JimGant

I currently have Fidelity and Schwab debit cards that reimburses all my fees (except the visa fee).

I thought we'd determined that Schwab *did* reimburse the Visa foreign transaction fee..... My memory has it as one of three good guys (in the US), along with E*Trade and Capitol One.

Maybe you need to be in one of their 'high roller' categories for this privilege(?).

Welcome home, Chaimai.

I am back in Thailand next week, I may try simultaneous over the counter withdrawals, at Kasikorn, with VISA debit card and CIRRUS Cash Card (all without the aid of a safety net smile.gif)

I withdrew 10000 baht with my Nationwide from a UOB atm on sunday and also got 55.38.

Unfortunately, trying to find a Sunday rate is difficult. But it does seem a little strange you didn't do better, as that assumes the rate dipped down to 55.85 on Sunday -- from 56.17 on Friday. And back to 56.18 on Monday.

But, since we believe UOB is not charging an owner's fee -- and since Nationwide Debit card is, for now, charging .84% -- it would seem that the wholesale rate that Visa got on Sunday was, indeed, 55.85.

Anyway, trying to nail down rates is akin to jello. Even doing a counter operation -- then doing something similar with the same bank's ATM -- could be misleading, even when you factor out the 150bt ATM fee. Why? Because ATM/pin operations use a same-day exchange rate, while signature operations (credit, off-line debit, and counter) wait a day or so before using the exchange rate in effect when processed.

So, solving the counter vs. ATM question might be difficult. So far, the only really bad deal I've seen here is with SCB -- where their counter operations use the DCC rate, advertised quite freely on their website. Yes, you can get up to 200,000bt -- if you're willing to pay about a 3.5% add-on fee. I guess, for some folks in a hurry, with large needs, this might be ok.

Jim I checked today (Monday) with Nationwide about last Friday's withdrawal of Baht 50,000. The rate I received was 55.383 to the Pound and no charges anywhere

Well, the X-Rate.com rates for Friday and Monday were 56.17.and 56.18, respectively. So, whether or not your transaction went through same-day, or on Monday (as would be the case with most signature transactions), either number will do to figure your cost.

Nationwide charges .84%, so you should expect to get an exchange rate of 55.71 (56.18*.9916). However, you got 55.383, which represents about an added .5% cost. Whether or not this is representative of some sort of fixed fee (it approximates 250bt for a 50000 withdrawal), or a percentage fee, is not clear. But, compared to someone who used his Nationwide Debit card in an ATM machine recently (a machine that didn't charge the 150bt fee)....

12 Jun 2009 Cash Bay/Big C Chiangrai CHIANGRAI. 15,000.00THB at 55.498. £270.28

....you're paying more for over-counter transactions.

(the X-Rate.com rate for 12 Jun was 55.95)

Thus, a 34.42 rate for Thai ATM withdrawals seems unlikely.

Actually, completely impossible. Even with the best cards -- E*Trade, Schwab, and a few others -- he couldn't have done better than 34.15. And, there are no reward cards for ATM/Debit cards used in the pin mode.

The rate I quoted was the actual rate I got. I don't care what whatever website says the going rate is. To figure the rate, take the baht withdrawn, and divide by the rate I quoted, and you get the exact dollar amount I withdrew. Another way is to take the dollar amount withdrawn, and multiply by the rate I quoted. Very simple.

Barry

First of all, you're never given "the rate I was quoted." Yes, you can read the rates advertised by the bank whose ATM you're using. But unless it's DCC where talking about, which we're not, those rates have absolutely nothing in common with the actual rate you'll get, based on Cirrus or Visa network, your issuing bank, and the handshakes between the two. And even if you ask your issuing bank what the rate is, they won't be able to tell you with any real confidence.

