JimGant

On 2/19/2024 at 12:34 AM, DrPhibes said:

So, if I gift my non-working thai wife 3,000,000 baht of US work earnings to her separate US bank account yearly in the United States, create a doc that specifies that it is a gift, then wire that money from that separate account to my wife's separate Thai bank account, then she moves a bit of that money into my separate Thai bank account to add to my US Social Security (non-taxable to Thailand by virtue of tax treaty) coming to my separate account, we have no tax obligation to Thailand.

Your US gift to your wife has no US gift tax obligation. And, it is understood that such monies are after-tax monies (or soon will be, once you pay any taxes in arrears). And, with the prevailing understanding that Thailand holds any income taxed by the home country as tax exempt by Thailand -- then, whether or not this money is sent by you direct to Thailand, or by your wife from her account where you deposited her gift -- there's no assessable income involved. But, as stated ad nauseum, this is all part of the self-assessment of the monies you remit to Thailand, plus the requirement to keep good, defensible records.

So, having said all that, there's no need to filter money through a wife's account in the guise of a gift. Yes, if you do, she can easily transfer some of that from her Thai acct. to your Social Security bank account. Or, you could just send that money direct to your Social Security bank account in Thailand, secure in the knowledge that this is not assessable income for Thai tax purposes.

6 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The term, "taxed at source", in the context of funds remitted to Thailand, refers to funds being taxed once they arrive in the taxpayers account in Thailand.

Actually, "taxed at source" is literal, and means taxes withheld by the payer to the payee. Perhaps a better descriptor would be "taxed at entry point." But whatever it's called, there certainly will not be any income taxation on a fungible lump of monies arriving in Thailand. Common sense prevails here.

On 2/19/2024 at 9:05 PM, Dogmatix said:

Gifts to a spouse are exempt up to 20 million a year and it is in writing in the form of a Royal Decree amending the Revenue Code. It is also in writing that gifts from spouse to spouse remitted from overseas are also exempted up to 20 million a year in case study published by the RD which I posted a little earlier in this thread.

Let's not confuse income tax with gift tax. A gift tax is a 5% tax on gift amounts exceeding 20M/10M, depending on recipient. But, gifts are all from "after tax" monies, so there's no escaping income tax by calling a remitted amount of money a "gift." If a remitted amount qualifies as assessable income, this assessable amount is not affected by whether or not it is characterized as a "gift." Nice try, however.

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

As said previously, that 20,000 baht is the amount of interest that can be paid before banks start to deduct 15% with  holding at source. 

Actually, starting three years or so ago, banks started withholding on all interest paid to accounts with a foreigner's name attached. Thus, I started having withholding on my 800k retirement account, plus on the joint account with my wife ('cause the account had a foreigner's name included). But, no such tax wthheld from my wife's bank accounts, which only had her Thai ID attached, as she hadn't been required to mention her dual citizen US ID. This is blatant discrimination according to the DTA between US and Thailand -- but who's to complain?

4 hours ago, TigerCat said:

Do you by any chance know if If a person pays the United States tax on Thailand bank interest with FBARs, does the Double Tax Treaty make them exempt from having to pay taxes on Thai bank interest in Thailand? 

FBAR reporting is completely divorced from taxable interest on foreign accounts. If you send $10001 to Thailand, then you had over $10000 in the Thai banking system for at least one day -- and you're required to file a FBAR. But if you took that $10001 out of the bank the next day, to buy a car, then you earned no interest on that -- thus no FBAR related earned interest for the year. That you had to report your foreign interest on Schedule B, which also asks about any FBAR filing requirement -- is incidental, as this is just a way for them to have you acknowledge your FBAR filing requirement. Only if you had $400,000 in Thai banks on Dec 31 would you have to file an income related form on your 1040 filing (filing jointly), under FATCA (not FBAR) filing instructions. A situation most of us aren't in...

You indicated in an earlier report that you had between 20k and 60k baht of interest from Thai bank accounts. My recommendation would be to let the Thai 15% withholding at source remain, then when you file your US tax return, take this as a tax credit against your US taxes. If above $600 filing jointly, which it sounds like you are, you'll need to file a Form 1116, which is no big deal -- and allows for a carryover, for any disallowed interest. Yes, the rules say, "If you can get the foreign taxes refunded, then you're required to do that." However, if you can't get a Thai TIN, because you don't have a work permit (or whatever) -- and which you need to get a tax refund -- you can just quote denials for TINs from expat forums like this. That some have gotten TINs is nice -- but in the unlikely situation where you get an IRS letter audit -- just quote an expat who had negative results with getting a TIN; you're not required to wear out shoe leather looking for the exception.

