JimGant

USAA Federal Savings Bank is now open to all (other USAA services, like insurance, still require a military connection). They don't require a physical presence to open an account or set-up wire transfers. And since they were established to support military members, dealing with folks overseas is their forte. Most countries, including Thailand, have a toll-free number to USAA.

Don't know if you can implement a wire transfer on-line (I use ACH for money transfers, which *can* be done on-line with USAA. However, a Bangkok Bank account is a requirement). But, the toll free phone method is a snap, as you set up a template ahead of time, with all the data required. Then, you just call (or fax,email), give them your template nickname and the amount you want sent, and that's it.

Wire fees: $35. ACH fees: free (but $10, for most transactions, at the Bangkok Bank New York intermediary)

More info on USAA on Thaivisa: HERE

My current understanding is the extra "free year" for the OA only applies to MULTIPLE ENTRY O-A visas.

Yep. And that's why Yanks should not apply at the LA Consulate, where only single-entry O-A visas are issued.

Two warnings, it takes a full 30 days before those funds appear in your Thai bank account, and do not deposit more than $9,500 at a time. Deposits of over $10,000 require the bank to file special paperwork and it is a pain for them, or so it seems.

Maybe so with a check deposit. However, a SWIFT wire transfer shows up in a day -- and an EFT/ACH transfer, normally within two days (if there's no middleman involved, as there currently is with Bank of America, and some others.). Wire transfers can cost around, on average, $40 on the US end; ACH, using a Bangkok Bank account, $10. Be sure to establish the particulars of implementing money transfers with your US bank before you head to Thailand.

Amounts being deposited shouldn't be a problem. A few years back there was a cap at, I believe, $20,000. But that's been lifted.

I have a single entry nonimmigrant retirment visa from Thai Embassy Los Angeles, Its good until next July.

Sounds like you've been stamped-in to Thailand for one year, since single entry Non Imm visas, to include O-A "retirement visas," are only good for three months after issue (so, 'good until next July' would not apply to the visa).

And this once again points out that the Consulate in LA is NOT the place to get a Non Imm O-A visa, as they (and, I believe, they alone) emphatically advertise that they will issue O-A visas only as 'single entry.' So, you lose the almost one-year additional 'permitted to stay' advantage of a Non Imm O-A multiple entry visa (discussed ad nauseum on this forum).

Yes, you pay $110 more for the multiple entry visa ($65 vice $175), but if you plan to travel more than once during your first year in Thailand (i.e., during visa validity), that extra $110 equates to the extra 3800 baht needed for an Immigration-issued multiple re-entry permit should you get your visa from LA. And, again, you get nearly another year of 'permitted to stay' with the multiple entry visa.

No, stay away from LA.

But in your example, I don't think an embassy letter would be enough for a subsequent extension - they want to see cash coming into an account in your name (no joint accounts). I'm sure if I'm wrong about this, other members will make the corrections.

I haven't seen the requirement for 'movement' into your Thai bank account for quite sometime (for those using the money-in-the-bank route for extensions). And I've never seen a requirement that money shown in an "income statement" necessarily must move into a Thai bank account.

But, then, I might have missed something along the line.......

Why not have source of pension checks wire them to Bangkok Bank NY using BB address and ABA number with instructions to deposit in account...your account number and name. You have no need to mention account is in Thailand. Bangkok Bank knows which Thailand branch to send funds by the account number. First 3 digits on account number is the branch.

Wired funds between banks located in US use ABA numbers not swift codes and BB has ABA number.

Indeed, why not? Direct deposits in the US are all now ACH transfers, so eliminating a middleman and its additional ACH step should be non-problematic.

From the Bangkok Bank site describing all of this (see HERE):

If you are currently receiving payments such as pensions, annuities or payroll from US government agencies or private organizations, you can arrange for your payments to be directly deposited into your account at Bangkok Bank in Thailand via Bangkok Bank's New York branch instead of receiving United States Treasury or company issued cheques.

