JimGant

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

all you are able to do is attack anything I contribute.

Not everything. Sometimes your presentations make sense.

3 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

There are some years where most of my income is in the form of capital gains generated in the US. So the DTA would help some, but there would still be a large Thai tax liability.

Granted. Yanks with long term cap gains, and qualified dividends, wouldn't be protected from Thai taxes by the DTA. That wasn't, initially, obvious to me, since all my cap gains are generated within my IRA, thus treated as ordinary income.

Haven't heard any talk lately about "if you have a DTA, and you pay income taxes in your home country, then no need to file a Thai tax return." That would be nice for us Yanks -- and, yes, would cost Thailand some tax receipts. But, for those expats currently not paying anyone taxes -- TRD might be very interested when you can't show a home country tax return.

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

No Gant, nobody said that at all. What was said is that all Visa & Mastercard transactions involving foreign cards, are reported  by Visa/Mastercard Thailand, to BOT, because of their foreign exchange implications. But you knew that.

Sorry, my mistake. I thought someone had suggested TRD was going to investigate farang credit card charges. But since that's ludicrous, I'll go along with any investigation stopping at BOT, per your take on the subject.

1 hour ago, stat said:

One of the big advantages of using a credit card is that it does not show up on the immediate radar of TRD.

Indeed. Somebody on this forum suggested TRD will go out and canvass merchants about farang credit card purchases. Think about that scenario for awhile, if you'd like a good chuckle.

7 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

but my interest is whether there is any new news about the plan to force Farangs to leave Thailand by imposing onerous taxation.

Out of curiosity, what is your home country? Would love to see what onerous taxation is on the horizon, based on your DTA.

2 hours ago, Presnock said:

Actually for the LTR visa he BOI wanted the 1040 for PROOF of my income - I had given them the 1099R but they wanted the 1040

BOI also wanted my 1040 -- but since it was joint, it made no sense without 1099 delineation. Thus, my 1099s, with an explanation sheet, breezed right thru.

4 hours ago, Presnock said:

The way taxes in US are done, one should do the US taxes first, followed by the Thai as opposed to letting the Thai grab a chunk first off and try to get something back

Having a hard time envisioning this scenario, for foreign remitted income. Let me suggest a straw man, say a private pension paid by Ford, periodically. And let's say the pension is paid and remitted in the same year -- thus this straw man would apply for both a remittance and for a worldwide tax situation.

First -- the Thai-US DTA gives "exclusive" taxation rights for private pensions to Thailand (but the US retains secondary taxation rights, due to the "saving clause" in the DTA). Thus, in March (or is it April?) of 2025 I need to file a Thai tax return for 2024 income, assuming the Ford pension amount plus other assessable income dictates so. So I do, and say the taxes owed on the Ford income came to $2000, using the mandated FX rate (whatever that may be -- for remitted income, simply use FX for date of transfer -- but for worldwide income, either year average or end of year rate. Dunno.) Voila. Thailand, as exclusive/primary taxation authority -- gets to keep the full $2000. No "grab back" in this scenario. They just need to provide a credit amount for US taxation purposes, to avoid double taxation.

Now, I do my US tax return for TY2024 -- I can wait 'til June 2025 to do it, since I live abroad. And I can use the Thai $2000 tax as a one-for-one credit against my US taxes (there can be limitations -- but any disallowed credits can carry over to later years). I have to fill-out and file a Form 1116 for this credit. And also file a Form 8833 -- a form that shows that the tax treaty trumps the Tax Code, overriding the the requirement that foreign tax credits are only good for foreign taxes on foreign income.

Now, you can file your US tax return. TurboTax will accept a Form 1116 - but not a Form 8833. But, if you want to file electronically, TurboTax will allow you to without the Form 8833. You just have to eventually mail it to the IRS, with info associating it with your original electronic filing.

The US tax filing doesn't require any substantiating documents for the Thai tax credit. Thus, you could even figure out what your Thai tax would be -- on the back of an envelope. No need to wait 'til the actual filing of a Thai tax return. Thus, clear to file your US tax return early in the year.