The only way you'll know the rate you actually got (you'll never know ahead of time) is by dividing the baht you received at the ATM machine by the dollars they cost. Then, as this thread has hammered home persistently, if the rate you're getting approximates the TT rate, you're doing good -- but you are paying some slight fees. If it's at or very near the IER, your fees, if any, are being reimbursed -- and you're doing the best that you can.

Go back and divide the baht by the dollars they cost, Barry. You couldn't have gotten a 34.42 exchange rate any day this month, so you must have made a boo boo.

As has been mentioned previously here in this thread, a strict reading of E*Trade's ATM fee refunds policy does not suggest that they'll do foreign bank fee refunds. But as long as they're doing it, policy or not, I'm not complaining.

JC, good to see E*Trade is reimbursing fees charged in baht. A recent conversation with USAA Federal Savings Bank advised me that they no longer reimburse ATM fees charged outside the US. They mumbled something about the conversion from xx to dollars being difficult. Obviously BS, based on your E*Trade example.

Another interesting tidbit in my conversation with USAA: I asked whether or not ATM forex rates were real-time? They said no (I was speaking to a supervisor), but unlike delayed credit card exchange rates, they are definitely same-day rates. When I asked what was the current exchange rate being used by Cirrus, they gave me a rate that coincided exactly (to the the fourth decimal point) with the X-Rate.com rate. That was a surprise.

Well, X-Rate does say they pick between the major wholesale rate makers. Maybe they -- and Cirrus -- were on the same frequency that day. Anyway, X-Rate.com has additional credence with me when now looking for the 'real' IER.

Another aspect to consider...... (from the June 20th Washington Post):

As the debate on overhauling the nation's health-care system exploded into partisan squabbling this week, virtually everyone still agreed on one point: There are not enough primary-care doctors to meet current needs, and providing health insurance to 46 million more people would threaten to overwhelm the system.....Washington has also been training a microscope on the groundbreaking effort in Massachusetts to provide everyone in the state with health insurance: Adding 340,000 people to the rolls of the insured there since 2006 has underscored a shortage of doctors. It takes 63 days on average to get an appointment with a family doctor in Boston, more than twice the wait in Washington, and seven times as long as in Philadelphia and Atlanta, according to a Merritt Hawkins survey.

"If Massachusetts is any guide, with increased access you'd see pent-up demand for health care, and you'd see a lot of frustration with the waiting time to access health care," Phillips said. "It'll swamp the emergency rooms, and those people will be seeking health care in the most expensive settings."

The article goes on to explain that med schools are turning out fewer and fewer primary care physicians, and even with incentives, fixing the shortage is decades away. And that's a shortage *without* including today's 46 million uninsured.

Sounds like a train wreck to me.....

Hope this was more informative than just a rant.

Good info. Many thanks.

Just to clarify -- is having to go to JUSMAG to pick up your reimbursement check standard policy? Or just a product of having exceeded the $3000 cap? I had thought WPS would mail any and all reimbursements to your home address.........

And you opt for dollar reimbursement, to send back to your US bank. But you could opt for baht, right?

After reading your experience, I'm going to do the best I can to keep my cancer in remission .

i had used the atm that day ,i actually got a better rate from the bank ,BKK and was not charged by them.

Thanx for that. Is "BKK" Bangkok Bank? If not, what bank were you dealing with?

samran,

There's a lot of info about fixin' the American health system floating around currenty. The cost -- by the independent Congressional Budget Office (CBO) -- opened a lot of eyes this week, as their estimate came in way ahead of what some had imagined. So, health care reform may yet show up DOA, as did the Clinton attempt.

I applaud Obama in his efforts -- but was disappointed in his speech to the AMA, where he said he wouldn't propose caps on medical malpractice suits. I don't know if the CBO figured that huge cost into their figures, or not -- but they must have. It is just short sighted by Obama to ignore how malpractice premiums severely bloat the cost of medicine.

But, there's another thread on this subject floating around this forum somewhere...so further discussion would be redundant.