Is there any charge to transfer the money from Bangkok Bank NY to the account in Thailand?

$5 fee for transfer amounts of $100.01 - $2,000; $10 for amounts between $2000.01 and $50,000 (see BB NY Fees for complete fee list).

Also, on receiving end, there's a .25% fee, with a minimum of 200bt, and a maximum of 500bt.

As discussed about this subject a few years back -- when entering Thailand, never have your non-Thai passport where it can be seen. This will prevent the incompetent immigration officer from asking to see it, then stamping you in on it. Once that happens, things get rather more complicated, at least if you had intended to long-stay.

With the non-Thai passport out of sight (and, if necessary, told it is not available), the worst that can happen is, confused immigration officer won't stamp the Thai passport, and has to call over a supervisor. Then, hopefully, the chain of incompetence will be broken.

I decided get a bit of cash yesterday so I figured I would do another test using my Fidelity debit card to see if it there is a exchange rate difference between UOB and GSB. I withdrew my money approximately 3 minutes apart.

I checked my Fidelity account online and the exchange rate for both ATM withdrawals was identical at 34.083 and of course, still no fee being charged for either.

Well, you got the IER with your Fidelity card, which is interesting based on the following from the Fidelity site:

Other institutions may assess ATM fees for use of ATMs in their network. mySmart Cash AccountSM customers or Fidelity accounts coded Premium, Private Client Group, or held by customers with householded annual trading activity of 120 or more stock, bond or options trades, will be reimbursed for ATM fees charged by other institutions. Please review your Customer Agreement for specific information on reimbursement caps or limits. For each foreign transaction, Visa charges a foreign transaction fee of 1%, which will be included in the amount charged to your account.

As you were not charged the 1% foreign transaction fee, what kind of account do you have with Fidelity? From the above, it sounds like, even if you're doing mucho trades via Fidelity -- and thus a premium customer, you're still to pay the 1% foreign transaction fee.

They don't add that 1% a couple days later, do they?

In my case it would actually serve me better if they went away since then the DC embassy would then have jurisdiction over my application and they have indicated before that they would be happy to issue me a Non Immigration Multi Type O visa which my local consulate will never do. So I say to hel_l with my local consulate and the arrogant people who work there.

There's more to this story than you're letting on -- you're not confusing the LA Consulate (or NY or Chicago) with an honorary consulate, are you? These MFA consulates are the only folks who jealously guard their jurisdictions -- never the honorary consulates.

Honorary consulates in the States have, reportedly, always been at least as fair as the MFA Consulates and Embassy, and usually more so. Which honorary consulate are you talking about (if what you're saying is true, we need to hip pocket that info to warn future visa seekers)?

And are you sure the Embassy would issue you an O visa, when the Honorary wouldn't? Sounds like another case of O visa getting confused with an O-A visa -- the latter being what's being issued now by both honorary and MFA/Embassy when retirement eligible. Not an O visa.

it appears that ANYONE can get an E-Trade VISA Debit Card, no matter what your citizenship or where you live in the world by opening an ET BROKERAGE account

Yeah, I've been pondering that option.

wiring funds is the most expensive method of transferring funds

Not always. Amortizing the fixed costs of wiring money over larger amounts, results in a cost that could be less than the cost of using your foreign ATM/Debit card.

Many of us here have cards that pass on the network foreign transaction fee, reportedly, 1%. Comparing using such a card in an ATM machine, that doesn't charge the 150bt, with wiring money that costs $25 front end, 500bt back, here's what we get:

Assume: TT rate of 34bt/USD (the rate you get when you wire transfer) -- and an Interbank Exchange Rate (IER) of 34.12 (the rate you get -- before fees -- with an ATM/Debit transaction).

You wire $6500. In Thailand, that becomes, after they subtract the arrival fee of 500bt, 220,500 bt. The effective rate you received is: [220,500 divided by (6500 + 25)] = 33.793.