As an observation. The only scenarios where Thailand would absorb a tax credit for US taxes paid -- is for rental incomes on immovable property, and for capital gains, on immovable property. This is because the DTA gives the US -- where the immovable property is located -- primary taxation authority. But, it does give secondary taxation authority to Thailand. Thus, the US keeps all the taxes collected -- but Thailand can also tax this income -- but only gets to keep what's left over after absorbing the tax credit, if any. Again, on the back of an envelope, I could determine what, if any, Thai taxes would remain after subtracting out the tax credit. If negative, I wouldn't even bother filing a Thai tax return, if this was the only income subject to taxation.

But what if there were some positive tax collection after the credit? I guess, then, I should file a Thai tax return. But where on this filing would I put the tax credit from my US tax return? Maybe on line 13 from this excerpt from a Thai electronic Thai return? Dunno. But, having no rental property, not overly interested.

On 10/10/2024 at 2:20 AM, chiang mai said:

If you want to debate this issue with me, you must try harder to remain focussed on the things being discussed

Shouldn't the guidance for this thread come from the OP? (chuckle, chuckle)

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

This thread has once again become dreary, disappointing and short on substance

Right on! Where's Mike Lister when we need him.....?

16 hours ago, Phulublub said:

The remittance (for that is what it is) may or may not be assessable in EXACTLY the same way as a cash transfer from bank ccount to bank account.

Actually, in my case, it would be EXACTLY the same. My checking account only contains non assessable income (direct deposits from my Air Force pension and from Social Security). Thus, when my bank does a monthly direct debit from my checking account to pay off the Visa charge for purchases I made in Thailand -- I maintain that characterizes the "loan" I received from Visa for the Thai purchases the same as the payback, i.e., non assessable.

No different than a Wise transfer of non assessable income from this same checking account.

13 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

Plus, he actually has been doing this and dealing with the TRD for many years, unlike many other agencies that have sprung up opportunistically since the 'new interpretations' were publicised last year.

He's a charlatan. When you have time, grab a beer, kick back, and read this thread.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1008555-tax-specialist-in-chiang-mai/

43 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

the point is what funds are being used to pay off the credit card.

Which was exactly my point, to go after the Siam Legal beagles that just flatly said, "credit card purchases are a taxable event" Period. Without consideration of payment source. Anyway, I guess we're on the same frequency.

36 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Do you honestly believe that you paying for goods & services in Thailand with a credit card is not the same as you remitting money to pay for those services? 
 

The rest of it is about whether the funds used to pay of the credit card is assessable or not.

Not sure of your point.......if the credit card you use for purchases in Thailand is paid off with non assessable income/funds, then there is no taxable event. Plain and simple.  What am I missing?

22 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Somebody somewhere may get something useful out of this to help them better understand their tax situation or maybe even help provide some tips regarding strategy.

Ah, now I understand our disconnect. You're only remitting part of your rental income. And as such, you can call that remittance from either a  gross or net figure -- and, of course, gross allows you to take the 30% deduction.

I'd been assuming you were remitting all your rental proceeds. And since remittances are a cash flow situation -- and since cash expenses reduce you cash rental income -- then that rental remittance cash flow to Thailand -- would be net rental income. We were on different frequencies.

But, when we go to worldwide income, this cash flow peculiarity will disappear -- and what will be subject to Thai taxation will be net rentals, i.e., using the US example -- the rental figure included in the "gross income" line on your 1040 (yes, a confusing contradiction of terms -- no one ever called the IRS bright).

I guess a discussion for another day.

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I (could) remit 535 -96 to Thailand and that would be considered my gross rent which would be subject to a 30% deduction for expenses.

Actually, as you've subtracted out your only expense on that rental income, what you've remitted is your net rental income -- and you'd be on the wrong side of integrity if you subtracted out a further 30% deduction for expenses. So, no, you haven't remitted gross rental income. But, what many of us have said here -- what is remitted to Thailand is what is  considered "gross taxable income" [gross, because it hasn't been reduced by standard deduction]. And taxable income is revenue minus expenses. And this is how you have to characterize cash flow remitted to Thailand -- it is an amount, not net of taxes, that both countries can use a baseline for their taxation purposes.

