JimGant

16 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

If the the USA-Thai DTA article 20 Pars. 2 & 3 are applied, I won't have any tax bill in Thailand at all.

Yes, for para 2 (Social Security). But para 3 treats annuities the same as private pensions, IRAs, other 40x type plans (para 1), namely: Thailand, as resident country, has exclusive taxation rights (although "exclusive" is moot, since the US also taxes this money via the saving clause, found in all US DTAs). So, if you won't have any tax bill in Thailand, great. But it won't be because of para 3.

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

As I  have posted before, without any foreign tax credits or DTA-stuff, my tax bill based just on the currently available deductions, would be about $US 100 per month. Especially the 190K baht age 65+ credit.

If your US tax bill is $100/mo, your Thai taxes will be a one for one tax credit.

1 hour ago, Wrwest said:

I am in a relative same boat. USA Social Security plus withdrawals from retirement savings fund. All subject to USA income tax. But my annual total falls below taxation levels so there are no taxes owed to Uncle Sam. All these retirement funds were earned based on income from previous years. I am hoping that the USA tax treaty between the USA and Thailand will preclude any taxation of income that I am required to bring into Thailand (at 65K a month). I can envision a diplomatic issue here.

I assume your "retirement savings fund" is an IRA, 401k, similar. And, unlike Canadians, the US does not have exclusive taxation rights on private pensions and IRA type programs. So, Thailand has priority taxation rights on your IRA -- but, not your Social Security. So, if remitted, your IRA would be subject to a Thai tax filing. As there's probably no other income to include, maybe after allowances, that IRA would be little enough not to be taxable. If not, it probably wouldn't be much. However, as you say you wouldn't owe any US tax on this, the Thai tax credit would be for nought.

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

The expat tax advisors who did the presentation  also indicated they expected that foreign card ATM withdrawals and even foreign card (debit or credit) purchases made in Thailand likely will end up being considered importing foreign income -- though they acknowledged the Rev. Dept. hasn't specifically opined on that issue as yet.

Christ, here we go again. Until they abandon the "remittance" angle, they'll never be able to parse out money "sent" to Thailand (and an ATM pull could be construed as "sent") between savings and income. In my case, all money sent is from a Wise transfer from my savings account, which has money from inheritances, IRA drawdowns, direct deposits of gov't pensions, interest, stock sales, etc. It's a fungible pile of dollars -- and the only before-tax income in there is interest. Now, Thailand says they're going to tax "foreign source income." Fine -- if foreign source income is direct deposited into a Thai bank. Other cash flows coming into Thailand cannot have any income aspect separated from the whole. Thailand knows this -- and that's why we're occasionally hearing, 'we'll just tax all remittances.' I won't even honor that statement with the obvious. So, the only alternative is to identify foreign income at the source, which thru CRS and FATCA reporting, and info exchange language in DTAs -- is relatively easy, compared to the impossible task of identifying income in remittances. Heck, Thailand knows all my income from last year, when I presented a package of 1099 tax forms to BoI -- in my LTR application. Certainly, under the info exchange rules and avenues available today, Thai RD could suck up 1099's of all Americans (and similar for other nationalities).

No, the remittance avenue won't work. They'll have to abandon this approach, and go to the income scenario. Or, just abandon the whole thing (which may happen, if Thai fat cats have their say).

And, as far as how DTAs might be affected -- Thailand is not about to violate treaties protected by Vienna conventions. Heck, if things go where I think they will, the Thai-US DTA is to their advantage, as now Thailand will have "first dibs" on taxing my IRA proceeds, and other private type pensions. I won't be out any more money, as the Thai taxes will be a credit against my US taxes. But Thailand will now be able to use DTAs to their advantage.

The easiest and safest payment method is: pay on delivery. I use this all the time with Lazada, from furniture to vitamins. Never had to return an item, so don't know how this works. But, certainly paying the delivery man the amount described in the contract, is a no-brainer -- no worries about paying for something never delivered; nor worries about credit card info going astray.

13 hours ago, Pib said:

You gotta use an old fashion ink pin....it's not fillable with a computer.  As mentioned BoI provided.

Just create your own fillable fields using Adobe Acrobat. Yeah, I know -- the cost is ridiculous, plus you can't buy it anymore -- you have to subscribe and pay annually. Fortunately, I've some older pirated versions that work just fine  -- except with some newer PDF fillable forms. Can you find such software on the street anymore?

1 hour ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

If Thai taxation of overseas income stays on a remittance basis, then it is generally easily managed.

Yes, under the current system, where income remitted the following year is tax exempt (and we filter this thru a home bank account, not via direct deposit to Thailand). But if all remittances, whenever remitted, are subject to taxation, and income has to be parsed from savings, then it becomes unmanageable (when I Wise a huge chunk of my savings account to Thailand, a savings account consisting of multiple after tax direct deposits) -- and established with an inheritance -- and where accounting rules, like Fifo or Lifo, don't apply to remittances (these are GAAP terms) -- how are you going to sort out this fungible mess of dollars?).