Use your ATM card that charges you the 1% foreign transaction fee, you get an effective rate of 33.779 (34.12 x .99). So, in this scenario, wiring money is cheaper than using your foreign ATM plastic, even in a machine that doesn't charge 150bt (the breakeven point was about $6100). And, of course, since we're dealing with fixed fees, the more you send, the less your cost rate becomes.

If you've got one of those completely fee-free cards we've discussed, like E*Trade or Schwab, you can never beat it with a wire transfer -- as long as you don't have to pay the 150bt ATM owner fee. But if the latter is not true, you can still beat it with a wire transfer, albeit in the 5-figure category.

Of course, wiring large sums brings in two risks: exchange rate and opportunity cost.

Unless you really know where the baht is headed, it's kinda hard to play the forex game. When you send money, you roll the dice -- and things probably will just end up equal over time (with apologies to those who wired money in early 1997 .

Opportunity cost. Well, unless you're keeping tons of money in a home checking account (dumb), you'll be giving up interest for a lower interest in your Thai savings account. However, last check on my money market accounts in the US, that ain't much of an opportunity cost these days.

And for those who need 800k in the bank ever year come extension renewal time, wiring money may be a necessity. So, 3 months before renewal, you send a wad that will square with Immigration 3 months later. Such a large sum will, as previously mentioned, bring the cost of obtaining spending money in Thailand way down -- trumping those 1% cards (even more so, if their effective rate turns out to be more than their reported 1%, a situation discussed back in this thread).

And, if you're a Yank, you can now go ACH and plug in $10 where I used $25 in my example, above, for a SWIFT transfer. Even mo' better.

So, wiring money (or, better yet, ACHing) is still a valid option -- and far from the most expensive option, particularly when large numbers are involved.

The initial rate allocated on 23 June was 55.42 and the 'actual' rate when debited on 30 June was 55.755. IF Nationwide/VISA applied the 0.84% charge (= 168 Baht) through the exchange rate then they would have had to work off a headline rate of 56.22 for the day i.e. 20,168 @ 56.22 = GBP 358.71

The X-Rate.com rate for June 30th was 56.496.... Maybe you paid more than .84%?

On June 3, you got a 34.06 rate at GSB (10K baht for $293.57). The X-Rates average IER for that day was 34.045, so that's a good deal and makes sense.....I'm assuming, then, BofI is showing you what they saved you by BofI covering the VISA fee instead of them being deducted from your funds, and thus giving you pretty much the full exchange rate on your withdrawals.

Good analysis, JC. Looks like a "non-add" column.

But (scratch, scratch), did we conclude anything on what those "ATM service charge reversal" numbers represent? It makes more sense, to me at least, that they do represent all network/issuing bank fees that otherwise would have been charged. That it comes out to about 1.3% doesn't surprise me, as that's what USAA charges me (or at least used to, before I started ACH transfers), while still mumbling they only charged the 1% Cirrus foreign transaction fee. They never could explain why my spreadsheet said I was being charged 1.3%.

And, of course, another reason why it doesn't look like an owner's ATM fee is, as JC points out, GSB ain't charging no ATM fee.

No fee from Nationwide (0.84%) and the rate was concluded at 55.755.

Chiamai, how do you know there was no .84% charge? Does the .84% show up on your Nationwide account history when you do an ATM transaction -- but did not with the over-the-counter equivalent? It just seems a stretch that Nationwide would charge .84% for ATM pin transactions, and .84% for signature transactions (when you use the card like a credit card), but wouldn't charge for buying cash over the counter.........

Nevertheless, the TT rates for the week of June 23rd would seem to support that the rate you got did not include anything approaching .84%.

This over-the-counter stuff certainly has potential. But the numbers are all over the place, so it's hard to see which banks are giving the good deals.

Hopefully, with pioneers like Chaimai, it will all eventually all sort out.

