JimGant

If the Code is so nonsensical, as in the "must file if assessable income is 60k, and thus must get a TIN" -- and then it appears TRD pays no attention to enforcing it -- I think this is a prima facie case for "common sense."

Like, I need a TIN, 'cause I have assessable income of 60K -- and the TRD Code says I need to file a tax return. And the agent says, "That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of; nobody's ever come in here saying they have to file a tax return, even tho', after factoring in TEDA, they'd need another 500k of assessable income -- to finally have any taxable income." Such people we throw out on their ear -- as we take positive steps against stupid rules. Where do all these stupid farangs asking for TINs get their info? Aseannow? What's that -- a crack pot service? The locals never beg for TINs they don't need. Crazy farangs.

Right. So don't post any more "hand on heart" input on this subject. The smart readers already have enough info from which to decide on whether or not getting a TIN is required.

Actually, it sounds like complete B*** S***. Until you actually have taxable income, and until then don't need a TIN, sit down and shut up. But, yes, I assume, if you tell -- and maybe show -- TRD that you have a taxable income situation -- they'll gladly issue a TIN. Otherwise, yes, then a situation for escalation.

Of course that's what he's saying. He'll quote the 60/120/220 threshold mantra -- only to watch their eyes glaze over. Then, when they call the funny farm police, and drag him out, he'll be foaming at the mouth.

How about common sense?

No, go back and read all the lead-up to where an assessment officer enters the picture. It's where a return is "suspect" because of math errors, or some other out-of-sync number inclusions. The routinely filed "self-assessed" return will -- unless it raises a flag of some sort -- just be accepted, with the payment banked, or the over withheld taxes refunded. I would assume they have some kind of software algorithm to do a cursory screening of tax returns for blatant errors. But it's nonsensical, from a cost standpoint, to have assessment officers hold everyone's hand, and go over their tax returns -- at least initially. But, if problems discovered down the road, then, yeah, time to come to TRD for an audit.

This circular discussion was once again brought up by you, a few posts ago, the one I responded to -- you know, the "Hand on heart I don't understand why folks are so averse to obtaining a Thai TIN." We've been over and over the pros and cons of this, to the point that it's getting ridiculous. The reader can digest your views and my views -- and then decide for himself. Give it a rest, and allow the clear thinkers to drive over the speed limit, if they assess the advantage far exceeds any potential penalty. So, shut up about getting a TIN if assessable income exceeds 60k baht -- and I'll shut up about my workers rightfully ignoring their requirement to file a tax return.

What tax liability? I have none, because my assessable income is exceeded by TEDA, and the 150k freebie. Thus, no tax liability. And, I would imagine, TRD is not interested in audits for anyone without a TIN, especially for a random compliance audit-- i.e., a TIN puts you on their radar screen. No thanks. I just wonder where KBank got their instructions, on their page one of request for info, that "No Thai TIN needed if no taxable income." Maybe they, and all those TRDs sending away posters here asking for TINs, with no taxable income -- have access to adult sources of govt...... If the bank will accept that TIN to stop withholding -- not a given. But for Yanks, not having one means you can insert your Thai taxes on interest on a single line of your 1040 -- and reduce one for one your US taxes. No need, nor effort, for a Thai TIN, nor efforts to recover those lost Thai taxes, should you have to file to recover. Just one entry on your US 1040. No brainer. Anyway, the real red flag here are those 60/120/220k thresholds that say you must file a return -- and thus get a TIN -- if assessable income exceeds one of these thresholds. Very unrealistic -- and thus not (knowlingly) enforced. Case in point: All my household help, if they complied with the law, would have to get a TIN and file a return. Not likely, considering they don't have the time nor the ability to do such. I'm sure this applies to most all the self employed in Thailand -- you really think all those rice farmers, maids, gardeners, street vendors, etc -- are going to file if they pass a threshold? Of course not. Thus these thresholds are essentially meaningless -- and certainly would not be enforced by an even half-rational TRD. So, save yourself wasted time by being denied a TIN at your local TRD -- and wasted shoe leather. Or even the advertised 7000-12000 baht fee by agents to get you a TIN, should a TRD denial , because you have no taxable income, force you down this path. Bottom line: For sure, if you have Thai taxable income, and thus owe Thai taxes -- get a TIN and file a tax return. Otherwise, ignore agent advertisement that push you to get an unnecessary TIN -- for a high fee. And ignore do-gooders on this forum, whose reason for pushing getting a TIN -- is beyond me. These are the same folks who claim, "I'm not giving advice." But I certainly am -- when I suggest tidbits to help the reader decide for himself.

