the city should be offering something for these folks, like a supplemental income plan.....but, we all know that this won't happen. The other option is to offer a relocation plan back upcountry. They don't want to go live on the farm again with no money, but they might not have a choice, unless all out crime is the wave of the future. If that is the case, then the streets will continue to empty out and the cycle of no tourist dollars will continue to grow. So, if they want tourist and money to flow, they will have to take care of the major waves of crime that we see exploding now on the streets. This is the primary reason why I wanted out, or at least wanted to take a long break from that place because I only see prices rising, and crime increasing, as you said in your post.

Thanks innovator, however, I doubt anyone in City Hall is concerned about the poor people. As seems to be the way in Thailand, the so called "elite" seem only to care about their own pocket, hence whenever some catastrophe happens they always bleat on about how it will affect the number of tourists coming, ie how much they will lose cashwise. The welfare of the poor does not seem to register at all. You only have to see what happened after the tsunami to know that.

I believe that the current push to upmarket Pattaya is part of a strategy to make themselves wealthy by selling expensive accomodations to rich people. The problem for them with the way things are, is that low market tourists only support low level people, the very people that you are concerned about, in jobs not directly involved in the bar/ sex industry; cheap hotel owners, traditional massage workers, restauranteurs and staff etc etc, and little of that money makes its way into the pockets of the "elite". As for the cheap package tour Asians, so far as direct input into the local economy is concerned they make little impact. You never see them in the bars, and for shopping go en mass to big places like Mike's Shopping Mall.

So, as Pattaya has a "bad reputation", the only way they can cash in is by attracting rich tourists/ retirees, and they aren't going to come with Pattaya the way it is. Hence the push to upmarket Pattaya. No doubt, there was some idea that the many poor people would happily become workers in the new hotels, malls and shops slaving for a pittance; more for the bosses.

Unfortunately for them, things haven't gone the way they hoped. For a start, many people make a LOT of money from the bar scene, and they aren't going to give it away without a struggle. So, close down one cluster of bars, and another springs up elsewhere. Now, it seems to me, there are a lot more bars in a lot more places than ever there were. Bit like what happened at Nana Plaza when puritanical made the bars close earlier, no doubt hoping they would disappear, but all that happened was a huge gaggle of girls hanging around Sukhumvit looking for clients. What was a fairly controlled scene, more or less out of sight, has become an "in your face" hooker scene all over the street.

As for the future, too many variables at the moment to guess. The world wide economic downturn will certainly have an impact. The rising cost of flying will keep many families away from not only Pattaya, but Thailand as a whole. The rapidly rising cost of living in Thailand will also have an effect, as it may force some fixed income expats to return home.

For myself, as a low average income earner, I'll still go as much as I can, but I will have to cut back spending as much as possible. The £ has fallen by 2 baht in a single week, and looks like continuing to free fall. I can only afford the same number of £ as usual, but they are going to go a lot less far than before, which means a lot of haggling, no bell ringing, no lady drinks, walking instead of baht buses, only really cheap restaurants. As I won't be the only one in that situation, you know it means a lot less cash moving around the system. No idea what the end result will be. Probably more cons and crime for a start.

Thebeachlovers explained the situation quite clearly. Now, I can begin to understand the battle between the family plan and the sin city.

So, as the BIB begin to crack down on crime after so many years of seedy dealings that went unchecked, it begins to create a 'TURF BATTLE'. Those that want to keep things the way they were, profitable and fun against those family supporters that want to get rid of the bars, crime, girls, fun and replace it with higher cost housing/rentals and related consumer products. (That would explain the recent surge in crime in the local area).

If this is the true battle, then the pro family supporters have forgotton one important things and that is what to do with the base of poor people living in the area who will be out of money if the bars, gogos, fun, girls, and most importantly Male Tourists disappear.

So, Thebeachlovers, how do you see this battle playing out over the long-term?

Well, not having a ( working ) crystal ball, I have no idea of the outcome of this battle, but looking to history it will not come out well for those of us who like our night life raw ( and affordable for those of us who are average income earners ).

To give an example, in the American wild west the first punters were ( mainly ) single male adventurers, on the run from something, or looking to make money, or perhaps just looking. Anyway, they ended up working as cowboys or goldminers or such. Following them came clever people looking to make money by exploiting the first people ( remember that in a gold rush the only people making money are the ones selling the shovels ), and they brought with them booze and women. So the first punters had a good time, while the clever people made money. Eventually, of course, as the clever people made fortunes and built big houses, other people arrived looking to make their fortunes too. Then, inevitably, came the wives and children. Next thing you know, the temperance league is demanding the saloons close, and the wives are clamouring to get rid of the brothels. So, where once was a wild west town where a man could drink, gamble and sleep with whores, there was only a boring mid west town that most people want to get as far away from as possible.

