JimGant

16 hours ago, zeekgarcia said:

I see a lot of people saying they use wise and I am trying to see if it is better to use than using a visa or mastercard no fee US debit card that refunds atm fees, no over the counter withdraw fees etc?

Right now the Visa rate and Wise rates for dollar to baht exchange are the same: 35.45 (MC is probably about the same, as it usually is). This has always been an attractive feature of using my fee free US credit card -- the Visa Fx rate approximates the interbank exchange rate, similar to Wise. So, I can enjoy the full exchange rate, like 35.45 -- and get a 2% cash reward in addition. And, if I used my fee free Schwab debit/ATM card in a Thai ATM, I'd also realize the 35.45 rate.

If I sent $1000 via Wise, after their fees, I'd get an effective exchange rate of 35.14 (slightly better for $10000, at 35.18).

Don't know what the over the counter fees are today, if any. Obviously, if no fees, this would beat Wise for getting cash into your hand.

On 11/6/2023 at 7:50 PM, scorecard said:

Further, in some countries state pensions are specifically / totally exempt from tax. But I'm guessing that doesn't automatically mean these funds are not subject to Thai personal taxation and regardless of any double tax agreement.   

Well, I reported this earlier, in more detail, but here's a ruling on the latest US income tax model (2006) for DTAs. Whether such language applies to all/most DTAs is questionable, but there's a large commonality amongst DTAs, largely due to most countries following the Model language from the OECD and UN DTA boilerplate.

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However, the State of residence, under subparagraph (b), must exempt from tax any amount of such pensions or other similar remuneration that would be exempt from tax in the Contracting State in which the pension fund is established if the recipient were a resident of that State.

https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/131/Treaty-US-Model-TE-2006.pdf

Now, if your DTA had this language, but Thailand decided to ignore it -- well, that's a whole different question. But it's doubtful Thailand would want to torpedo DTAs, as they seem to be, overall, in Thailand's favor.

1 hour ago, Swiss1960 said:

BUT BE AWARE: when switching from marriage to retirement, you NEED one last time kor ror 2, wife ID and wife to prove to immigration that at the time of switching, you are still married.

Or, I guess, your wife's death certificate. Which leads me to say: I believe your marriage extension is good until expiration date after your wife's death. Not sure how that works for divorce.....(?).

On 10/8/2023 at 11:50 AM, MartinL said:

The UK-Thai DTT seems, to me (although my take could very well be totally wrong), to offer no relief from double taxation for me, as the recipient of non-government pensions. That's a concern.

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Thai tax payable under the laws of Thailand and in accordance with this Convention, whether directly or by deduction, on profits, income or chargeable gains from sources within Thailand (excluding, in the case of a dividend, tax payable in respect of the profits out of which the dividend is paid) shall be allowed as a credit against any United Kingdom tax computed by reference to the same profits, income or chargeable gains by reference to which the Thai tax is computed.

Article 23  Thai UK tax treaty

2 hours ago, stat said:

In Thailand they want to make falangs pay tax while the average Thai pays nothing, as for falangs the law will be applied differently.

How applied differently? If both Thais and farangs are being honest in their assessable income declarations, the same deductions and allowances apply -- and the same taxes owed. You're saying Thais will be able to cheat, but no so farangs?

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I can see conversations being held behind closed, particularly by the 61 Countries who have DTA's with Thailand. Along the lines of ' You have less than 4 million Thais paying income tax, suggest you sort our your own internal affairs, before thinking about taxing Citizens of other Countries '

Huh? The DTAs with Thailand already give Thailand the right to tax certain foreign income belonging to foreign tax residents of Thailand (like, as a Yank, my IRA payout or my pension from Boeing, etc). Only because of their "remittance" requirement -- a domestic law, with no relationship to any DTA language -- to include "exempt if brought in in a later calendar year" have foreigners (along with Thai fat cats) been allowed to avoid Thai income tax.

