JimGant

11 hours ago, Metapod said:

Yes, it absolutely is a taxable event under the new system. 

Presumably that US bank account from which your Wise transfer came from had funds in it pre 1 Jan 2024. And maybe a deposit on 1 Jan 2024 of a private pension, and a deposit of a government pension. So, from which part of this fungible pot of money did your Wise remittance come from?

Until they come out and mandate Fifo or Lifo (first in first out, last in last out) -- which they probably won't -- it's up to you. And since GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles) defines fifo and lifo relative to inventories, not remittances -- I'd say you're free to pick and choose what tranche of your bank account funded your Wise transfer. So, if you had sufficient pre-2024 funds in your bank account, or your government pension was large enough, or a combination of the two -- there you have it, as these are non assessable income remittances. With no instructions to the contrary, you can pick and choose the non assessable tranches of your bank account. In this example, you would not pick the private pension tranche, as this is assessable income. Just keep good records, particularly showing the tranches you choose had enough funds to cover your remittance.

Anyway, this is my guess. All part of what's going to necessarily be a self-assessment drill.

13 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

A friend did his report recently online...

Can you provide further details on this, like the online link? Thanx.

7 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

If you do, then international transfers ( by some means ) will have to be checked to ensure that tax has been paid, the transfer is tax exempt, or tax has / will be paid in the Country that it has been remitted to.

Wrong. CRS reporting is for showing income earned abroad by a resident of a CRS reporting country. Then, the relevant tax authorities can assess taxes. What happens to that taxable income, in terms of if, when, and where transferred -- is irrelevant (except in weird cases, like Thailand). And, more importantly, if all income streams remitted between countries would somehow be scrutinized for taxability -- Foreign Direct Investment, among other items, would come to a screeching halt. Not going to happen.

So, CRS will certainly help determine income being earned abroad by Thai tax residents. And once the remitted proviso is done away with -- Thailand stands to reap some nice tax revenues. But, until then, the remittance proviso neuters CRS reporting.

I believe it will, especially for international money transfers.

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

No idea why you quoted me and then came out with the above.

 

I never said that CrS or FATCA track international money transfers.

 

You implied that CRS data was now going to allow determination of foreign income earned by Thai tax residents. That's nice --except because of Thailand's remittance qualification, and because CRS -- and FATCA -- reporting doesn't include remittance information, that ain't going to happen.

Here's a quote from you: "I believe it [CRS] will, especially for international money transfers." My point: international money transfers aren't a data element of CRS reporting.

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State "

If I understand this correctly  not only SSI pensions but all pensions.  

Am I correct in this? 

No.  It's all spelled out in the Technical Explanation:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thaitech.pdf

Quote

The treatment of social security benefits is dealt with in paragraph 2. This paragraph
provides that, notwithstanding the provision of paragraph 1 under which private pensions are taxable exclusively in the State of residence of the beneficial owner, payments made by one of the Contracting States as a social security benefit or similar public pension to a resident of the other Contracting State or to a citizen of the United States will be taxable only in the Contracting State making the payment.

Quote

Paragraph 1 provides that private pensions and other similar remuneration [for example, IRAs] paid in consideration of past employment are generally taxable only in the residence State of the recipient.

Article 21 is where you'll find that government pensions are taxable only by the country paying these pensions. And the TE says state and local pensions are included, not just Federal.

Has anybody done their one year report by mail? If so, can you describe the procedure -- and did you need to provide a return envelope to get your "due next year" reminder, which, I guess, doubles as a receipt of report, to staple in your passport? Thanx.

12 hours ago, Guavaman said:

It appears that there is no reference in the Thai Tax Code that states that any type of income is non-assessable. If anyone can find such a reference, please inform us.

Not too hard to decipher. If you can't find your particular income as assessable in the Thai tax code, then, by default, it is NOT assessable income. And need not be reported on your Thai tax return.