I'm sure you get the connection with Pattaya. Take a small fishing village near to both Bangkok and an American airbase during the Vietnam war, combine it with hundreds of lonely American troops, add in the Thai attitude to prostitution ( at that time ), and voila, the beginnings of Pattaya as it became in it's heyday of the '90s. A place for single guys to drink and sleep with women ( no gambling of course, but that was OK, as it left more money for the women ). Pretty good all round. The guys were happy, and kept coming back for more, the girls were happy as they made lots of money for their families and vet bills for sick buffalos, and the bar owners were happy as they made lots of money too. So, everybody was happy. And, innovator, around the bars and the girls grew up an infrastructure ( or your "base" ) of poor people, scraping a living by selling whatever they could to the punters. In fact, they became a pest, really, poking you in the back every 30 seconds, trying to sell whatever they imagined someone might like. Carved buffalo horns, wooden ships, belts, sarongs, T shirts, cuddly toys, food. The list is endless, and we all know the feeling of being confronted by some peasant from Issan trying to sell us some piece of cr**, and feeling guilty when we shake our head for the 50th time that night, as he probably sold his daughter to a loan shark to get the money to buy that piece of cr**. And, beyond the poor people, there were lots of better off people investing in shops, restaurants, hairdressing shops, traditional massage parlours and lately, the foot massage parlour ( never got the point on that ) etc etc. So, on the "back" of the girls and the bars grew up an entire industry dependent on enticing single guys to travel around the world to a small town on the Gulf of Thailand. ( IMO, for every person directly involved in the bar/ sex industry there are probably 10 being supported indirectly ) It was pretty much a win win situation all around, except for the poor guy who sold his daughter to make money in Pattaya, and even they seemed to do OK. Old timers might remember the guy selling "Groucho" glasses outside the Royal Garden mall. He lasted years, and of course the legless man selling flowers from a wheelchair is still on Walking Street. BUT, nothing fun lasts forever. First it was the big resorts moving in, attracting an undesirable clientel, and following them, the money men seeing an opportunity to make a bundle, if only they could get rid of those pesky bars and the women along Beach Road giving the place an undesirable reputation. I don't know why they chose Pattaya, rubbish beach, terrible roads, congestion, floods in the rainy season, sewage smell, water shortage in the dry season, etc etc. Whatever, they came, and from then on the pressure to push out the bars and the girls. Then to finish it off, scum toxin and his equally henious minion puritanical laid waste to all western nightlife in the Kingdom, reducing it to but a pale shadow of its once glorious heights. No prizes for guessing what came after; the punters seem to be coming less at the same time as the number of bars is increasing, which means, inevitably, less money between more bars and girls. All this leads to the "base" of poor people not making enough to survive on, which in turn leads to an increase in crime and so on and so on. I was there then, and the crime rate went from insignificant to a serious problem.

Now, not many people are happy in Pattaya. The punters aren't happy as prices have gone up, the bar owners aren't happy as they don't make much money, and the girls aren't happy, as customers are few and far between ( and the vet still needs paying to cure the sick buffalo ).

Once again, I can't fortell the future, but to guess, I'd say that Pattaya will become more like Hua Hin. Few bars, hidden away down side streets, more expensive prices for girls, more expensive hotels, less fun all around. I don't think the bar scene will disappear completely, but it won't be worth going to Pattaya for. The Phillipines will probably take over that side of things.

IMO, it will become a place for western and Asian package tourists.

As for the "base"; as more expensive resorts move in, I guess they'll be forced out of the more upmarket areas, becoming criminals to prey on homeowners in the suburbs. I can't see them just quietly going back to the country to live in poverty.

The one "bright spot" on the horizon ( for me ) is the current economic downturn. If that becomes a "first world" depression western tourists certainly won't be going to cr** hole Pattaya, no matter how many fancy shopping malls they build, and any depression in the west is going to wipe out China's current prosperity boom, so no more vast numbers of Asian tourists either. In that case, everything goes back to the way it was, as no depression is going to keep the real "Pattayalovers" away.

Anyway, innovator, that's how I see it.

I agree that crime is everywhere....but in your face type of touts and crime is not running rampant everywhere, but seems to be out of control in Pattaya city, tourist areas (beach road, 2nd road, 3rd road, South Pattaya and soi 17).

Some close calls for me....an accident at the intersection and a Thai man brandishing a gun and quickly tucking it into his back pocket as I walked on by....I wonder, what was he up to??? I don't remember coming into visual contact, face to face with a gunman ever.

I am sure that some areas in England and America, ya da ya da yada have crime, but this seems to be a nightly occurence in a small area. Pattaya is small compared to L.A. or South St. Louis, so it is hard to say that crime is everywhere. It is not really comparing apples to apples. Pattaya has daily crime and it is spreading and increasing in such a small area. Hard to compare that to the size of L.A., Flint Michigan or some other mamouth cities like Detroit. So, if you put the size into perspective, along with the fact that Pattaya is billed and marketed as a family/holiday/paradise resort, then it does not meet up to this expectation. Nobody is marketing or advertising for people to come holiday or live in Watts/Flint/S. Chicago/S. St. Louis, or any other dangerous area.

