JimGant

On 3/10/2024 at 8:37 AM, fceligoj said:

Too many cheats.  Every American is required to report on their Form 1040 if they have ANY FOREIGN INVESTMENTS, by ticking the "FATCA" block, even it is less then $10,000 USD.  Since so many don't, the US IRS is forcing foreign banks to police those accounts and report to IRS.  This does translate into unprofitable costs to the banks.

Under FATCA, banks are only required to report on "US persons" with $50,000 or more in their account(s) at the end of the year. Thus, I would say, very few "US persons" are being reported to Treasury Dept. And now with CRS coming to Thailand, Thai banks will no longer just have FATCA to curse for burdensome reporting requirements.

On 3/11/2024 at 5:24 PM, Mike Lister said:

On 3/11/2024 at 2:26 PM, hcvc said:

A number of online sources advocated bringing funds into Thailand before December 31, 2023 to lessen the impact from Thai tax revisions taking effect on January 1, 2024. Which I did.

 

I now worry that remitting money in 2023 may have subjected me to a tax liability under previously existing Thai tax rules. Rules that state income is assessable (taxable) if brought into Thailand in the same calendar year that the income is received. Guessing I may have an obligation to file a Thai 2023 tax return by March 31, 2024.

 

Online sources are now claiming there is no Thai tax obligation on foreign sourced funds held prior to January 1^st 2024.

 

This is all very taxing.

 

Losnsol?

 

No, they're wrong. Foreign sourced income earned in 2023, and remitted to Thailand in 2023, are assessable. Had you waited until this year, or later, to remit, then, yes, it would then not be assessable.

On 3/7/2024 at 12:51 PM, smedly said:

it would be unwise to offer loans that people cannot pay, something similar happened in the US and we all know what happened 

Please refresh my memory. When was this, and what dire consequences happened?

Here's the problem. This is a quote from you, from the Swiss post that was taken down.

Quote

"Finally, any income that is taxed in the home country, can use that tax to OFFSET any potential Tax in Thailand. IF the level of tax in the home country is the same or higher than in Thailand, no further tax will be due here, if it lower, Thai tax MAY be due."

In the beginning, we heard, "If you have a DTA, and you pay home country taxes, you won't owe taxes in Thailand." This seemed to be the RD way of not having to deal with the specifics of individual DTAs, but just avoid double taxation by acknowledging that you paid taxes to your home country. End of discussion. No need to file a Thai tax return.

And this may be the way it will be going forward -- wave a home country tax return (regardless of how much paid, if any, in home country taxes) in the faces of Thai RD, and thus have no Thai tax obligation.

But this is absurd, if Thailand really wants to utilize all their DTAs to collect taxes that they have primary taxation authority over.

Using my 401a as an example. Thailand, per DTA, has primary taxation authority on my remitted 401a. Thus, they get to keep every baht of taxes collected from this income -- it is NOT offset by any tax credit from my US taxes -- but the US does have to accept a tax credit from Thailand.  So, even if the Thai taxes owed on this income is, say, $100 -- and the taxes on the same income paid to the US is $500 -- Thailand at least gets to keep $100 in taxes -- and the US only nets $400 in taxes, after subtracting out the Thai tax credit of $100. For me, the US taxpayer, my total tax bill between the two countries is still $500. So, no big deal that Thailand is finally utilizing the provisions of the DTA. But a big deal for them, if they don't......

Bottom line: I don't understand why Thailand would just say, always use your home country's taxes as a tax credit against Thai taxes -- and, in most cases, don't owe anything to Thailand. Why not use their primary taxation authority to issue, not accept, tax credits -- and at least collect the taxes they're owed? And, for Yanks, this would have little, if any affect, on the total tax bill between countries.

Anyway, I'm sure we'll hear more about the affects of DTAs on future Thai tax matters. If not, the Thais will be losing out on tax revenues -- when it wouldn't take much to just clarify how self-assessment vis-a-via one's DTA with Thailand should apply.

Out of curiosity, why do you need a 1099? I guess if you're not getting any mail, you didn't get the "here are your new benefits" letter from the SSA at the beginning of the year (which has all the same info as a 1099). But, if you have no withholding, you certainly can figure out what the SSA paid you in 2023, by looking at your bank statement where your SS check is deposited...