Presumably, you're applying for Social Security Retirement benefits. If you're applying for Social Security Disability Insurance benefits, you've got a lot more hoops to jump through, as I recall.

You're missing another point that has been covered here -- Transferring funds via any means other than a direct ATM withdrawal from a foreign account will cost you a considerable fee ( in addition to the 20bt local fee ), and this thread has been about avoiding those fees.

No, ST, it's been shown that transferring funds to your Thai bank account can beat using a foreign ATM card in all situations -- except where the foreign ATM card is completely fee-free (most aren't), and either reimburses the 150bt fee (as I recall only E*Trade has been shown to do this) or is used in an ATM machine not charging the 150bt (inconvenient for us country dwellers).

But, as this thread has become a circle jerk, I can see why you might have missed that post.

Sunday's Washington Post had an interesting article on bank fees -- and why they are necessarily (lousy economy) going up. Just recently, Citibank raised their fees for "foreign" (non-Citibank) ATM transactions from $2 to $3. Other banks to follow. I guess they're trying to stave off going under, as five more banks did just this past week in North Carolina.

The most egregious 'new fee' angle reported was, allowing overdrawing your account for debit or ATM transactions, then charging a horrendous 'overdraw' fine. Historically, when you slid your ATM/Debit card and didn't have enough in your account to cover, the transaction would be voided. Now, banks loan you the overdraft amount (within limits), then gouge you with a stiff fine. This is proving to be a real cash cow, says the Washington Post.

So, I guess we can expect these annoying bank fees to continue, and additional ones to crop up. Kinda like the airlines in the US adding fees for checked bags. And since they're all jumping in the feeding trough, where do you turn? Maybe, when the economy heads north, competition will return and fees will disappear -- unless the government owns everything by then.

Competition may yet turn the 150bt fees in Thailand -- yeah, right.

Although I hate BofA they have a low xfer fee of $3.00. Then BB in NYC (the 'intermediate' bank) charges a flat-fee of $5.00. Bangkok Bank in Thailand charges the standard Thai bank fee of .25% of the amount transferred with a minimum charge of 200 baht and a maximum charge of 500 baht.

This is an ACH transfer, and works just like transferring money between two domestic US accounts. Usually easy to set up on-line with most modern financial institutions, where they ask for the ABA number (the bank or financial institution's 'address'), and your account number. In this case, you use Bangkok Bank New York's ABA number (legitimate, because it's domestically located), and your Bangkok Bank in Thailand account number (or a 3rd party number, if your bank allows). You can only send one-way -- to Thailand. Trying to 'pull' from Thailand will get you a 'tilt,' and possibly close you down.

BofA, and some others, charge for ACH transfers (because they have to pay a middleman, which also slows transfers down). Most other banks don't charge. The BB NY fees vary. Zero for $50 or less; $3.00 for $51-$100; $5.00 for $101-$2000; and $10 for $2001-$50000. And, as the quote above says, there is a .25% charge on the Thai side (same as you would get with a wire transfer).

Sending $8000 via ACH will cost about .3% off the TT rate. As discussed on another thread, this will be about the best deal you can get for keeping yourself supplied with baht, unless you have a completely fee-free ATM card (like E*Trade) that reimburses any 150bt ATM owner's fee.

For details on the ACH transfers to BB NY see HERE

That link also discusses sending to 3rd party accounts, as follows:

In case you want to transfer funds into a third party account, you must use the internet banking service of banks in the United States which allow the remitter to specify the beneficiary's name. Otherwise, the payment instruction Bangkok Bank receives may not carry the correct beneficiary name and Bangkok Bank will have to return funds to the remitter.

Whether you could further designate a non-Bangkok Bank account number along with the 3rd party name (or your name), I don't know. Maybe that's how Chocolate (above), who used JP Morgan, was able to accomplish his transfer........(?).

Setting up ACH transfer service with your bank may require you to use their 'bill pay' service.

