JimGant

3 hours ago, ikke1959 said:

In Buddhism it is not allowed to take someones life..

 What's that have to do with a procedure to eliminate unwanted protoplasm?

5 hours ago, jeffandgop said:

Does Thailand have a claim for taxation on the pension when I remit funds from my U.S. bank to my Thailand bank? (Putting aside my U.S. bank receives both Social Security AND pension payments into the same account, the RD would have no way of knowing what amount of the remittance derives from either social security and/or pension......)

The DTA says Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on your private pension (but the US has secondary rights, due to the saving clause that allows the US to override all aspects of DTA language). So, if your private pension exceeds all those allowances, deductions, 150k freebies offered in a Thai tax return -- then, yeah, you have Thai taxable income, and thus need to file a Thai tax return. But you get a credit for these Thai taxes against your US tax bill; but, as you say, you owe no US taxes. Well, then, the credit is worthless (well, not quite -- you could file an extensive Form 1116, which would allow a carry-over of this credit, should you have future US taxable income.... a lot of work if your future shows no US taxation). Anyway, this is a case where having to pay Thai taxes, and no US taxes -- means you're now in a situation of owing someone taxes (but, without exploring various math scenarios, I really think if you owe no US taxes, because the standard deduction exceeds your adjusted gross income, then you most likely won't meet the Thai taxable income threshold either).

As far as someone parsing your Social Security remittances apart from your private pension remittances -- of course this won't, and can't happen -- fungibility of money remittances is a wonderful thing. As said a monotonous amount of time on these threads -- it will all be self-assessment. Keep good records; report what looks correct to you; and give yourself the benefit of the doubt, particularly if you can support a good argument, should it (unlikely) ever come to that.

[I give myself a tax credit for Bangkok Bank withheld taxes on my US return. Rules say, if I can get this withholding refunded, I can't get the credit. My excuse, should I ever get a letter audit from the IRS, is that I read on an expat forum that I can't get a tax refund without a TIN; and I can't get a TIN without a work permit. This would be my excuse if ever audited (weak as it may be). Integrity? No tax evasion? Nope -- Thailand keeps the taxes, and the US gives a credit, vice US gets the taxes, and Thailand has to refund their withholding taxes to me. Thus, taxes working where I live.]

4 hours ago, retarius said:

May I ask a question that has been troubling me and might have been clarified at the event. I have read that if you have statements for bank accounts in the US that show say $50,000K on 31/12/23, can you bring this amount here tax free in 2024. Is this true after the clarification at the meeting? 

Secondly, does the money have to come from the same bank account? Or can it come from a different bank account? And can it come later than 2024 ie say in 2025.

List all your bank and IRA/401k balances as of 12/31/2023. This is the amount you can remit to Thailand that will be non assessable, i.e., not reportable, on a Thai tax return -- for ever and ever going forward into 2024 and beyond. Just keep good records, like, say, you open a new bank account in 2024, and fill it with pre 2024 funds, plus you use it for direct deposits of your gov't pensions, and Social Security payments (exempt by DTA). Thus, this new bank account contains only money that is not reportable on a Thai tax return. And this should be the source of your Wise or SWIFT transfers.

I mention including your 12/31/23 IRA/401k balance, because of the uniqueness of Thailand's remittance rule, plus the exemption for pre 2024 income. Thus, Thailand says income earned pre 2024 is exempt from their new remittance rule. But money in an IRA pre 2024 has also been earned -- it's just tax deferred until it is payed out. Thus, I would be completely in my rights to tell Thai RD that my IRA funds pre 2024 are not reportable, as they were earned pre 2024. That it's taxable in a later year, when withdrawn -- is neither here nor there (until Thailand drops the remittance malarkey and just looks at taxable worldwide income).

If you really needed hand holding, which you won't with the professional approach of BoI, Star Visa in CM is on the BoI list of agents. But, you still have to go to Bangkok for the final inkings -- they can't do that for you. Actually, my trip, as I hate traveling, was a surprise joy, as I treated myself to everything five star -- hotel, limo to and from airport, limo to Boi, surf and turf dinners, young... nevermind.  But, hopefully the internet will be available for the one year report -- mail would be an ok backup. Star Visa, however, says they can do that report for you, if needed. Which, it probably won't be.

47 minutes ago, OJAS said:

On the subject of DTA's, the following disturbing comment you've recently made in the original thread now running to 255 pages would IMHO be worth repeating here:

 

"Word reaches me from a friend who attended a Mazars briefing at a Embassy in Bangkok this week that Thailand is currently renegotiating several DTA's. allegedly."

 Well, DTAs can be amended with "protocols." Hopefully, one such protocol might be re the UK-Thai DTA, and will finally address private pensions, which the current DTA is silent on. Other protocols might just update DTAs that have grown long in the tooth, and thus have led to misunderstandings. Can't really envision a scenario where an updated DTA would be detrimental to me.... But, who knows...

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I do not have a 'permanent home' in Thailand - I do have one in Australia. 