Anyway, no 1099s need be filed with electronic filing; and hardcopy by mail filing only requires a 1099 if there is withholding tax involved.

1 hour ago, placnx said:

So I would like to know whether a retired US citizen (paying US taxes) can get a credit on Thai taxes on money brought into Thailand under terms of the tax treaty. If so, what kind of income is eligible for credit on the Thai tax return? In my case all income is taxable dividends and interest, not pensions, IRAs, or 401Ks. Thanks.

If somehow all the money you wire to Thailand can strictly be identified as dividends and interest -- paid after Jan 1, 2024 -- then, yes, Thailand has first taxation dibs. But whatever Thai taxes you pay can be used as a tax credit against your US taxes (per the DTA rules and Form 8833 rules). [US gets to tax it due to the saving clause, which allows taxation of virtually all worldwide income, regardless of what any DTA says.]

But are you filtering these dividends and interest through a bank account that existed pre 2024? And if so, the balance that existed Dec 31, 2023 is your forever never assessable amount of money that can be remitted to Thailand. This, too, for your IRA balance on 31 Dec, as this was also income paid pre 31 Dec -- that it was tax deferred doesn't enter into the equation for remitted money to Thailand.

We're not really playing fast and lose with the fungibility of money concept. Accounting rules like FIFO and LIFO don't apply to remittances, but to inventories. So the co-mingling of pre and post 2024 monies in a bank account aren't addressed in worldwide accounting concepts when it comes to remittances. And Thailand probably won't become a unique player in defining which end of the money pot remittances come from first. So, for now, you're on solid ground to self-designate that your wire remittances to Thailand are FIFO. Hey, you take advantage of every angle that doesn't bend any existing rule. Besides, the chance that Thai RD will want to discuss any of this with you is practically nil -- and if they do, you're on solid ground.

So, what was your financial bottom line on 31 Dec 2023? Consider this amount as completely exempt from any future Thai taxes, to be added to any amounts, like gov't pensions and social security, also exempt, per DTA.

Remember this nugget, from page one of the 232 treatise on the new tax:

Quote

"The program will begin January 1, 2024 and apply only to tax residents in Thailand meaning tourists and short term workers will be exempt. Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand."

Thai Enquirer

The OP is paying US tax on this income in question. Early in the game, per the above quote, it appeared Thai RD didn't want to waste resources by fine toothing every DTA on which country gets primary taxing authority, then has to issue a credit, blah blah. Instead, if you can wave a DTA and a tax return from home country at RD, then, no taxes owed to Thailand. Simple, sensible approach. Haven't heard anything more on whether or not this approach is still viable -- or never was ever viable.

But, obviously, a question whose answer would help the OP -- and would certainly put to rest questions by others paying home country taxes and wondering about having to file a Thai tax return. Maybe we haven't heard more about this because it was too simplistic in the early goings-on of this new tax drill..... But, a reaffirmation sure would go a long ways, particularly for Yanks, who normally always file a tax return, even if no taxes owed due to standard deduction being greater than gross income.

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

my US Social Security being deposited in my US bank account (with other funds), can then be wired (same exact amount) to my Thai bank and qualify as non-assessable?

The question of co-mingled funds being parsed between savings and assessable income is a reoccurring question here. But, I really don't think you'll be grilled by RD on this. And with adequate records, like sending your social security to Thailand in the exact amount received in your US bank, would be nice, but probably overkill. That you can keep adequate records that remitted amounts fall into the non assessable category, either by virtue of DTA or being from a pre 2024 bank account, should cover your six. But, again, just be comfortable with your self-assessment; the chance of being audited by RD, for either not filing, or for filing a questionable return, is virtually nil, as they don't have, and will not have, the manpower to conduct audits where the cost/benefit analysis is a joke.

Am I the only one confused here?

12 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Do I understand correctly that you are working remotely for a US-based company?

Thanks, Sheryl, for that question. Its answer will, hopefully, stop my head scratching as to the OP's real question....

4 hours ago, FarangRimPing said:

Instead, I had a tax credit which I could use in future years, but this had to be applied to foreign income, not US income.

