JimGant

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Perhaps, because at this moment in time I do not have a TIN ? And it would be pretty stoopid doing what you suggest without one.
 

A  good enough reason, or would you like to open your mouth and let your belly rumble some more ?
 

Not very bright, are you

You really are certifiable. Pistols or swords?

20 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

Sounds like a high-risk situation, depending upon your luck of the draw in which local tax officer "helps" you file, inspects your documents, applies their Thai taxpayer oriented guidelines, interprets DTAs, etc.  An unsafe Thai tax zipline bungee jump!

 

Right. Now can anyone answer my question on being able to mail to TRD my self assessed hard copy tax return -- or, if not, drop it off at the front door of TRD, without any further discussion. Thanx.

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

It will be a PND 91, 2 pages of the UK DTA and copies of my P60's.

Why not just fill in the PND 91with the applicable assessable income, less any stipulated deductions and allowances, and then arrive at tax owed, or not. Then hand it in, or mail it. Why march off to the TRD office with a pile of DTA explanations and numbers, etc? Isn't self-assessment good enough?  Then, if TRD has follow up questions, they'll contact you?

I don't need to file a tax return this year, but if I did, I'd try to file electronically -- but if not available in English, I'd fill out a hard copy and mail it in (is that allowed?). Or is there some requirement that, not going electronically, I have to go to my local TRD and go over my return with an agent, line for line, plus hand in some supporting documentation (what might that be -- I've heard a bank statement -- is that gospel?).

All very confusing, especially if self-assessment is the current guidance. And if filing electronically supports this guidance....

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I already know what they'll say about IRAs. That they confirmed their opinion with TRD.

You're probably right. I just wonder how they phrased their hypothesis on pre 2024 income -- and was the person they consulted at TRD in a decision making position -- and/or was there something in writing presented?

I suppose we'll never know. I guess if a few other tax hand holding organizations came to back up Expatthaitax, I might change my beliefs. Otherwise, I wouldn't have any doubts about not declaring IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return -- as my position is certainly not a fraudulent position, but is certainly a logical argument based on the Por 162 language. I rest my case -- unless further information becomes available.

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I'm not in a position to argue arcane law to the TRD in Thailand. 

Not argue with TRD, but discuss with Expatthaitax why they say you can't put your IRA withdrawals in the pre 2024 income basket. Hopefully, you could do that for free, by signing up for the 15 minute dialogue with them, as advertised by their website. Certainly that could give you a 'warm fuzzy,' -- or not -- about having to declare your IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return. Worth the effort, for sure.

Meanwhile, I'll just go by the following, in digesting any advice from Expatthaitax:

Quote

Tax Advisory Disclaimer

The content provided on this website is intended for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional tax advice. Our materials are designed to offer general guidance on tax-related matters and should not be relied upon for personal tax decisions. Everyone’s tax situation is unique and tax laws are subject to change. We strongly recommend consulting with one of our qualified tax advisors to receive advice tailored to your specific circumstances.

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

If there is no tax to pay, you can be fined 2k a year but, in practice they don't enforce this law on those who have no tax to pay.

So, then -- why would anyone of sound mind waste their time, and shoe leather, to get a TIN -- and to file when no taxes owed, but their assessable income exceeded the 60/120/220k thresholds.....and, then, to subsequently now be on the TRD's radar....? Madness.

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

But don't go file a tax return when not needed, because one was bamboozled by a paranoid poster who ignores RoyalDecrees, ignores Ministerial Directives,  and ignores DTAs. Those documents too need to be considered. 

 

But if one is lazy to read such, then go to one's local RD office, with all one's financial info, with a copy of the relevant Royal Decree, the relevant DTA ( highlighting relevant section governing one's foreign income) and let them decide. Note there are 61 different DTAs, so don't just show up without the DTA and expect the RD official to know the answers off of the top of their head.

 Ah, music to my ears -- in this otherwise ludicrous thread. Thanx, old wise cpu.