That's nice. But if you're in Thailand for 180 days or more -- you're a resident for tax purposes. That you don't have a residence status that allows you to get a Thai passport makes no difference to the taxation aspect.

Quote

I am not and probably never will be a resident of Thailand and under the DTA I will pay no income taxes to Thailand - unless I earn income in Thailand.  

Again, if you're here for 180 or more days, you're subject to the DTA and Thai taxation. A quick glance at the OZ-Thai DTA shows a carbon copy of most English speaking countries' DTAs, all based on OECD and UN Model tax treaties. For private pensions:

Quote

1. Subject to the provisions of Article 19, pensions and annuities paid to a resident of one of the Contracting States shall be taxable only in that State. [Article 19 is where gov't pensions are only taxable by the paying country.]

Key to the above, the the phrase: "shall be taxable ONLY in that State." This means exclusive taxation rights. As pointed out by an OZ tax accountant somewhere in all these threads, yes, this means Oz has no taxation rights on these private pensions, only Thailand. That they don't exercise this right -- because it's not remitted -- apparently doesn't negate the exclusivity. And OZ apparently doesn't have something like the saving clause found in the US DTA, which trumps the exclusivity, and allows taxation by the US, in spite of what's declared in the DTA.

A good deal, I guess -- if Thai taxation rates are lower than Aussie rates of taxation.

2 hours ago, smedly said:

If I start to pay tax in Thailand what do I get in return ?

For those of us who will break even, because any increase in Thai taxes will be an equal decrease (through credits) in our home country taxes (the US, for example) -- then I certainly have no problem with my taxes now transferring to Thailand. Less money for infrastructure improvements in the US, that I'll never see -- and more money for Block 70 F-16's, to ward off the hoards of Burmese Mig-29's and SU-30's (well, ok, maybe mo' betta going to increased welfare benefits).

40 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Thus I don't know, if there is any penalty for not filing a tax return for those who have income over 120k but not enough to pay tax. I don't think so and this regulation seems not to be enforced. AFAIK there are only penalties for not filing tax returns and paying tax on income over the threshold and allowances.

No penalties for not filing if no tax owed. Only if filing late, and taxes are owed. Then, it's a fine equivalent to taxes owed, or twice taxes owed (I forgot what drives the difference).

47 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The default position is that if those pension payments are remitted to Thailand, they are assessable income.

Ok. So then does Thailand have exclusive taxation rights -- thus the UK can't tax these private and State pensions? Or does Thailand have primary taxation rights, but the UK can also tax, but has to give a credit for Thai taxes? Or in reverse -- the UK has primary taxation rights? Without any clarity in the DTA, we're in a double taxation quandary. Dunno. Hope it all sorts out for the Brits. But, since Yorktown, I won't lose too much sleep.

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

My US SSc is taxable solely in the US whilst my UK State is taxable in the UK, because I have other income that arises there.

I said, "unless they're gov't pensions."

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

My experience is that tax is due in the country where the income arises, this is true of both my UK and US pensions.

Unless you don't live in that country, then most DTAs have the country of residence with exclusive or primary taxation rights, unless they're gov't pensions. But you knew that....

2 hours ago, BenStark said:

So where do i pay tax on my pension

Certainly not to Thailand, if not remitted. This, however, may change, if and when they figure out that the remittance gimmick is still costing them lost tax revenues.

On 1/30/2024 at 6:04 PM, ikke1959 said:

On 1/30/2024 at 2:38 PM, BenStark said:

Below is what my Embassy sent me today.

 

If you live in Thailand for more than 180 days a year, you will be considered a Thai tax resident. In that case you must indicate all foreign income that you bring in to Thailand. If the taxes that have already been paid in Belgium are not sufficient according to Thai tax legislation, you may have to pay an extra tax in Thailand.

If that is true, the tax department will refund the paid tax in Belgium if it is more than you had to pay in Thailand?? As double taxes in tyhe whole world are not done.

Here's a quote from the Belgium-Thai DTA re non government pensions:

Quote

pensions or other remuneration for past employment arising in a Contracting State and paid to a resident of the other Contracting State may be taxed in the first - mentioned State.

Most DTAs have the country of residency as the primary, or even exclusive, taxing country. Belgium, however, gets first taxation rights on private pensions paid in Belgium, and Thailand gets secondary taxation authority. This is indicated by the language "may be taxed" which is OECD Model tax language to indicate taxation may occur in both countries, but the "may be taxed" country has first dibs. (To indicate exclusive taxation rights, where only one country can tax, the language is "may only be taxed.")

Thus, the recent statement from the Belgium embassy is consistent with the DTA: Belgium has first taxation rights, but Thailand can also tax. But because Thailand is the secondary taxing authority, it has to grant a credit for Belgium taxes paid. Therefore, if those Belgium taxes are more than the Thai taxes, no taxes owed to Thailand. If less, then you still pay full fare to Belgium, but you also pay Thailand a tax equal to the amount that exceeds the credit. If it's obvious you won't owe Thailand any taxes after the credit, makes you want to not file a tax return with Thailand. And if you don't owe taxes, no penalty, no jail time. Hmmmm.