This sounds a "little over the top." It's not, because you're not evading or avoiding taxes -- you're just paying the taxes to the country who has "first dibs" on them, and avoiding double taxation to a country who demands taxation on all worldwide income. Just wish I had had such ethically pure situations doing taxes for flight crews, and arguing with the IRS that shoes with metal inserts are "uniform only" items, and thus deductible.

15 hours ago, JimGant said:

If your local Immigration office does not offer the one-year report service, you or your representative will need to visit the Immigration office at Chamchuri Square in Bangkok to complete the report.

Yeah, but then they go on to say that if you do use the mail, just use the SMART guidance, but change the TM91 to TM95 (they're identical, except one says "SMART," the other "Ltr Visa.")

Doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that Immigration would accept my mail in... But, I've got a few months to see is someone is successful with this option....

Here's one to puzzle over. The following is what I sent today to the LTR folks:

Quote

Hi, I have a LTR WP visa, and in about five months, I'll have to do my annual one year address report. And as I don't plan to travel, this date is firm. However, there seems to be confusion on how I'm to make this address report. Your website still has as a requirement coming in person to Bangkok, or sending an agent. But, that SMART desk next to you, advertises one year reporting by mail, with a very definitive address to send to; what the return envelope should look like; postage amount; etc. Why haven't the LTR folks emulated this very efficient procedure? Nor is it clear whether or not I could do this in person at my local Chiang Mai Immigration (not that any one there would understand the process.....). But, my local post office is a lot closer than CM Immigration. Anyhow, a little more definitive guidance would be welcomed. Thank you.

 Their answer:

Quote

Please note that currently, the online reporting system only supports the 90-day report. The one-year report for Smart visa is different and cannot be completed online.

If you intend to submit the one-year report physically by mail, please be aware that it carries significant risks. The process may take an extended period, possibly several months, as regular mail is used, not EMS. Furthermore, there is no tracking available for regular mail, increasing the possibility of documents getting lost in transit.

We strongly advise against this option unless it's the only available method for you. For information on completing the one-year report via registered mail, please refer to the document attached to this email: https://smart-visa.boi.go.th/smart/pages/how-to-manage.html

Please change the form TM.91 to TM.95 as attached here: https://ltr.boi.go.th/documents/TM_95.pdf

While some local Immigration offices may offer the one-year report service, it's essential to confirm this directly with them. Each Immigration Bureau operates differently, and not all may provide this service.

If your local Immigration office does not offer the one-year report service, you or your representative will need to visit the Immigration office at Chamchuri Square in Bangkok to complete the report.

Kind regards,
LTR Visa Unit

I dunno. I did my 90 day reports for years via EMS mail, which to me is the same as registered mail, without problem. I even had the return self addressed envelope as EMS. Their answer that the mail route could "take several months," because it's regular mail, not EMS is nonsensical. Believe they're trying to maintain agent business for the certified agents they've signed up. Just my guess, but otherwise it makes no sense, as SMART visa holders have had no problem with mail annual address notifications, as far as I know.

Nevertheless, I sure don't have a warm fuzzy about doing my annual report by mail, at least until I hear some reports of success, which I havent' as of yet, at least on this thread.

5 hours ago, JimHuaHin said:

One of my points is, my super contributions were taxed, not my benefits, thus Australian taxes were paid from 1979 until 2013 (when I stopped working).  No taxes to be paid on benefits, thus no taxes paid post 2013, as benefits are considered non-taxable income.

 

Thus, no offset to Thai tax liability.

Thai tax returns don't even have line items for foreign tax credits. So, even if you paid home country taxes on your benefits, and not on your contributions, how you'd finagle a tax credit into your Thai tax return is still an unknown...

But, in the spirit of "no double taxation," I'd just come up with the amount of taxes you paid for 24 years on your contributions. Then, pro rate that amount over all and any future Thai tax obligations. If they never come up with a tax return with line items for credits, well then, just do an excel worksheet of what your Thai taxes would look like, then amortize enough of your 24 year payments to Oz to cover that Thai tax bill, and keep the paperwork in your upper left hand drawer, should the tax police come knocking (neve' hapin). But, no need to file a tax return, since you've eliminated any taxes owed. If they come up with a tax return with credit line items -- well, again amortize that 24 year chunk of change, covering a little more than your Thai tax bill (exact amount would look suspicious). Again, don't file -- no taxes owed, no fines assessed, no jail time. Easy.