Income mentioned in DTAs as taxable "only in the country of residency," and you're a resident of Thailand, ipso facto, that's assessable income for Thai purposes. Other income, like rents, has a "may be taxed by country of residency," meaning, for US types, the income from your rental in the US is primarily taxed by the US; but Thailand can also tax it secondarily, but has to grant a credit for the US taxes, i.e., the country of primary taxation rights. Currently, there is no line item on Thai tax returns to list credits -- but they say they are working on it. Stay tuned.

27 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I think thou, with the updated tax situation, we all are wondering if LTR visa holder (whose local sourced Thai income is less than 120,000 THB) will be required to file a return if their foreign sourced income is > 120,000 THB, even if not taxable per Royal Decree.

If you remitt it in a later year than earned, Royal Decree says, essentially, that it is NOT Assessable Income. And the RD says, you don't have to file a tax return if you have no Assessable Income, or your Assessable Income is below 120000, like if you had some Thai bank interest. Ergo, no requirement to file a Thai tax return. IMO

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

Are you sure? I have been cautious and kept seasoning my income, but I am not certain seasoning is required. As per RD 743.

Another source says the same thing:

Quote

The exemption applies to income of the previous tax year arising from a post or business carried on abroad or arising from assets located abroad , that has been brought into Thailand.

https://www.hlbthai.com/tax-benefits-for-long-term-resident-ltr-visa-holders/

But, yeah, I've seen other comments to the contrary. But, all my remittances are non assessable (govt pensions, social security) -- or in one small situation, definitely remitted in a later year -- so I'm really not on top of this.

6 hours ago, Guavaman said:

The only way to answer this question is for a Thai RD tax assessor to consider your submission of a tax filing to determine whether or not you have assessable income.

I doubt an RD clerk will have the time or gumption to spend time giving you free tax advice. But more importantly, if foreign income is your concern, no clerk is going to have intimate knowledge of your specific DTA, as he has over 60 to consider. So, you'll be more knowledgeable about your DTA than he will. But, if you're really unsure about what's taxable, and what's not -- I'm sure you'll have a whole host of tax preparers to choose from.

33 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

But as I have the Wealthy Pensioner LTV and my only income comes from outside Thailand,  I bring this in the year after it us earned,  and according to Royal Decree 743 that income is Tax Exempt - my thinking is no.   I doubt the Thai RD want a return where no tax is due (and I doubt there is a form to return as such).

Indeed. In effect, we've been grandfathered under the old rule, namely: Bring your assessable income into Thailand in the year, or years, after it is earned, and it is then not taxable. So, if that is what you have been doing, nothing has changed for you.

Quote

Foreigners granted the LTR Visa in the categories of “Wealth Global Citizen”, “Wealthy Pensioner”, and “Work from Thailand Professional” will be exempted from paying personal income tax on their assessable income derived in the previous tax year from their work or business conducted abroad or from their properties situated abroad which have been brought into Thailand.

https://www.legal500.com/developments/press-releases/income-tax-for-foreigners-with-and-without-long-term-resident-visa/

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If a taxpayer is absolutely certain that some of their income is not assessable, they may not want to declare it on their Thai tax return.  Alternatively they may wish to ask the RD

Oh, come on, Mike. It's not that hard to determine what needs to be reported to RD. It's all determinable by a detailed explanation of your DTA, like with the US Technical Explanation. And, if assessable under the DTA, what about when remitted -- how hard is that? So, with such certainty, why would I want to go to RD and ask: "Sir, here is my spreadsheet on my worldwide income, with what I assume is taxable by Thailand. Do you concur?" What do you see as areas of disagreement? I just see an RD agent with caged eyeballs.

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

If you only remit income that is 20,000% locked up in a DTA and is considered to be non assessable, and is only taxable in the UK, US, Aus or wherever.

 

Does that person need to file a Thai tax return ?