33 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Because it is until it isn't, the default is that it's assessible income. You can't have a situation where only income that's defined in the DTA is accepted as assessible and everything else is excluded because it isn't defined.

Why not?

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

a DTA between any two countries is all inclusive of every type of consideration and that anything that is not included, is non-taxable, by default.

..... or, what -- that everything that is not included is taxable by the country of residence?

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You can't have a situation where only income that's defined in the DTA is accepted as assessible and everything else is excluded because it isn't defined.

BS

50 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Claiming that assessable income is not defined or known is equally as bizarre

As I posted somewhere in this mess of threads, for Brits, their DTA does NOT define assessable income when it comes to private/State pensions. As such, how is one to know that his Brit private pension is assessable income for Thai tax purposes?

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Also, why would you think that the RD have never taxed private pensions in Thailand, I don't think that's a valid assumption at all, it's one of the reasons DTA's exist? 

 DTA's address income, not income remitted. Thus, Thai RD gives credit that foreigners have some brain power to claim remitted income is from last year. Whether it is or not, is neither here nor there, as RD doesn't have the resources to call people in for questioning. And for those with direct deposits into Thailand of their pensions? You'd think that would be easy pickings for RD. But apparently not, as they didn't waste resources hitting all the banks to see if Joe Farang's direct deposit was from Boeing (taxable) or Uncle Sam (not taxable).

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Why would you think that UK State and Private Pensions were not automatically assessable income, they are not covered by treaty, nor by any any Thai RD exclusions so what else could they be?

Automatically assessable income? No, discussion of State/private pensions is just not addressed in the Thai-UK treaty. Strange? yes. Intentional? who knows. But does this make it automatically assessable by Thailand? Hmmm.

Maybe the Brits and Thais just couldn't reach an agreement on this. Weird, and not very helpful for tax planning. But you can't just conclude that these State/private pensions are automatically taxable by Thailand, if there's no mention of them in the DTA. Thus, why not make your own decision on whether or not these are assessable incomes for Thai tax purposes -- if not delineated by the DTA, what's to say they're assessable....... Nada, to those of us who think positive.

Plus, there's another consideration here that goes unanswered by the DTA's omission -- does the UK have the right to also tax these pensions? Or are Thailand's tax rights exclusive? The following is from discussion on the OECD Model tax treaty:

Quote

a) Provisions allowing exclusive source taxation of pension payment
Under such a provision, the Article is drafted along the following lines:
Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 19, pensions and other
similar remuneration arising in a Contracting State and paid to a resident of
the other Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be
taxable only in the first-mentioned State.

b) Provisions allowing non-exclusive source taxation of pension payments
Under such a provision, the State of source is given the right to tax pension
payments and the rules of Articles 23 A or 23 B results in that right being either
exclusive or merely prior to that of the State of residence. The Article is then
drafted along the following lines:
Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 19, pensions and other
similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in
consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State.
However such pensions and other similar remuneration may also be taxed in
the other Contracting State if they arise in that State.

 

Without this being addressed in the DTA, there's a potential problem in allowing the UK to tax these pensions should Thailand decide not to (because they weren't remitted). But probably not in reality, as you have no DTA to wave at UK tax collectors to say Thailand has exclusive taxation rights. So, you're going to be taxed by somebody, it would appear. But it sure would be nice, at least for the Brits, to have a DTA that spelled out what's what.

12 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Assessable income is defined above. It will be YOUR responsibility to understand your country's DTA with Thailand and determine what constitutes assessable income. DTA's are available to download and are linked in the OP.

I just read the UK-Thai DTA, and I can finally see where The Cyclist is coming from -- State and private pensions are never addressed in this treaty, unlike gov't pensions, which are exclusively taxable only by the paying country. Thus, a trip to the RD office to get their read on State and private pensions. And I can only imagine they probably weren't aware of the details (or lack thereof) of the DTA; their take was probably, "we've never taxed foreign pensions and we have no guidance to begin now."

Why the UK-Thai DTA doesn't mention private and State pensions is beyond me...... They don't even have an Article, like US treaties have, entitled "Other Income," that addresses income, like gambling winnings, that aren't specifically addressed elsewhere. Here's a Technical Explanation related to that US Article "Other Income":

Quote

Article 24 generally assigns taxing jurisdiction over income not dealt with in the other
articles (Articles 6 through 23) of the Convention to the State of residence of the beneficial
owner of the income and defines the terms necessary to apply the article. However, the other
State may also tax such income if it arises in the other State.

Well, that's not very helpful, as it doesn't define who's the primary taxing country (i.e., who gets to keep all the taxes, but has to issue a tax credit). Presumably, it's the country of residence -- but it's not specific about this.

Thus, as The Cyclist has found out, determining assessable income from one's DTA isn't always that helpful. But, I'm not sure I'd go to my local RD office for their opinion on what is, and isn't, assessable income. I'd just give it my best shot, with the benefit of the doubt going to me -- plus, I'd keep good notes on my thought process, should I ever be queried (which seems doubtful).