Anyway, nothing nefarious about this. You paid one country the taxes, the other country gives you a credit for that. No tax cheating (but maybe slightly in disaccord with the DTA, where Thailand, not Australia, issues the credit. Nevermind.) You're 100% OK in the integrity block; but maybe a little wobbly in the execution mechanics. Just keep good notes on all this math.  Now, if Immigration asks for a tax return for future retirement extensions - come back to this forum and we'll kick the can down the soi a little further.....

8 minutes ago, TigerCat said:

The source of the funds were created in 2023, and years prior. I have been here more than 180 days (10 years) so I assume that makes me a Thai Tax Resident when I received the funds? 

Yeah, but the monies remitted are pre 2024, so they are not assessable/taxable as income. That you have to pay a purchase tax to the land office is a completely different matter.

43 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

What of the sum required to be in a Thai bank remitted from abroad and/or topped up from abroad for extensions of visas?

What of it? I wire funds from a savings account originally funded 11 years ago, and containing more than enough for any future wires to Thailand. My Wise wires to Thailand go from this fund, thus it's all from pre 2024 income, and thus exempt from Thai taxation. But, if I put my Air Force retirement checks and Social Security checks into a new checking account -- and Wise transfer from that? Again, it's all tax exempt per the DTA. But if that account also had private pension deposits (taxable by Thailand, via the DTA) -- then I'd just say that all remittances from this checking account first came from Air Force pensions and Social  Security. Any overage, then, would then tap into that private pension, and thus I would be in the accounting situation of saying that this overage is, yes, assessable (taxable) income for Thai tax purposes. As of right now, I'm in the driver's seat for accounting what monies are from what tranches in the financial accounts from which I wire money to Thailand from. The Thai tax folks are in no position to question the complexion of your remitted income -- that's necessarily up to you, if and when any such income becomes subject to a Thai tax return.

24 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm pretty sure they will allow the UK PA and other countries personal allowances and exemptions, otherwise it becomes too complex given the various tax bodies, forms and rules involved. The Thai RD wants to be sure the money you import isn't illegally sourced and that it has been declared somewhere, drilling down to exemptions and allowance is unlikely to be part of their agenda.

Not sure where on all these threads to jump in on -- but maybe here's ok.

Early in this drill we saw where Thai RD said, "have a DTA and show a tax return from home country -- and you're home free from Thai taxation." I think their original thinking is still in place.

Why? Because of the simplicity, and thus no new hires and expenses to deal with tax credits against Thai taxation, whatever. So, if you can show a tax return from your home country -- which has a DTA with Thailand (or maybe even not, as it really doesn't factor in) -- that's it. Show it to Immigration for your annual extension. They don't need to go through the numbers -- that would be nonsensical -- they just need to see a home country tax return, even it it doesn't indicate any taxes being paid (because standard deduction exceeds gross income, etc). Not that they would even notice, nor need to.

But, what if you have no home country tax return, because you're one of those lucky ones who haven't had to pay any taxes, to anyone, since retiring here in Thailand? Well, now, without a home country tax return to show, you now have to show a Thai tax return. And this tax return, if you've been honest, may just show taxes owed and paid. Or maybe not -- Immigration won't care -- they're just interested in the fact that you can produce a Thai tax return, in the absence of a home country tax return. Just another requirement, on top of a bank statement, TM30, whatever. No real additional cost to Immigration's overhead -- just the need to produce either a home country tax return, or a Thai tax return -- one more block for Immigration to check.

Anyway, seems logical to me. For those of us paying home country taxes, I guess (as a Yank), I'll just need to flash my 1040 return to Immigration. No home country tax return? -- well, best learn how to file a Thai tax return -- and welcome to the world of having to pay someone taxes. Fair is fair.

On 2/9/2024 at 4:53 PM, The Cyclist said:

Answer: There's no double taxation for residents of Thailand. When residents of Thailand pay tax on income abroad, it can be credited against the tax payable in Thailand according to the Double Tax Agreements that Thailand has entered into with foreign countries.