Anyway, we've heard rumblings about converting to an income vice remittance system. And, if Thailand is serious about collecting more taxes from overseas income, then this is the way they'll have to go; because their current 'brought in next year' is very clever at tax avoidance, and doesn't require a parsing between income and savings: It just gives blanket cover to all cash flow sent into Thailand, with the understanding that any income involved had to be earned in a previous year, otherwise the sender was nuts. Now, however, with the new proposed rules, parsing must take place, as you can't tax all remitted cash flow -- and such parsing is impossible, with reasonable screening resources. Thus, we'll either return to the old system, if the fat cats have their way -- or income, not remittances, will be the taxation of the future. 

2 hours ago, federicoP said:

When paying the tax here, I also ask for the documents R.O. 21 (Certification, in english, of the amount for which I paid here) and R.O.22 (Certification that I am, for that year, fiscal resident in Thailand).
These documents may be useful in relation to the treat against double taxation between my native country and Thailand The tax on the pension is lower here in Thailand and I pay only here the tax on it, as allowed by the DTA.

If my native country asks something about the payment for my pension I can show them these documents.

Sounds like the Norwegian example. The Norwegian - Thai DTA has Thailand as the primary tax authority for Norwegian tax residents of Thailand, to include Norwegian govt pensions. All's that's required is for Norwegians to produce a Thai tax return, showing that all their Norwegian income was taxed by the Thais. As such, Norway will exclude such income from their taxes, which, in most cases, would be higher than that of the Thais. But, unlike with other DTAs, there is no provision for a tax credit, with the difference being paid into the Norwegian coffer.  Instead, it's just: You pay taxes in Thailand, you don't pay taxes in Norway. Nice.

I guess Norwegians (and others with similar DTAs) aren't losing too much sleep over these new tax regulations.

42 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Are you bored, lonely, ever considered a hobby!

Naaa. Identifying misrepresentation suffices as a hobby.

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Has it ever occurred to you that, the reason for no place to notate non-assessable income, is because they're not interested in income that has no meaning in regards to your tax bill.....

 

That would be unusual since every other country I file taxes in or have ever filed taxes in, does.

Well, in the US, you don't report these on your Form 1040:  Gifts, inheritance, welfare payments, alimony (since 2018), child support payments, health care benefits, life insurance proceeds, credit card cash rebates, scholarships, etc. But, yeah, you do report tax exempt interest from municipal bonds, since Uncle Sam needs this to figure your "modified adjusted gross income," which, if too high, means you pay a higher Medicare premium.

Anyway, I'll let you worry about reporting all your non-assessable income, lest the fraud police come knocking. Jeez.

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I do give ALL my numbers to the RD when they enter them into the system, assessable and non-assessable. This is because there does not appear to be anywhere on the form to notate non-assessable income

Has it ever occurred to you that, the reason for no place to notate non-assessable income, is because they're not interested in income that has no meaning in regards to your tax bill.....

Quote

If this was not true, why else would they go to the trouble of entering all my data into the tax system when the result is no tax due.

Trying to humor you, perhaps....? And your implication that you'd be guilty of fraud, if you didn't provide info on non-assessable income, is just plain weird.

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

So if you reclaim tax on interest paid and fail to report assessable overseas income, that's OK? 

No, but under current rules I have no assessable income, since to be assessable, it has to be remitted in the year earned. Plus, even if remitted in same year earned, my military retirement pay and Social Security would not be assessable income, since the US has exclusive taxation rights, per the DTA, on this income.

Maybe I misunderstood an earlier post of yours which seemed to say you filed an annual Thai tax return that included non assessable income......? If so, why would you do this -- do you think the Thais are interested in numbers that don't result in tax revenue?

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes I agree. But that doesn't change any part of what I wrote, you still have to declare that income, not just the part to reclaim the tax on bank interest.

Completely wrong.

Thailand woke up a few years back, when they noted that first world countries, like the US, collected taxes from non resident Thai citizens, who had bank accounts in the States, and who maybe visited the States as tourists (but never long enough to become tax residents). Such taxes were 'withholding at the source', and defined as 'final taxation.' By fiat, 30% -- but reducible via DTA, and the filing of a W8BEN with the withholder, to 15%. Of course, this would be the only way to get taxes from these folks, as they weren't required to file a tax return. Thus, a fiat 30%/15%, regardless of what tax bracket you might be in, should you file a return. Thailand took note, realizing a lot of long term tourists had bank accounts, but weren't considered tax residents due to time spent here. So, every bank account with a farang identifier, gets 15% withheld -- even my joint account with Thai wife. Pretty smart, actually, as how many affected tourists have the time or inclination to get back some measily baht withholding tax..... And for full time farangs, probably most, with no other tax obligations, let it slide, to the benefit of Thai coffers.

On 11/30/2023 at 4:23 PM, trandall said:

My US tax bracket is 22%, and my income would place me in the 35% tax bracket in Thailand. Will I be required to pay the 12% difference?

