JimGant

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Again, the information I have is that TRD sees both Roth and Traditional as accessable pension income

TRD actually used the phrase "Roth IRA" when they defined assessable income?

53 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Both are accessable pension income if remitted to Thailand. 

Roth IRAs came about in 1998. The Thai-US DTA was signed in Nov 1996. There is no mention of Roth IRAs in the DTA, of course, and no subsequent protocols to address them. How, then, you decide to treat them, especially in light of Por 162, might not be too difficult to do.

45 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Imagine the TRD heads exploding when trying to consider accounting for a pre-tax contribution IRA converted to a post-tax Roth!

You made my day! Keep up the super excellent analysis.

16 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

they always remit the entire proceeds, but he did state that you cannot separate capital from gain.  If you remit partial amount of the sale, it's a percentage of capital and gain.

Actually, if it's only a partial remittance, you can use FIFO to break out principal from gain. If on dec 31 2023 a stock your purchased for $10000 with pre 2024 income was worth $15000 -- and you remitted only $10000 in later years to Thailand -- then there is no assessable income for Thai tax purposes -- per FIFO.

Samo samo gold bar purchased with that same pre 2024 $10000 -- only remit $10000 to Thailand, after you sell gold bar for a gain, or a loss -- no assessable income.

Samo samo Rembrandt painting. Remit only what you paid for it with pre 2024 income, no assessable remittance involved.

Etc. Investments made with pre 2024 income, later sold and cash sent to Thailand, in an amount not exceeding the original cost of investment -- is not taxable by Thailand, per Por 162:

Quote

Order No. Por.162/2566, issued on November 20, 2023, provides further clarification. It states that the new interpretation should not apply to foreign-sourced income earned before January 1, 2024.

11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

As far as the exemption of funds on December 31, 2023:

 

"ONLY CAPITAL FOR BANK ACCOUNTS OR CASH ACCOUNTS" 

OK, I'll drop arguing about IRAs. But, I'll still use my own logic in interpreting Por 162 when I file (or don't file) my Thai taxes. I think the effect of Por 162 is still sorting out.... For example:

What about the near-liquid money market account and the CDs I had on Dec 31 2023? Their value on that date, converted to cash and wired to Thailand post 2023 -- would logically fall under Por 162 (in my mind, anyway). But the guidance from the Webinar, about "only capital for bank accounts or cash accounts" -- seems to not allow this. However, I bet if you asked someone with decision making authority -- and a brain -- at TRD about this, they would not restrict Por 162 to "bank accounts or cash accounts." I'll throw in, "what about the money in my mattress on Dec 31 2023?"

Anyway, when specifics aren't (yet) codified, take the road that's to your advantage. In the minuscule chance you're audited -- if you have a sound, non frivolous argument, as in the above -- worst that can happen, I believe, would be back taxes plus interest. Worth it, IMO.

1 hour ago, Keep Right said:

No way am I going to inform the U.S. of my bank in Thailand.

You tell 'em. First, let's assume you're an honest US Citizen, so you declare your Thai interest from your Thai bank account on your annual US tax filing. Let's say your average amount in the bank is $25000 (850k bt). Based on what Bangkok Bank paid me last year on my savings account interest (.40%) -- that would be $100 in annual interest income to report on my US 1040 tax return. So, that's what you report on Schedule B of the 1040. Or, you don't, 'cause you have no taxable income (standard deduction greater than gross income). Or you don't, 'cause you're dishonest. In any of these situations, it won't matter that Uncle Sam knows you have a Thai bank account, because under FATCA, there's no reporting on aggregated accounts under $50000 at year end ($75000 any time during the year), so in my example, nothing about your account will be forwarded to the US.

But, of course, if you have well over $50000 in Thai bank accounts, and you don't report the interest on these on your US tax filing -- that's why FATCA came about. So, yeah, if you're a tax evader, best not give your SSN to the Thai bank. But, if honest, what's the big deal....?

1 hour ago, WingNut said:

I don't know what your second question refers to exactly, but I didn't find any of her subordinates to be clueless. 

I guess I misinterpreted this:

Quote

The woman who accepted my tax filing also showed no interest in reviewing my attached documents in general. She only asked what they were and why I was submitting them

Sounds clueless to me.

18 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

and now file tax (15 minutes online + bank letter).

So, a bank letter is also required with electronic filing? And this bank letter is what -- your Thai bank's report of all annual remittances received? (That's probably been reported somewhere, but I must have missed it.)

14 hours ago, WingNut said:

The woman who accepted my tax filing also showed no interest in reviewing my attached documents in general. She only asked what they were and why I was submitting them

14 hours ago, WingNut said:

The head of the department responsible for assisting with tax form preparation had specifically advised to me prior that submitting a tax return without any supporting documents, just a single income figure on the form, is not recommended as it could raise questions.

I'm a little confused.... Did you voluntarily submit supporting documents/bank statements -- or was this a requirement of this office? Did you advise the head of the dept that his subordinates didn't have a clue....?

32 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

In the meantime remit Y-1 income, early in year Y, so it is easy to prove you've done things by their book.

Yeah, be proactive to the extent possible -- even if their book is in complete disarray, and it's up to you to determine 'worst case.'

27 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Honestly I have given thought to this quite a while ago, and speculated that the tax reform was on the books when the LTR was being implemented,

Yeah, maybe BOI was advertising: "New rule coming into effect in Sept 2023 -- Por 161 -- but getting a LTR visa will grandfather you under the old rules, of no tax on income remitted in later year." Perhaps, then, BOI should take a course in marketing -- and how subterfuge can be negative in the long run.