Uh, this doesn't track with most DTAs. Take the US-Thai DTA. Private pensions are exclusively taxable by Thailand, the country of residence. That the US also taxes these pensions, as secondary taxation authority, means that, in the interest of avoiding double taxation, the US has to absorb a Thai taxation credit. As such, the US may realize no taxes, should the Thai credits exceed the US tax bill. And Thailand, as exclusive taxation authority, gets to keep the whole tax collection, without any offset from US tax credits.

Thus, to say that all Thai taxation will be offset by taxes paid to the home country on this income -- in all situations -- is pure baloney. Thailand, if they have any gumption, will apply the DTA to their benefit, and apply full taxation to those monies indicated by the DTA -- and provide a tax credit for this full taxation to the home country.

How this will work out in practice, I don't know. Amended tax returns, maybe, to slip that Thai tax credit into home country taxation? I just know Thailand probably will not give up taxes by absorbing tax credits that the DTA says should go the other way. 

Whatever. For most of us, this just means our total tax bill will be the same, only, if Thailand is smart, they'll monitor what's due them via the DTAs. And tax appropriately.

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

This is normal. All bank interest is deducted 15% tax at source, some banks will not do this if you show them a TIN but not all. Tax paid on interest on Fixed Deposits cannot be stopped, you must reclaim this via a tax return.

My wife's bank accounts don't have any withholding, since they're well short of the 20000 baht in interest that the Code then requires withholding of everyone -- plus her accounts are only registered with her Thai ID -- no US dual citizen connection. Now mine, of course, are registered with a US connection, thus a 15% withholding. Here's what the US-Thai DTA says about non-discrimination:

Quote

Article 26: Non-Discrimination

Paragraph 1 provides that a national of one Contracting State may not be subject to
taxation or connected requirements in the other Contracting State that are other or more
burdensome than the taxes and connected requirements imposed upon a national of that other
State in the same circumstance.

Hmmmm. Already a foot in the door in thwarting treaty language.

7 hours ago, retarius said:

Thank you for this. I have a 401K account in the US into which untaxed funds went during my working life. It is really deferred income, and so the US taxes any distributions you take. Up to age 70 you can opt not too take any distributions. As I understand it (and I may be wrong), under the US DTA, you can opt to pay the tax in either jurisdiction, Thailand or US.

Actually, Required Minimum Distributions (RMD) now begin at age 73. And, the money in your 401k account is not "deferred income," -- it's earned income in the year paid, with deferred taxation. Thus, all that money paid into your 401k account pre 2024 is exempt from Thai taxation. But, of course, like all worldwide income, it is taxable by the US.

If you take an RMD in 2024, and then remit it to Thailand -- per the DTA, Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on that RMD. But the US also gets to tax it, due to the treaty's saving clause that trumps all DTA language. But here, as Thailand has primary/exclusionary taxation rights -- they get to keep all the taxation, and the US only keeps what's left after applying the Thai taxation credits. Sounds fair to me -- country where I live gets to use my taxes to their and my benefit.

1 hour ago, Robin said:

My retirement plan is t sell my property in UK and liv here on the proceeds.  Will the money from property sale be classified as 'income'? 

Cost of property, plus subsequent capital improvements, certainly aren't income. Profit on the sale (cap gains) would be subject to taxation -- but not double taxation.

Quote

Is moving money (earned 10 years ago) from a usa bank account to Thailand bank now taxable this year? I’ve heard so many answers

 No!!!!

2 hours ago, koolkarl said:

Removed by moderator

That's the biggest load of malarkey ever presented on these threads. Sadly, it will be gobbled up by the non critical thinkers -- kinda a MAGA moment in a foreign country. Jeez.

4 hours ago, LikeItHot said:

For retirement extensions if they want to tax transfers that's fine but to have a mandatory monthly transfer and then taxing it is a scam.

There's never going to be a "withholding at entry point" for any remittances. First and foremost, because remitted cash flows can never parse what is, and what isn't, income. Most probably are after tax capital for investment, living expenses, whatever. And "withholding at source" of income earned in the US, and remitted to Thailand -- is only for non resident aliens. Automatically at 30%, but reduced to treaty rates -- normally 15% -- if the alien files a W-8BEN. So, as a US citizen, any Thai taxation will be up to your self-assessment as to what is subject to Thai taxation via the DTA. Gov't pensions and Social Security are the obvious exemptions from Thai taxes. Sucking it from a pre 2024 bank account would also make it exempt. Just keep good records, in the unlikely event that you are subject to a random compliance audit.