No. Mainly because Thai RD is not interested in income that isn't subject to taxation, 'cause there's no profit there, and the unnecessary filing of such a tax return has its own costs in manpower and trees. Practically, because a Thai tax return has no line items in which to place income not subject to taxation, due to nature of income (e.g., per diem); that it's excluded by DTA; that it's not remitted. Most of us can cull what's assessable and what's not. Otherwise, hire  a Thai tax professional, of which, I'm sure, they'll be a lot more of soonest.

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

What I wrote was that I declared everything, assessible and not assessible, I left it up to the RD to decide what they wanted to enter into their (Thai) online system although, my bottom line agreed with their number, as I also said.

 

What my statement means is that you have no proof of what you wrote, "Thai RD is NOT interested in non assessable income (again, income exempted by treaty). Until you do, what I wrote remains true, "I think that is an opinion rather than fact".

Ok, you win. If I have to file a Thai tax return, I'll include all my Air Force pensions, Social Security, and other income exempted by treaty. Now, where on the form should I put this? And after I do, where on the form would I back it out, since it's not taxable income -- which the RD would know, and wonder what kind of jerk would include it in the first place....

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I think that is an opinion rather than fact. Unless the Thai RD is made aware of the nature of the income, it does not know whether it is assessible or not.

What I said:

Quote

Thai RD is NOT interested in non assessable income (again, income exempted by treaty, like gov't pensions for most OECD countries -- or, again, any income not remitted). Thus, if you have enough assessable income requiring you to file a Thai tax return, you would NOT include line items of non assessable income.

Does your statement mean that RD should be shown all your income in order for them to determine its assessability (taxability would be a better term)? I think you do, due to an earlier post by you (which I'll try and locate), where you state that you and the RD clerk go over all your income to determine what should be filed, and what shouldn't. I maintain that that is a step not needed, as most of us can determine whether our foreign income is subject to Thai taxation, or not. But, I guess you don't agree, which, of course, is your right.

53 minutes ago, stat said:

While I agree that there is a 50% percent chance (just my gut feeling) that TH will not tax 2024 remittances

How about 100% chance? If they, or the banks, or whoever, find it impossible to parse out income remittance from capital remittances, you really think they're going to tax my 100% capital remittance to buy a condo?

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

UK State pension on the other hand is not covered by a DTA so it is assessable income in Thailand yet Government or Civil Service pensions are not!

 

Yes, gov't pensions (paid for services of past gov't employment) of most OECD countries are taxable exclusively by the country paying them. But for some countries, at least for Norway, this is not true. Norway requires (via DTA) its expats in Thailand to have their gov't pensions primarily taxable by Thailand -- thus those pensions remitted to Thailand are assessable income for Thai tax purposes. But this is not a simple credit to Norway for taxes paid to Thailand -- this is, if you have all your Norwegian pension earnings taxed by Thailand, and can show a tax return proving it -- a complete nullification of your Norway tax obligation on same pension payments. Thus, pay Thailand 1000 baht in taxes, and get relief from a Norwegian tax of 10000 baht equivalency (exaggeration, but you get the idea).

Years ago, when I read this info on this forum, was the interesting part, where Norwegian expats were kicking and screaming to, first, be able to get Thai TINs -- then to declare their Norwegian pensions as taxable by the Thais. The Thai RD was throwing them out the door, saying, "We don't tax foreign pensions."

Seriously. But, things did change, and if you wanted Thailand to tax your pension, I guess someone with authority decided, 'why not collect it.'

Anyway, I mention this to emphasize that everyone should become familiar with their DTA with Thailand, as the new remittance rules (if implemented) will re-define assessable foreign source income.

55 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Annuities are separately addressed in Article 20 Paragraph 3.

Yes. And they're taxable only in the contracting state of residency. What don't you understand?

Quote

Under paragraph 3, annuities that are derived and beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State are taxable only in that State.

As I recall, you, for some reason, got hung up on the word "derived." Are you still maintaining that "derived" somehow means taxable in the contracting state where paid?