Not certain of the context for this statement, but the KBank request for info only requires a Thai TIN -- if you have "Thai taxable income," meaning if income subject to Thai taxation (i.e., assessable income) exceeds deductions, exemptions, and the 150k freebie. If not, you leave that request -- on page one of KBank request -- blank. Then explain why you left it blank on page two. If a US citizen, you're asked to provide Form W9 -- which will provide your US SSN, which equates to a TIN.

As it says on page one of the KBank request for info -- no Thai TIN required -- if you have no Thai taxable income, i.e., no taxes owed, 'cause your assessable income is less than deductions, exemptions, and the 150k freebie. So, why waste your time -- and possible frustration from being denied a TIN (as recorded many times on this forum) because you have no taxable income. Or, worse, pay an agent 7-12k baht to get you that unnecessary TIN. If you want (don't believe it's required), in the comment section of KBank's page two -- you could mention "Left Thai TIN block blank due to no taxable income."

Yes. And, again -- fungibilty -- requires you to go to an accounting system that can't rely on cost and sales price of specific lots -- 'cause you ain't got any specific lots or tranches.

Don't tell them anything. Just keep good notes about how much of that 12/31/2023 balance was subsequently remitted.

Read the BP on fungible accounts. Say your account in question had $100k on 12/31/2023; and in 2024 this account has a reinvested interest amount of $5k. Under FIFO -- your option to use -- that $5k is not assessable until the entire amount of $100k has been remitted to Thailand, which maybe would be several years away. Then that 2024 reinvested interest -- and any since -- would be assessable if remitted to Thailand.

No, not assessable -- at least initially. Whatever your account balance was on 31 Dec 2023 -- this is all non assessable, until this amount has been totally remitted. Then, yes, reinvested interest now becomes assessable. Why? Because of the fungibility of money, i.e., no specificity of individual lots possible. Thus, you're allowed to use FIFO (first in, first out), which, of course, means everything before that post 2023 interest. See this article from a 2012 Bangkok Post:

Thank you very much. I really appreciate that.....

Sadly, there's nothing in Thai related DTAs, at least the US-Thai DTA, that addresses this situation. Here's how this was gotten around in the UK-US DTA, as regards a tax exempt Roth distribution:

Never mentioned the 60/120/220 thresholds for mandatory filing -- that's irrelevant to what's actually taxable income. And what I was responding to was the page one of the KBank request for information, where it says you're only required to have a Thai TIN *IF* you have "taxable income." Thus, my defining of taxable income is: what's left after subtracting out TEDA. So, in my case, with a TEDA of 560k -- I have no taxable income until my assessable income exceeds 560k -- and no need to get a TIN if I have no taxable income.

So, they're going to check every return for math errors and correct assumptions? What ever happened to the advertised self-assessment principal? By the way, taxable income is literally income upon which some tax is owed. Thus, you would necessarily have to factor in the freebie tax band to arrive at taxable income -- that 150k tax band functions as just another deduction.