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

They need to keep their Application secure but can't help you if your login data is available for outsiders.

The password certainly wasn't available to outsiders -- it's only written down in the sanctity of my office. That our two IRA accounts that USAA sold to Schwab three years ago had a recent hack attempt on Jan 26 -- but failed, as I had changed the passwords after the USAA transfer caper -- leads me to believe there's mischief about in the inner workings of USAA.

Well, it was on Nov 29th and 30th, when someone transferred $5000 (the max allowed) each day from my USAA checking account to a bank account in Florida. I didn't discover this until Dec 7th, when I logged into my online USAA account to double check bank account balances, to make sure they tallied with mine. When I noticed the transfers, I immediately called USAA's fraud line, and they froze both my and my wife's online USAA accounts (and the bogus transfer conduit). As it turned out, the crook had logged into my wife's online USAA account, set up a transfer account to this bogus account in Florida, and had labelled the owner as my wife. As such, it was allowed to be a "push/pull" account, meaning he could "pull" transfers from his bogus Florida account (USAA never verified that the bogus account's owner was my wife, which, of course, it wasn't). I still don't know if this was a push, or pull operation -- not that it matters, as the results were the same.

Two weeks later, I got a message from the USAA fraud department stating that: "They had discovered no fraud." Period. Huh?!. This meant it had been either me, or my wife, who had sent the $10000 to the bogus account in Florida. They did say that I could call and request a full report on how they arrived at their findings. So, of course, I called -- and was put on hold for 52 minutes. Finally a gruff voice came on, obviously pre briefed on the subject at hand, and told me that USAA doesn't give out reports on cases NOT ruled as fraud! Jeez, this was contrary to what they had said in their message. He did volunteer that, "All traffic related to the transfers was on computers recognized by USAA as mine." End of discourse.

A little investigation on my part, apparently a lot more than they did, discovered that the crook had put a spam filter on my gmail account (the one both me and the wife have as primary for USAA email), meaning, I could not get any correspondence from USAA. I hadn't noticed this, because recent USAA emails had only been perfunctory, i.e, not any warnings, like: "New transfer account set up -- was this you?" And, of course, with the spam filter, I wouldn't have -- and didn't -- get any such warnings! A later look in the gmail spam folder, however, showed much of the missing USAA email correspondence. Smart crook. And, how did I realize I was getting blocked from USAA email? When I went to unfreeze my USAA online account, we tried three times to get the one time six digit code sent to my primary email. No luck. But when sent to my secondary email address on file, bingo. That's when I got introduced to spam filters (and that the related folders aren't normally shown, unless requested -- which is why I was in the dark about these missing emails.)

But, of course, the crook didn't have a spam filter on his email reader, so he could read all correspondence from USAA, to include the one time six digit code sent when USAA asked if the crook wanted his computer to be recognized as belonging to my wife's USAA online account. Duh. So this is why the USAA fraud department concluded that I or my wife had conducted the transfers! It didn't dawn on them that, as the crook has access to the wife's USAA account, where he could read the primary email contact address --'cause it is NOT XXXXED out -- that any one time security codes sent to that address would and could be read by the crook. Are they phu****** brain dead!

Anyway, this has all recently been fired to the top of USAA management (unfortunately, run by all civilians -- the Generals McDermotts and Herres long gone). It will be interesting to hear their response, particularly as I included several references to nearly identical situations to mine -- one resolved when a local investigative TV channel got involved.

Sadly, USAA has really gone downhill. They're already paying the Feds $140M in fines, for shoddy security procedures. And the number of complaints you can find online is staggering. I've been a member for 56 years, and it used to feel like a club of officers and senior NCOs. Now, with the Gronkowski  commercials, every swinging d*** who had a dishonorably discharged relative can be a member. Sure ain't the same -- with management on par with its new members.

Oh, put the "[email protected]" in your address book or contact list. This should eliminate someone putting a spam filter over your USAA email contact address. And, do change that password periodically, and go to MFA sign ins. I never changed my or my wife's passwords -- my bad. And her account was dormant, as she's joint with me on all accounts, so only I needed to log into my account to check things. I certainly now check periodically her account for strange activity.

3 hours ago, ikke1959 said:

In Buddhism it is not allowed to take someones life..

 What's that have to do with a procedure to eliminate unwanted protoplasm?