Quote

I have zero interest in reading about DTA's especially US/Thai DTA's and filter them out because they don't concern me and I have no interest.

Then, you have no reason to participate in a thread affecting expats. Jeez, it's your UK-Thai DTA that says Thailand has a secondary taxation right in your rental income. So how can you say you have no interest -- when what we're talking about is completely affected by the DTA?

On 10/1/2024 at 11:44 AM, chiang mai said:

It was discussed a long time ago that any rental income that is remitted to Thailand would be considered gross of all home country deductions which would be replaced by the 30% Thai standard deduction, or, if actual expenses were greater and all receipts were available, the greater amount.

 

That these things don't make sense to you is of no interest to anyone apart from you

Oh, ****, why do you go off on these stupid tangents. You've already said that you don't give tax advice, which is good, since you're not qualified. anr's observations are right on the money, at least as they apply to Yanks -- so it IS of interest to the American expat community in Thailand.

First and foremost, Thailand is interested in remitted income, after it's been thrashed through the wringer, and comes out on a home country tax return as "gross income." For US rental income, it first goes through Schedule E wringing, where expenses are deducted from rental proceeds, and the resulting figure is put on line 5, "additional income," on Schedule 1. This figure is included in the final Schedule 1 figure, that is put on the front of Form 1040, and shows up in line 11 as "adjusted gross income." Thus, the net figure on your Schedule E, becomes a finalized gross figure on your Form 1040 -- and this is the amount you self-assess on your Thai tax return.

Why declare your US rental income on a Thai tax return? Well, the DTA gives primary taxation rights for this income to the US. But it also gives secondary taxation rights to Thailand. So, to be correct, you're supposed to declare this rental income on a Thai tax return. However, Thailand has to give you a credit for the taxes paid to the US for this income. Thus, on the back of an envelope, you could determine whether or not this rental income, after subtracting the tax credit, even brings you into being a Thai taxable income situation. If not, and there are no other taxable income scenarios -- don't file -- if you have something more important to do, like a tee time.

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

According to some members, filing a null return is not wanted and makes you a stupid person. But if you want to get back the tax with held on your interest, I would certainly recommend filing anyway.

Actually, if you're a Yank, you can still not be stupid by filing a Thai tax return to get back your withheld tax on interest -- and just take a tax credit on your US tax return for those Thai withheld taxes. No proof of Thai taxes withheld is needed with your US filing -- and if those taxes are below 20,000baht ($600), filing jointly ($300, single) -- only a single line item entry is required. For higher amounts, a Form 1116 is required -- but it's an easy fill. All this plugs easily into your TurboTax actions.

The only requirement is that you're unable to get a refund from the Thai govt. But to get a refund, you need a TIN. And as we know from this forum, there are plenty of examples of folks being denied TINs for not having a work permit, etc. Good enough excuse for an IRS audit. Thus, one more reason not to get a TIN -- and to avoid all contact with the TRD.

5 minutes ago, stat said:

I am not allowed to post sources in German here that confirm my statement, sorry.

Someone already explained that your "government pension" was actually a social service payment of some kind, not a pension for services rendered to German government. This would be akin to the UK, where their State Pension is not for services rendered to the govt -- and is taxable by Thailand. But a UK pension paid for service to the govt is solely taxable in the UK -- same for a German pension paid for your work for the govt.

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

That sort of response from TRD staff is dangerous, unless they already understand your tax position completely.

....and your tax position, as shown by your filled-in null tax return, is that you don't owe any taxes. What could be easier to understand? Duh.

But you're not, I hope, suggesting you unload all your remitted income data to the agent, and have her determine which is, and which isn't, assessable income -- which, of course, would involve her knowing your DTA's particulars -- which would be a ludicrous position to take.

Seems to me some guy named  **** actually did offload all his income data to TRD, to have them decipher which was, and wasn't, assessable income. I remember this distinctly because of its nonsense value.

14 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The last time I filed a null return was five years ago. When the woman had almost finished entering the information into the system she turned and asked, can I ask you why you're filing a return when you aren't owed any money. I hesitated slightly and before I could answer she said, with a slight smile, I think I understand why, 

 

Draw your own conclusions.

She thought you were crazy?