Just to put US retirees at ease, if the DTA says Thailand has first/exclusive taxation rights on US income remitted to Thailand, then you have an "out" to the Tax Code, where it says credits are only against taxes paid on Thai income. Nope. If that remitted income is subject to the DTA, for the purposes of eliminating double taxation, then that US income taxed by Thailand will be treated as if it were Thai, not US, income. Thus, any credits banked (under Form 1116) are applicable to future US remitted income, since such remittances are treated the same as Thai income. Form 8833 applies, which points out how the DTA trumps the US Tax Code.

3 hours ago, ravip said:

The amount of 'fees' that banks charge are ridiculous! Very soon banking might become so expensive, only the rich might be able to afford it.

Depends on the bank, I guess. My banks' credit cards, Cap One, BofAmerica, and USAA, charge no fees; use the network (Visa) FX rate, which approximates the excellent Interbank Exchange Rate (what WISE gives); and give me a 1.5% reward credit. Can't beat that (well, USAA used to be 2.5%).

Years ago on this forum DCC was discussed heavily, pointing out which merchants automatically used it (while the networks, visa, mc, require the merchant to divulge whether DCC was being used, or not). And the added cost, around 3%, can add up (with both the merchant and the bank, who defines the FX rate to reach a profitable spread from what he pays Visa, splitting the profit). We got to the point, with Home Pro, that we had to tell the checkout gal to hit "button 2", as "button 1" was the DCC rate.

Haven't used Home Pro in awhile, but recently Bangkok Hospital has, on several occasions, asked, "Dollars or baht?" They'd even print out, at request, a comparison of the two rates -- and 3% seems to still be the rip off rate. (Oh, baht is the correct answer.)

Don't know if DCC has entered the QR world yet, as I refuse to learn how to pay for something on my phone, while trying to see tiny numbers and keys -- while my plastic credit card is still very functional, thank you very much. (Had to get that rant in -- new technology isn't all that swell for old farts.)

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

"that everything that arrives as money in Thailand will be taxed unless you can prove that you have already paid your taxes". Once again, that is simply not true, but thanks to the Swiss Ambassador and the video, members who have heard that said will now have to decide for themselves, unfortunately, because that will cost them money unnecessarily in tax advice.  

Bingo! A little common sense would show that all arriving monies will be considered "income," and maybe have withholding taxes -- is completely bonkers. You think the Thais are stupid enough to shoot FDI in the foot (rhetorical question). Or that banks will now be surrogate RD agents to address all incoming wires......... And I thought the Swiss were keen on financial matters......

20 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Sometimes you need to read between the lines - use your intuition...

Another cavalier comment. By the way, what's your nationality? I've kind of got it narrowed down....

On 2/26/2024 at 4:17 PM, zhounan said:

What do you think is the reason why many Thai girls choose tomboy? Tired of men, afraid of getting pregnant or something else?

Lemme see. If I had the choice between an attractive, soft, curvy, nice smelling creature -- and a hairy, booze breathed neanderthal-like body -- what would I do?

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

The problem is that retirees are often living off capital gains income, and Thai tax rates for capital gains are generally higher than US tax rates. So, US nationals may indeed owe tax to Thailand, if they file a return

Excellent point. If Thai taxes exceed US taxes, then, yes, your total tax bill will equate to the higher of whichever country's tax bill is higher. Here's the language from the DTA:

Quote

Except as otherwise provided in this Convention, each Contracting State may tax gains from the
alienation of property in accordance with the provisions of its domestic law.

This is unclear as to which country has "primary" taxation authority. But it doesn't matter when it comes to your total tax bill. If my US cap gain tax is $1000, and my Thai tax is $1200, if I have to pay full fare to the US, but give that $1000 as a credit against the Thai tax bill of $1200 -- then I end up paying the US $1000, and Thailand $200. Total bill: $1200. Reverse that, paying Thailand full fare of $1200, but using $1000 of that as a credit to cancel out my US tax bill -- again, total bill between the two countries is $1200.

But, point well taken -- Yanks may now have situations where having to file Thai taxes makes total tax bill between both countries higher than just paying US taxes.

3 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

So many other sectors of the economy are still hurt from the Prayuth Decimation.