Now, they're wising up, modifying their domestic remittance law to allow them to take full advantage of the DTA language giving them priority, or even exclusive taxation rights on certain foreign income belonging to tax resident foreign expats. Don't blame them for finally using the DTA agreement they signed to finally collect some tax on foreign income, that had been denied due to a stupid domestic law regarding "remittance."

Yes, the stupid remittance law will still be in place, which will still allow some, or maybe all, income from an expat to avoid taxation (if he doesn't need to bring that income into Thailand, ever). And the reason it will still be in place is because Thai fat cats still need it to shelter foreign income, which now, instead of being remitted in the following year, will stay abroad in Swiss ski chalet property, or used to buy yachts and private jets, to finally end up in Thailand for resale. Hey, Thailand, if you really want to fatten your coffer, do away with the remittance requirement and just tax foreign income -- like the rest of the civilized world does. Much harder for the fat cats to duck this.

Anyway, to somehow think the new proposed rule violates any language in any DTA is ridiculous. To the contrary -- just shows Thailand can finally make money by using the language of all those DTAs to its advantage.

5 hours ago, bamnutsak said:

Would the annuity need to be remitted to Thailand in order to be assessable income?

Yes.

25 minutes ago, Des1 said:

... so as I understand it, because of this agreement I am not required to pay tax in Thailand.

Sounds like it. And it seems Canada has exclusive taxation rights on both govt and private pensions -- unlike your southern cousins, where only govt pensions are exclusively the privilege of the IRS, not Thailand.

13 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

May be taxed in the contracting state where the property is located" does not mean taxing the income in Thailand is prohibited in Thailand. That would only be the case, if the wording were "....shall be taxed in the contracting state where the property is located."  That allows Thailand to choose between: not taxing it at all; allowing a tax credit and collecting the difference between Thai and UK tax, if Thai tax is higher; and charging full Thai tax and giving a Thai tax credit. The RD has already suggested it would allow tax credits.

Not exactly. The following quote is from the Technical Explanation for the Thai-US DTA. The second sentence is from another source, but gives further clarity:

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"..... income of a resident of a Contracting State derived from real property situated in the other Contracting State may be taxed in the Contracting State in which the property is situated. This Article does not grant an exclusive taxing right to the situs State; the situs State is merely given the primary right to tax."

 

"Taxing rights granted by the agreements will be either primary or subsidiary. Primary rights give an unrestricted right to tax the property in question; subsidiary rights allow taxation, but only after giving credit for the tax on the property in the other country."

 Makes sense. If both contracting countries have taxing rights on the same income, one country has to have "first dibs," i.e., have primary taxing authority. You can't flip a coin to see which country gets to keep all its taxation, while the other country only gets to keep the taxation in excess of the subtracted-out credits -- if there is any left. Thus, if you have rental property in the UK (or US, wherever), the UK gets "first dibs" on taxation -- and on keeping all that taxation. Thailand can, if it wants, also tax this rental income (if remitted to Thailand, currently in same year). But it has to back out a credit for the UK taxes paid -- which probably means there's nothing left.

Now, if a country has exclusive taxation rights -- that's exactly what it says: The second country has no taxation rights, even if the country with exclusive taxation rights chooses not to exercise those rights....

... unless you're America, which has the "saving clause" in all its DTAs. This clause trumps the DTA's exclusivity clauses (with a few exceptions), allowing the US to tax all worldwide income, regardless of what the DTA says. Thus, if Thailand doesn't want to tax my IRA (or can't, because of their domestic law about remitting in the next calendar year), then Uncle Sam says, ok, we'll make sure this bugger pays taxes somewhere -- thanx, Thailand. (If Thailand does tax my IRA -- and maybe they'll start next year -- double taxation is avoided, with the US giving a tax credit for those taxes paid to Thailand. This would be a situation of Thailand having "first dibs.")

How do you think the US pays for all those wars..........