Bank of America has been problematic over the years with their ACH service via BB NY. This was because their middleman for ACH transfers didn't like the aspect of having an ACH international connection (even tho restricted to 'push' only). This apparently is no longer a problem. However, there is a new problem I read about, and this involves a new security gig, whereby over certain amounts via ACH require you to authenticate -- and this authentication code is sent via SMS! A lot of good that does if you're in Thailand! However, for $19.95 you can buy a card with a row or two of one-time cross out codes. Anyway, more about this on their website.

Oh, ACH transfers take about two business days, slightly longer than for the more expensive SWIFT wire transfers. For those institutions with middlemen, like B of A, the transfer time can be 3-4 days.

She told me that besides Bangkok Bank, NY, I could transfer money from my US account through JP Morgan Chase Bank, NY (SWIFT : CHASUS33/ Fed ABA Number 021000021/ CHIPS MBR 002) So last time I sent my money thru JP Morgan, NY

Interesting. Was this set up as an ACH transfer from your US account to JP Morgan? How did they know your Bangkok Bank account number in Thailand?

Curious, because setting up an ACH transfer to Bangkok Bank that mimics a routine US domestic ACH transfer has just the ABA number of Bangkok Bank NY, followed by your Bangkok Bank account number in Thailand. Looks -- and works -- just like a domestic ACH transfer (except it can only be a 'push' to Thailand, not a 'pull'). In your case with JP Morgan, the "CHIPS MBR 002" you mention is where your Bangkok Bank account number should be.....(?).

For me, it's as much a matter of principle as it is saving 5400 Baht per year

Ok. I guess I'm not much on principles, if the tradeoff involves abandoning my nearby bank for the inconvenience of having my ATM card eaten by an ATM machine, in a faraway mall, that doesn't charge 150bt.

But, I actually didn't have to even consider the 'principle' thing. This thread got me off my fat arse to do some number thumping. I found that my card's "we only charge the 1% Cirrus foreign transaction fee" wasn't such a great deal after all. Plus, it turned out, they were actually charging about 1.3% off the TT rate (they can't explain this). But an ACH transfer to my Bangkok Bank account costs only .3% (sending $8000). For what I spend in Thailand annually, that's over $300 in savings. Real money I'd been losing, 'cause I was too lazy to run the numbers.... So, now, I don't even have to consider the 150bt conundrum......

As JChandler points out, the absolutely best deal is a fee-free card that DOES reimburse the 150bt. But so far, E*Trade is the only 'definite' I've seen in this category. Hopefully we'll see others surface, as these cards are definitely the way to go -- if you like using your local bank -- and don't have any principles.

Has anyone reported yet whether or not Nationwide is reimbursing the 150bt? Maybe I've missed it..... But if they're not, and because of the 300GBP transaction limit, even the fee-free Cash Card could be costing nearly 1% per transaction. I don't know if jolly 'ole England has something equivalent of an ACH transfer, but even if not, a SWIFT wire above a certain amount would turn out superior. Yeah, there are other factors with this, like lost interest and Forex risk. But, running the numbers might be worth it -- as I found out, after losing money for several years that I didn't even realize was happening.

Serious? Will I get lousy rates?

Yep. Credit card cash advances should only be used in emergencies. First off, Citibank will charge you a 5% cash advance fee. Next, the clock on 18% interest kicks in immediately. Then, whatever network Citibank rides (Visa or MasterCard) will charge a 1% foreign transaction fee. Then, on the Thai side, these folks will want their share of your assets. So expect a hefty fee here as well. These will differ between booths and banks, with the former usually charging more.

You won't need your pin number, as this will be a signature transaction.

Also, your cash advance maximum may differ from your overall credit limit, so check that out if you're really seriously considering going this route.

What you're missing is that E*Trade IS reimbursing the 150 baht Thai ATM charges, immediately, and without the need for request by the customer. So, you don't need to be subtracting the $4.xx per transaction and reducing the effective exchange rate from ATM transactions, in that kind of example.