Sounds like what happened with the implementation of FATCA, when banks had to have new customers ascertain whether or not they were Yanks. This was back in 2015, and the banks were supposed to then go back to pre-2015 customers and get their bonafides. This was not an option -- Thailand had entered into an agreement, and thus their banks had to fall in line. I don't know if the banks had to survey all farangs, or just those with indications of being a Yank (you know, handsome, good teeth, large bank account). I had had a Bangkok Bank account from well before 2015 -- and never got a survey (maybe that missing front tooth). Or, maybe because I hadn't updated my new email address..... Anyway, this new survey going on -- obviously at the behest of the Thai govt, not just KBank -- is due to the recent signing on by Thailand with CRS. That they're rolling up FATCA folks too might mean they were told to complete some unfinished business. Dunno. Maybe I should expect an email soon from Bangkok Bank, tho I still haven't updated my email address. No matter -- and no big deal -- unless your international financial data is suspect....

Actually, the only place I can see, where they ask you to enter your Thai TIN, is the first paragraph on page one, right under where they ask for your passport number. Here they say: Thai TIN mandatory, if you have Thai taxable income (and thus must file a Thai tax return). For me, having Thai taxable income would be if my assessable income exceeded my TEDA of 560k baht. Since my assessable income is well below this number, I don't have a need to file, and thus no TIN (even tho' the shyster accounting firms say I need one, 'cause my assessable income exceeds 60k). Anyway, I'd explain this lack of TIN in the comment section on page 2. As a Yank, this form is for the purposes of satisfying FATCA reporting requirements -- and I would thus have to file a form W9 (included in the package). This form would have my Social Security number, which is all the US is interested in for identification -- not a Thai TIN.

Agree one hundred percent. But, why the new conclusion -- this gift exemption from income taxes has been in limbo for ages...... Some new information -- or just enlightenment.? Anyway, common sense (that annoying tie breaker term) says: No difference, if assessable income is sent to Thailand, and the receiver is: 1. My bank account. 2. My wife's bank account. 3. My GF's bank account.4. Real estate agency, for purchase of new condo. 5. Society for the saving of soi dogs. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it might be a gift -- but that's irrelevant to source of remittance -- and related tax bill. This subject attracts a lot of energy. And the logical answer annoys a lot of folks looking for an angle. But, hey, go ahead and believe you see a grey area -- and file your tax return accordingly. Probably will get away with it -- and if you really see a grey area, you can sleep comfortably, believing you're not a tax evader -- should you have any morals regarding taxes.

The forms to be filled in require providing both my Belgian tax number and a Thai Internal Revenue TIN-number. Actually, if you can't provide a Thai TIN, you can explain this in the comment section of page 2. And, since -- as they point out in red at the very top of the form -- that you only need a Thai TIN, if you have taxable income (and, by extension, must pay Thai taxes, and thus file a return) -- then, if this is the case for you, i.e., you had no taxable income, 'cause your deductions and exemptions exceeded your assessable income -- no requirement to get a Thai TIN. Anyway, don't waste your time getting a TIN, if no taxable income, and thus no requirement to get one. Explain this in the comment section. And, no harm, no foul.

Thanx for the input. Seems, maybe, TRD is fishing for null tax returns,,,,,,, Can anyone suggest why?

Hey, you got me on the literal reading of the code. -- it's there for all to ponder and cast amazing glances towards. My argument has been, like so many not-well-thought-out laws about many things -- folks who can analyze matters, and who can think, move on, away from ludicrous legal decrees -- and often these decrees disappear in the quiet of the night. My contention -- having to file when no taxes are due -- fits in this category of ludicrous decrees. But, we'll see. Maybe TRD wants to look at 1000 dead trees of null tax returns, with no payment -- not that there would be anything there to suggest that certain income was not reported. Thus, I cannot imagine their continuing quest for null returns......which leads me to believe, that smarter folks at TRD, will come to more pragmatic conclusions. Anyway, cheers. Your input has been invaluable to the reader -- as I hope has been mine, and many others. More discussion to come on this -- some kind of a US Podcast on this on 28 Nov? No conclusions really possible at this juncture.