23 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Actually that firm in a recent QA session provided a very clear and firm answer about that specific question about whether the value of U.S. retirement accounts at December 31, 2023 is exempt going forward. 

NO!
NO!

N0!

Did they explain how they came to their conclusion? After all, Por 162 exempts all pre 2024 income, whether it's in a bank account, in your mattress, or in your IRA, which prima facie labels all funds in that IRA as pre 2024 income (from wages, and annual reinvestments of income earned within that IRA -- except, of course, post 2023 reinvestments, which can be dealt with by FIFO, as withdrawals occur.)

Anyway, Jingthing, you seem to think Expatthai's NO NO NO is  the all-defining answer to this question. Why  wouldn't you be more curious on how they arrived at their conclusion -- especially since it seems you'll blindly follow their advise, declare your IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return, and (maybe) pay Thai taxes on them?

But, some of us can use our own power of reasoning, interpret Por 162 literally, and submerge our IRA income under Por 162 auspices. Where your logic is coming from, if anywhere, is curious....

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

What is assessable income, everything above 60/120/220k baht

No, assessable income of 59k baht means, if you're single, you're not required to file a tax return. What's with your comprehension problem?

On 1/20/2025 at 1:28 AM, JohnnyBD said:

For example, a US citizen (Thai tax resident) remits 2MM THB to Thailand (all assessable monies), and pays income taxes in Thailand on that 2MM THB. I can't see the IRS just giving a dollar-for-dollar tax credit for taxes paid in Thailand without knowing the make-up of those monies,

If the DTA gives Thailand exclusive, or primary, taxation rights on certain income -- like a private pension -- then to avoid double taxation, the US must absorb a tax credit. And, it could be a one for one credit -- if the US tax on the identical income is at least as much as the Thai tax on same income. If not, the credit could only be up to what the US tax was on that income.

There are some other qualifiers in taking this tax credit, which the instructions to Form 1116 explain (and better explained in Schedule 514). One of these is ratio of Thai taxable income to US taxable income:

Quote

Your foreign tax credit cannot be more than your total U.S. tax liability multiplied by a fraction. The numerator of the fraction is your taxable income from sources outside the United States. The denominator is your total taxable income from U.S. and foreign sources

But, should you be unable to claim the total tax credit due, because of this ratio, then you can carry back one year the credit (filing an amended US tax return), or carry forward for ten years.

Another quirk is that the US Tax Code only allows foreign tax credits on foreign income also taxed by the US. But, of course, a US private pension is not foreign income. Hmmm. To get around that, you have to trump the Tax Code with Tax Treaty language -- and this you do with Form 8833, allowing US source income to be treated as foreign income, for tax credit purposes.

On 1/20/2025 at 1:28 AM, JohnnyBD said:

if they were non-taxed monies from a Roth IRA, why would the IRS give a tax credit if those monies were not taxed in the US.

It wouldn't. A tax credit can only be granted against US tax paid on the same income taxed by the foreign country. A Roth, of course, has no equivalent US tax to bounce a credit off of.

[Roth is a whole new problem, not addressed in the US-Thai DTA. The US got around this with the UK by a protocol to the DTA dictating that US tax exempt monies, like a Roth, have to be treated the same by the UK, i.e., tax exempt. Would we see such a protocol with US-Thai DTA? Probably not in my lifetime. In the meantime, memorize Por 162, that says pre 2024 income -- which a Roth consists of -- is not taxable when brought into Thailand. Jury still out on this, as one tax firm -- Expatthai tax -- insists pre 2024 income can only be from a bank account. Baloney, I say. Just wonder what the official TRD position is.........]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

Look what he says about US Social Security. Posted 2 days ago, so is the most up to date that we have.

Nothing he says about US Social Security supports your assertions.