Prayuth wasn't all that bad. Granted, many won't forgive his illegitimate rise to power. So be it. But his intentions were honorable; so too his hard work; and his legacy will probably be deemed "very acceptable", except Covid's curse prevented many of his good intentions from flowering.

Good news and good reports are nice to hear; sadly, we have to suffer the naysayers . Thailand's certainly on the mend, but many miles to go. Sadly, we can't have a parallel gov't, like that of Yingluck, to match performances, and good intentions, with that of Prayut. I think many critics of Prayuth's governing would then be forced to shut up.

On 2/28/2024 at 11:45 AM, CartagenaWarlock said:

Nothing new, really. If the pension is specifically mentioned, in the double-taxation strategy, it is not taxed.

Not true for the US-Thai tax treaty. Yes, gov't pensions and social security are specifically restricted to taxation only by the paying country. However, private pensions, annuities, and IRAs *are* mentioned as being exclusively taxable by country of residence, i.e., Thailand. (But the US still maintains taxation rights on these payments, per the "saving clause.")

But, yes, other DTAs are less specific. The UK one makes no mention of private pensions

I have to agree with Mike on this one, but mainly as it impacts Thai citizens/fat cats, rather than we expats. Heretofore, the fat cat could just wait until a later year to bring in his foreign earnings to escape taxation. But that loophole appears to be closed. Certainly the powers-that-be aren't now going to allow fat cats to take extended vacations that negate their tax residency -- to use that year to remit all their overseas income..... But, wait -- maybe there's some interpretation that says, if no tax return is required to be filed for a year in which you weren't a tax resident, then no taxes on remittances received in that tax year. Yeah, doesn't pass the sniff test -- but maybe a deliberate "out" to accommodate the fat cats, who certainly would of had a say in all of this.

But, who cares -- no extended vacations on my horizon. Plus, Yanks aren't affected by any of this (yes, I know -- you Old World folks get tired of hearing this).

5 hours ago, mudcat said:

Does my wife have any tax liability for these funds?  

No. You've already met any tax obligations. Money gifted to your wife in the US is exempt from gift taxation. Gift to wife in Thailand is below the 20m threshold.

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

I don't think the USA is going to give me a tax credit for paying Thai income taxes on my US income. What do you think?

I don't see any of your scenarios that would require you to file a Thai tax return and pay Thai taxes: If income is not remitted, it's not assessable. If monies from pre 2024 are remitted, they're not assessable. If income remitted, otherwise assessable but remitted in a year when you're not a tax resident -- not assessable. Thus, no situations where you're paying Thai taxes, and thus no situations requiring a tax credit of Thai taxes against US taxes.

But, your question is a good one for future use, i.e., when you pay Thai taxes on US income because the DTA says that's the way it is. Normally, under US Tax Code, tax credits against your US tax return are for taxes paid only on foreign income. But, there's an exception for taxes paid under treaty (DTA) situations, such as paying taxes to Thailand on US income that they have primary taxation rights on. As such, you DO get a tax credit against your US tax return, requiring you to file a Form 8833. But, all the scenarios you indicate aren't yet in that situation.

Bottom line, as a Yank -- all this gobbly gook about the new tax situation doesn't really affect us, as our total tax bill, between the two countries, will, in most scenarios, be the same, with maybe Thailand finally getting more taxes, and the US less, as Thailand finally employs the language of the US-Thai DTA to their benefit.

22 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Have you considered the possibility that your bank manager merely has a nervous twitch and was not in fact suggesting anything illegal and in reality, didn't know?

Just quoting a couple of Thai legal sites that -- hopefully -- know more than I do. Makes no difference on the direction I've given my wife. She'll be in no jeopardy as administrator of my estate -- and sole beneficiary. As administrator appointed in my Will, she needs no court to bless that appointment:

Quote

Section 1711. Administrators of Estate

The administrators of an estate shall include persons appointed by will or by order of the Court.

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Of course, if there's pragmatic way around that and all parties are happy, why not. It's the same with filing a tax return when no tax is due, why even bother. And then there's all those other silly laws that exist, goodness me, there's so many of them and they can be such an inconvenience at times, speeding, running a red light,

Ah, I see. Running a red light is in the same category as not filing taxes when no taxes are due. Get a grip, man.