Good point, JC. I knew I'd probably drop one juggling pin in that overall analysis.

As you say, it would be nice to see how the other fee-free card issuers are handling the 150bt charge.

Is going long distances to avoid 150bt really worth it? Probably not. And not just because of the time, transportation cost, and convenience factor.

My big fear with ATM machines is not getting soaked by a fee -- but having my card "eaten" -- or, as in Vagabond's experience, not having my money come out. That is why I never use an ATM machine in a mall, airport -- or a strange bank (unless I'm traveling.)

So, I use my local bank (Bangkok Bank), in a small town -- where I know most of the bank staff -- and only during business hours. And I draw out max --25000bt -- (or a second 25000, if needed), then take the money home and put it in a locked drawer to be doled out as required (let's not revisit the "I don't trust my relatives; I don't like to carry large sums of money" argument. We've gone there before, and nobody was home). And, if the card is 'eaten,' or money doesn't appear in full, I go grab my buddy, the ever-friendly and helpful manager.

This is what I do -- and until a few moments ago, I figured I was paying a few baht for the privilege, when compared to obtaining an E*Trade card and paying a 150bt ATM service fee.

Nope.

Example: If I had a completely fee-free card, like E*Trade or Schwab, and, say, the TT rate was an even 34 baht, I'd probably get about a 34.10 exchange rate with that card. So, using 34.10, if I draw out 25000 baht, the dollar cost would be $733.14. Ah, but if there's a 150bt ATM fee, that adds another $4.40 (150/34.10) to my bill. So, total bill: $737.54. Thus, the effective exchange rate I receive is 33.90.

But I don't have a completely fee-free card. Instead, I ACH money to Thailand through Bangkok Bank New York. Usually in increments of $8000. So, if I send $8000, BB NY deducts $10 -- so only $7995 is actually sent. And I get the TT rate (which I established above at 34). So, 7995 x 34 = 271,830. But BB in Thailand subtracts 500bt, so only 271,330bt shows up in my account. Lemme see. 271,330/$8000 equals an exchange rate of 33.92. Hey, that's slightly better than using an E*Trade card at an ATM machine that charges 150bt.

Point: Using your Thai ATM card to draw money that is sent in cheaply ($10 for Yanks using ACH) will come out about the same as using the best foreign fee-free ATM card, and paying the 150bt.

Yes, if you had one of those fee-free cards, you could chase all over town for an ATM machine that doesn't charge 150bt. But, in my case, not going into the city, and wasting time and gas, is well-worth 150bt for the convenience, economics, and safety of using my local bank, with a local ATM card.

And for the majority of us who don't have a fee-free card (paying 1%, .84%, whatever) the argument is even more compelling. Using the numbers in my example above, you'd come out money ahead, not just breaking even.

Using your local bank makes sense from several perspectives -- even if they charge 150bt on foreign ATM cards.

Yes, half a Baht difference between VISA and CIRRUS. I have always been happy with the rate applied by VISA and it is only now that I have a CIRRUS comparison. It is VISA that have always charged Nationwide and only now are Nationwide passing that charge onto the customer.

The difference between the Cirrus cash card and Visa flex card is, of course, the .84% Visa charge that Nationwide recently decided to pass on. MasterCard/Cirrus is also most certainly charging Nationwide to ride their network -- but for some reason, Nationwide has decided not to pass this fee on to its customers. Perhaps they were afraid ATM-only cash card customers were more sensitive to fees than those holding the more flexible Visa ATM/Debit card..... But, since they've decided NOT to further raise the fee to 1%, maybe there was more sensitivity there than they projected -- and customers are bailing.

I got 10000baht costing ?180.78 so that gives 55.32 and Ayudhay TT showed 55.91 and BB TT 55.85 at that time, so I got charged something somewhere as what I get to TT Rate has in the past been quite close.

Welcome to the world of .84% passed-on fees.