27 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Canadian pensions (and similar remunerations) are to be exclusively taxed in Canada.  So if such Canadian pensions is one's only income remitted to Thailand (and one has no local income), one could extrapolate from that a conclusion that an expatriate in Thailand in receipt of a Canadian pensions (or similar remuneration from Canada) as their only income, need not file a Thailand tax return.

Of course! You're beginning to overthink this situation, as it is one of the non gray areas. Sadly, not more are such.

Yeah, these motorcycle food deliverers are an annoyance -- speeding, weaving in and out of traffic. Sure, time is money. That one met his comeuppance, however, seems like justice -- although dying for being an annoyance seems a little harsh... Oh well.

On 1/30/2025 at 5:23 AM, webfact said:

Thaksin reassured his audience that he is providing strategic support to bolster the government's efforts to rejuvenate the economy.

Toxin's a friggin' interloper. Period. He and Elon Musk both have egos and heads way too large...

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

I'm no tax expert, but there doesn't appear to me to be much wriggle room there.

Hope the Por 162 redefines the DTA's taxability parameters.

7 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Thailand therefore won't accept a tax credit for any US tax paid on remitted IRA withdrawals. Instead, Thai tax must be paid on the portion of distributions remitted to Thailand and then a tax credit applied to US taxes

Spot on. DTA gives Thailand "exclusive" taxation authority on remitted IRAs. But the US, per the saving clause, has secondary taxation rights -- but has to absorb a tax credit for the Thai taxes paid.

Por 162, in redefining IRA remittances as not post 2023 income, has trumped the DTA language, that gave Thailand exclusive taxation rights on remitted IRAs. Thus, taxation of US traditional IRAs is solely by the IRS.

24 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Both Roth and Traditional withdrawals are classed as accessable PENSION income if remitted

Actually, per Por 162 they are not assessable income, since their funding and reinvested earnings are all pre 2023 income (except for any reinvested income post 2023). But, this premise is not in stone, since some folks maintain Por 162 exempted income only applied to liquid bank holdings on 12/31/23. But some folks are wrong.

6 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Yes, but those are all pre-tax contributions.  Withdrawals of a traditional IRA are considered income in the year of withdrawal. 

Yes, tax deferred income -- but pre 2023 income nevertheless. And, yes, when I take my Required Minimum Distribution of my traditional IRA in 2025, it will be fully taxable by the IRS. And per DTA -- if Por 162 had never come about -- Thailand has exclusive taxation on my remitted IRA (but the US also taxes it, per the saving clause, but has to absorb a tax credit for the Thai taxes).

But, Por 162 did come about. And, by my reckoning, it says it is now not taxable by Thailand, 'cause it's pre 2023 income. So, what we're left with is: IRA withdrawal still fully taxable by IRS. But no tax credit to absorb, since Thailand can't tax it, per Por 162. So, you now pay full fare to Uncle Sam -- and nothing to Thailand. Bottom line: Full fare taxation to US, no taxes to Thailand under Por 162 would probably be same/similar, in total taxes paid, to paying taxes to Thailand, but having that same amount subtracted from US taxes, per credit. Thus, a wash.

2 hours ago, Pib said:

Another question dealt with the pre-2024 income exemption as to if that applied to cash only like in your bank account and investment accts also.  The lawyer's answer for "cash only"  accounts. 

Guavaman had an exchange with TRD, with the same question:

Quote

Q6: Is a statement from a financial institution that is a stock brokerage acceptable evidence to show cash income derived prior to 1 January 2024 in a brokerage account as of 31 December 2023?

A6: A statement from a financial institution that is a stock brokerage is acceptable evidence to show cash income derived prior to 1 January 2024 in a brokerage account as of 31 December 2023.

Expatthai tax vs TRD ('tho it wasn't at the highest level of TRD).

56 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

• Any local Revenue Department branch office.
• Post offices, only those located in Bangkok. They can send their tax return by registered mail together with a check or money order for the total tax due,

Thanx for the reply. Only Bangkok post offices seems a little lame...

2 hours ago, Guavaman said:

It appears that some advisers/experts are stating that only cash in the bank qualifies as pre-2024 income, referred to by AN users as "savings." This appears to be a practical approach to implementing P. 162 exempting taxation on pre-2024 income. 

Actually, it appears to be a cop out. For clarity, let's look at the other side of the Por 162 coin:

Quote

If a foreigner derives income from sources outside Thailand, such income is subject to income tax if such income has been earned in any tax year starting from 1 January 2024 onward by a foreigner who stays in Thailand for 180 days or more in a tax (calendar) year.

Money cashed out from my IRA, not to exceed the value on 12/31/23, is certainly all pre 2023 income -- the tax deferred earnings used to fund the IRA, plus the annual reinvested capital gains. And, for sure, any post 2023 withdrawals, turned into cash, would NOT be post 2023 earned income, if remitted to Thailand. That it took 15 hours to convert the IRA withdrawal to a bank deposit -- how does that make it so different from a liquid bank account on 12/31/23?

Sell my car, bought with pre 2023 income, and send that money to Thailand post 2023. No remitted income here (and, as a non collector's item, no cap gain). Samo samo golf clubs, household furniture, boat, blah blah.

Stock mutual funds held by Schwab. All cap gains/dividends have either been reinvested or paid to me. In either case, the value of this mutual fund on 12/31/23 represents all pre 2023 income. Sell enough to represent 12/31/23 value and remit to Thailand -- no post 2023 income here.

That some advisors are saying "only cash in the bank only qualifies as pre-2024 income" -- doesn't cut it, when contrasted to the other side of the Por 162 coin, namely: Only post 2023 earnings are subject to Thai income tax, if remitted. All those cash-outs I've mentioned hardly qualify as "post 2023 earnings." (assuming you didn't exceed their 12/31/23 value).