20 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

UOB meanwhile labels EVERY deposit into the account as income.

Could you show us what the label looks like? Thanx.

3 hours ago, paddypower said:

thanks for reminding me. ever year my tax account never asks me for the interest that the bank pays on my 800k. but, they do deduct 15% w/h tax, so screw it. In the immortal words of our formerly fugitive PM, 'it was an honest mistake'.

You can treat the 15% as 'withhold at source/final payment.' Thus, not reportable on your Thai tax return. Obviously, if you're in a higher tax bracket than 15%, this would be to your advantage.

On 10/21/2023 at 9:13 AM, Mike Lister said:

I would point out that all my overseas remittances into my Thai bank accounts is now clearly labelled as "Income"

Labelled by whom? If you send a Wise transfer, you're saying it's labelled as income? Makes no sense -- how would anybody in Thailand know it's income, if sent from one of your financial institution's accounts? Only if it's a direct deposit from, say, a pension payment -- would it have the flavor of income. But even here, it may not be income for Thai tax purposes (think: exempt due to DTA). So, labeling it "income" serves no purpose as far as the RD is concerned.

And, labeling all incoming remittances as "income" would push all FDI to other countries.

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Thailand has been and continues to be one of the most successful countries in the region for attracting Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), due to its numerous advantages for foreign investors seeking to do business in Asia.

https://www.boi.go.th/index.php?page=thailand_rankings

So, no, they're not going to label all remittances as income (which, if the obvious escaped you, would include FDI's) So logic and logistical common sense would dictate they're restricted to: PIT collection depends on taxpayers' faithful and full declaration of income in their PIT returns. Yes, sample audits for compliance may occur in larger numbers. And, FATCA and CRS reporting may increase the spotlight on compliance.

But for Americans, nothing changes, since we're already taxed on our worldwide income. Possibly Thai RD may fine tune the DTA, and figure out that Thailand (per DTA) had "primary tax authority" on my IRA payout. Ok, then this is where "faithful and full declaration" comes in, and I need to file a Thai tax return, declaring my IRA payout as assessable income for Thai tax purposes. Then, I take this tax payment as a credit against my US taxes -- and break even in my overall tax payment situation (note: for high five figure income, Thai tax MAY BE higher than US, and the difference has to be eaten -- not a huge number, however).

So, fellow Yanks. Go watch the NFL, and let the others worry about, hey, there may be taxes in their future.

6 hours ago, Negita43 said:

since taking money out of an ISA is completely tax free (and doesn't have to be reported to the tax authorities) so if I then send this to Thailand what is the status of that money since it's not taxable in the UK

This from a few pages back; it's from a technical explanation of a US DTA, but most DTAs are similar, being based on the OECD Model:

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And, based on this from the US technical explanation of US DTAs, if you remit cash flow to Thailand that is exempt from taxation in your source country -- well, then, it remains tax exempt in Thailand:

29 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Well not including something on your tax return can also be construed as tax evasion, don't ya think!

Not if it's not taxable.....Jeez.

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

That's my point, how do they know it's not taxable

....'cause you didn't include it on your tax return...... Give this circle jerk a rest -- RD is NOT interested in non-assessable income. Period.

19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

OK, and how does the tax payer communicate that fact to the RD and do they just leave them in the dark as to how they are managing their tax affairs in Thailand?

I would suggest the RD doesn't care about income that is not taxable.

20 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Another way to look at things is that the DTA can't be invoked for income you haven't declared.

...but it can be invoked to not declare certain income.

45 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

A fine of THB 2,000 applies for failure to file a tax return by the deadline.

And if your assessable income is above 60000 baht, and you're single -- you're supposed to file? Minimum wage is 300 baht per day, meaning if you work 6 days a week, 52 weeks a year -- 93600 baht is your annual income. Wow, a lot of minimum wagers, and sub minimum wagers, are subject to a 2000 baht fine. Can you define "ludicrous"?