4 hours ago, essexman said:

She added my pension payments together and then worked out my allowances.  The amount was a bit  less than I had worked

You've got my curiosity up... What was the difference between her figures and deduction/allowance categories -- and yours? Thanx.

52 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

TRD auditors can ask for information going back 10 years, past this period everything becomes savings

Well, before Por 161, out year remittances weren't considered income for taxation purposes. The 10 year audit window was, then, to monitor income from within Thailand. I think I might feel fairly secure that once my income had been processed by my home country tax service -- in my case, the IRS -- I could consider it savings. And, I'd probably self-assess on that basis. But, I certainly wouldn't welcome the chance to explain this to an auditor.... Nevertheless, this is another gray area among many in this new world of Thai taxation -- and with any gray area, you take the fork in the road that is to your advantage.

3 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

I've read we could add her name to the fixed account in the black-light visible signature block, which shouldn't cause any problems with immigration but will give her access to the funds.  I can't confirm this

This is called co-signatory, and I have it with my wife on my Bangkok Bank savings account. And, yes, her name only visible under black light, so no 'joint account' aspect to queer Immigration. Also, we've online banking, and that would be her first avenue to draining my account upon death. Co-signatory is backup, where she could walz into the bank, with my passbook, and drain my account. Supposedly not above board if I'm dead -- but bank doesn't get reports of client deaths. And, since wife is sole heir in my Will, no aggrieved party to squawk. Fait accompli comes to mind.

Probation reportedly starts at 50,000bt, and takes many months. Certainly not worth it for a bank account, so backdoor procedures seem the way to go. Even our bank manager gave us a wink, wink on this procedure -- having no love for the lawyer mafia presumably. Again, who's going to file a claim, if wife is sole heir and executor in my Will.....

Co-signatory also a good policy, should you be flat on your back in a coma.

3 hours ago, rocketboy2 said:

But does foreign rental income ever become savings in the eyes of the Thai revenue department.

That's the best question asked on this forum in ages. Say your rental income from 2024 rests in your bank account until 2030, when you, as a Thai tax resident, finally remit it to Thailand. How will it be treated? Bounce that off of the following:

Quote

such income has been earned in any tax year starting from 1 January 2024 onward by a foreigner who stays in Thailand for 180 days or more in a tax (calendar) year, and;
such income earned has been remitted to Thailand (wholly or partially), even if that remittance occurs in a later tax year

This says, yeah, when remitted to Thailand in 2030, it has to be declared as income. That's bonkers! How about remitted in 2045? At some point income transitions into savings. And I would suggest that point is when subject income has gone through your home country tax process, either to be taxed, to not be taxed, or to be determined as tax exempt. After which, it is no longer income. Would TRD buy that? Dunno.

Of course, the same logic could be applied to: 2024 rental income being declared when you file your home country taxes in 2025. Then, after it's gone through this home country tax process, it becomes savings. And, as such, if you then remit it to Thailand after doing your home country taxes, it is, as savings, no longer taxable by Thailand.

This might be a stretch, as far as TRD is concerned. But what exactly is the difference in this scenario between after tax rental income in home country bank account, after home country tax return accomplished in 2025 -- and same scenario, but now in 2045?

So, yeah -- big question -- when does income transform into savings? Hmmmm.

42 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Why you telling me ?

Are you serious? Nobody can tell you anything.

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

And right on cue, here is Benjamin

His last sentence is dead wrong, where he says: Taxability of a wire transfer depends on "the underlying purpose of the funds being transferred." Nonsense. Taxability depends on the nature of the funds transferred, whether income or not -- and if income, whether or not Thailand considers it assessable (taxable) income. 

Shame on you, Benjamin. You're beginning to sound like Thomas Carden.

On 1/21/2025 at 12:09 PM, oldcpu said:

I wish one of those who obtained a letter from their health insurance company, claiming they met the appropriate health insurance requirement (for the LTR visa) that they would post the EXACT WORDING of said letter (with any private aspects blocked/whited out).