So, we need to look at Pattaya as an individual case and cannot compare it to industrial and commercial hubs, or major cities in the west. Pattaya is suppoed to be a prestine, lovely family resort in Asia...according to the T.A.T. and the marketing brochures. But, it seems that it has more than it's fair share of gang related crime and other criminal elements.

If they can clean it up, which they are trying to do, then it could become a nice city.

The greedy people have been trying to change Pattaya to a family oriented place for well over 10 years now, no doubt so they can make lots of moolah, but, innovator, get the reality, since the 70's it's always been a place for booze, girls ( boys/ ladyboys ) and sex. No amount of marketing can change that!

Ironically, the crime only started to get bad AFTER Toxin and his sidekick Puritanical tried to destroy Thailands western nightlife by cutting down bar opening hours and making GoGo girls cover up etc etc. I was in Pattaya before and after, so I do know what it was like.

It's a conundrum; we'd all like the traffic to get sorted, and the criminals to go away, but at the moment, they're all that keep the capitalist swine from turning Pattaya into yet another cr***y family resort town, like Hua Hin. So on the balance, given the choice of a nice city with families and few girls, high prices, like so many towns in Thailand, or Pattaya the way it is, I'll keep the latter.

Second, the ladies are all available here, but they don't work for short time/ long time fees. Here, you simply take a walk around and look for a cutie...it takes a few days to spot the good one, and then, you can ask her for dinner or ice cream. A simple date. Don't expect to hit the hay within the same day, but if you can wait a few days, not weeks, a few days, then you can have a lovely girl. The long term payoff is much greater too because you found one in a normal area and you will not be paying on a daily or monthly basis for her time.

If you start the relationship off by paying for the girl, then you have set the tone for the balance of the relationship.

However, if you start out dating for a few days, you will gain a relationship that is not based on money. (you will pay for dinner, clothes, movies in the long run, but you will not be paying a monthly salary or giving money for buffalo/thai man/mamma/pappa/car/house/land/gold/phone/motorbike/ and other types of nonsense.

Ah, there's the rub. It takes days, and then the usual dating ritual. If the average punter arriving for a 2/3 week holiday has to go through all that just too get some jollies there wouldn't be much point. Might as well stay home.

As well, not everyone wants the "long term" relationship.

I don't think Pattaya is threatened by an exodus to small town Thailand!

To top it all off, the cherry on top of the sundae, the local girls here are far more lovely, younger, and more beautiful than the rags running around Pattaya.

Sure they are. But are they "available", like in Pattaya? Not interested in "look but don't touch". Who'd fly all the way to Thailand just to look!

I left Pattaya a few days ago. I was in Pattaya for the past four years.

In the past 48 hours, my health has improved. I feel very relaxed. No Indian/UK/or other nationality approaching me or running me down on a motorbike. No motorbike taxi drivers clapping and glaring at me. No baht bus drivers honking at me. No disco trucks with speakers blarring at 4am.

No garbage on the street. Nobody attempting to play road frogger with me. No stress about con artists, touts, or criminals staring at me and just waiting for that one mistake to capitalize. No need to lock every item to my body when walking around the town for dinner. (Simple safety is enough).

No attempts to snatch my gold chain from my neck. No condoms or poo poo in any public area. No broken glass shards on the streets, waiting to be used as weapons. No loose stones or bricks on the sidewalks waiting to be used as weapons. No sirens from police or ambulance vehicles at all. No noise pollution whatsoever. (No, I am not living in a field in the sticks, I am living in a normal Thai city, not far from Pattaya). No stories on the local news about farangs jumping out of condos. No local, daily murders to view on the news. No Sword kiilings, then burn the dead farang's house down here either. This list could go on and on and on....

But, I imagine that once a person steps out of that hellhole, their health and life will improve. Pattaya for me will be a place for a very, very short visit on a rare occasion. To top it all off, the cherry on top of the sundae, the local girls here are far more lovely, younger, and more beautiful than the rags running around Pattaya.

Well, I guess we all have our own stories, but I can't agree that your examples make Pattaya a no go area.

I presently live in London, and feel more unsafe here than I ever felt in Pattaya ( I walk around Pattaya at all hours, but using common sense as to not going in risky areas, and never had a problem ).

London is just as filthy as Pattaya, garbage everywhere.

Drunken clubbers peeing everywhere late at night.

Always on the lookout for muggers and pickpockets.

Feral youths looking for trouble, and knifing people at random.

Police and ambulance sirens most nights.

Enormous amount of noise pollution.

People being burned to death in arson attacks.

The list could go on and on.

So you feel safer now, but that's probably 'cause it's a nice quiet boring town. Some of us CHOOSE Pattaya for the exciting lifestyle, but no one is forcing anyone to stay if they want to leave.

Incidentally, why would you wear a gold chain out and about? There have been warnings NOT to wear anything expensive out and about for many many years. Just common sense!