You need to figure your effective tax rate on your rental income. Easy. What's your tax bill before you add the rental income to your taxable income pile; then what's the tax bill afterwards. That additional tax, divided by your rental income, is your effective taxation on the rental income. But, the rate's not that important -- what's important is the dollar amount that's used as the tax credit on your Thai tax bill. And if that's greater than your Thai tax, nothing paid to Thailand. 

But, if rental income is the only income subject to Thai taxation (as other income may be gov't pensions, social security, Roth payouts -- all NOT subject to inclusion on your Thai tax return), your Thai tax return, with only rental income, may have an effective taxation less than that of your US return. Thus, all the Thai tax is covered by the credit. But, if the other way, then, yes, you'll pay whatever remains of the Thai tax, after taking the credit for the US tax.

But, they're not going to screw us on this LTR exemption. BoI's boss is the Prime Minister, and they're not about to let the Ministry of Finance tarnish their LTR effort and reputation.

On 11/29/2023 at 10:18 AM, Mike Lister said:

Just remember though that when you do that next year, you will also need to report all your income into Thailand and account for it, not just reclaim the tax on interest. If you don't you will have filed an incomplete return which will be fraudulent.

I keep hearing this phrase from you, and wonder where you got it from? The last thing Thailand's RD wants are thousands of pages with numbers that don't generate any tax revenue. If I don't have any taxable income to report, because: It wasn't remitted; or it was remitted but was exempt from Thai taxes due to exclusivity in the DTA (e.g,. my US Air Force pension and Social Security); or it was remitted, but was tax exempt income in my home country (Roth payouts, interest from tax exempt bonds, etc). See here on this last point:

Quote

a) Pensions and other similar remuneration beneficially owned by a resident of a
Contracting State shall be taxable only in that State.
b) Notwithstanding subparagraph a), the amount of any such pension or
remuneration arising in a Contracting State that, when received, would be exempt from taxation in that State if the beneficial owner were a resident thereof shall be exempt from taxation in the Contracting State of which the beneficial owner is a resident.

OECD Model Agreement

Then, no need to file a Thai tax return. What, pray tell, is the fraud that might be involved.....?

So, like in the US, if you have no taxable income, no tax return is required to be filed (a few exceptions, like, if you're independently employed). Thus, Thailand is not prepared to deal with all this paperwork from tax residents filing tax returns, but who don't owe any taxes. Logic dictates they'll just have to go on the self-assessment wagon, with some random audits, particularly of large sum remitters, to see what's what.

I'm not worried, and wouldn't be, even if I didn't have an LTR visa. Thailand's not going to shoot themselves in the foot by examining all foreign remittance into Thailand -- thus killing Foreign Direct Investment -- a big necessity for the economy to go forward. No, I think what we'll see is taxation on worldwide income (subject to DTA dictates) and not taxation of remitted cash flow, where maybe income can be parsed from capital (not likely). Thailand's not stupid -- the remitted gimmick was to allow Thai fat cats a tax avoidance scheme. Hopefully, such fat cats won't queer the situation that now requires taxation on worldwide income, and not just on remitted income. Stay tuned.

8 hours ago, trandall said:

Most of my income is derived from rental properties in the US, and the income from which appears to be taxable in Thailand if brought into the country after Jan 1, 2024.

Under the DTA between the US and Thailand, the US has primary taxing authority (but not exclusive) on rental income from properties in the US. Thailand could also tax it, but would have to give a credit for all the tax paid to the US, which probably means little or no tax paid to Thailand. So, assuming you don't get an LTR visa, or the LTR tax exemption falls through -- worst case would probably be the paperwork drill of maybe having to file a Thai tax return.

Quote

This Article does not grant an exclusive taxing right to the situs State; the situs State is merely given the primary right to tax.

From the technical explanation of Article 6 (Rents) of the Thai-US DTA.

I submitted three 1099's -- Air Force, Social Security, and RMD from my Schwab IRA. Submitted a summary page explaining and totalizing. Also submitted the related Form 1040, but as this was a joint return, the consolidated numbers are worthless without the 1099 breakouts. Also submitted current year's projected pay, based on pay stubs, plus proof of already taken RMD. Guess this satisfied BOI, as I didn't receive any requests for further information.

21 hours ago, Pib said:

and a shirt with collar....like a polo shirt.

Use a collared shirt for your photo too. As I recall, someone was denied his photo submission because he was wearing a tee shirt. Handy with Photoshop -- dress yourself up in a coat and tie.

33 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

In DTA's  it says the Thai revenue dept  must give the better ie  lower  rate on this  money when taxing it, I dont see anybody mentioning this  much?

The only tax rates mentioned in the DTAs are those 10 and 15% figures applicable to interest and dividends. For other income, like pensions, you pay full fare taxation to the country doing the taxing.

3 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Why don't you do the annual report online?

I must of missed that bulletin. Originally, only in person or via an agent was acceptable. Then, I believe, by mail was allowed. So, now, online?