I just know Tricare is due for some cost adjustments. And if they are in line with inflation, I have no real argument. It's just the 'catch-up' proposal by some (including flag and general officers, who wanted the savings to buy more F-22s) that annoy -- and worry -- me.

Can I ask why you think this may happen? Am interested why you hold this view - as a non-American.

Obama's quest to bring the 40+million uninsured Americans into the tent -- and the cost of doing so -- is the buzz of American newspapers today. One thing is for sure -- those of us with health insurance will pay more to incorporate the uninsured -- more money, less services, or both.

But Tricare is a separate issue. For many years the costs (e.g., the deductible has been $150 for over a decade) have held steady. Now, the drumbeat is: raise the fees. Even the Pentagon agreed. But, the suggested one-year jump -- almost a total catch-up -- was so huge, Congress put a hold on it. And the scandal of the recent sub-standard service for war-wounded at the Walter Reed Army hospital also helped Congress hold off from adding further insult -- for now.

But, that will all pass. And Tricare premiums and deductibles will certainly go up. But, hopefully, not in the total catch-up mode.

i have a nationwide flex debit card and have in the past used it in the bank with passport and got the same exchange rate as with the A T M

How do you know that? Did you do an ATM transaction at about the same time?

Sorry to sound impertinent, but we've been trying to establish -- on another thread -- just whether or not counter operations are the same as ATM withdrawals at some banks. We've already established that Siam Commercial Bank adds about 3.5% to their counter operations when compared to the rate you'd get with an ATM transaction (excluding the 150bt fixed fee).

So, it would be helpful to mention the bank you're using for these counter transactions, and the rate you got. A quick comparison to that day's TT rate would show just how competitive counter operations are -- at that particular bank, and with that particular card.

I complained to the Tri-care office in Okinawa and their answer was that I am responsible to pay my own medical bills and then seek reimbursment from WPS.

Hmmm. I guess I should expect to pay up-front in many cases. I assume this is the situation with all out-patient visits, as PPA, as spelled out, applies only to over-night stays in hospitals.

Paying up-front would not be a problem, as long as they take plastic. My only real concern would be if they charged more than the allowable Tricare rate. If that happens in the States, by someone who doesn't accept Tricare, you're only liable for 15% over the Tricare rate. I was never really sure how that would ever be enforced -- but for sure, outside the US, you're responsible for whatever they want to charge.

However, since doctor and hospital costs over here are considerably less than in the US, at least in most cases, the chance of overstepping the Tricare rates should be minimal. I hope.......

No way was I having $100/month in Medicare premiums deducted from my SSA check.

As I recall, you have other health insurance -- so paying for Tricare coverage is optional for you.

For some of us, Tricare is our only affordable option. And, in comparison to some of my civilian retired friends, $100/mo premium is quite a good deal.

Sorry if this is repetitive. My searching on "Tricare" kind of hit around the edges, but wasn't very definitive.

Having just hit age 65, and now on Tricare for Life (requiring Medicare B premiums be paid), I wondered about treatment -- and reimbursement -- here in Thailand, as I've never had any medical problems in Thailand. Turns out, some hospitals will accept Tricare, charging you only the 25% co-pay -- based on the Tricare established rates. The following from the JUSMAGTHAI retirees' newsletter:

THAI HOSPITALS WITH PARTIAL PAYMENT ARRANGEMENT: TRICARE entitled military retirees and their family members or survivors as an inpatient [admitted over night] normally pay the bill and then use the DD FORM 2642 to claim their cost share. There are hospitals in Thailand that will assist and inpatient to arrange for a partial payment, a minimum of 25% for covered services, and then the hospital presents its claim to theTRICARE processor Wisconsin Physicians Service. This arrangement requires that the inpatient coordinate FIRST with JUSMAGTHAI’S TRICARE Office. Without the TRICARE Office’s assurance of an inpatient’s current TRICARE eligibility, hospitals in Thailand will not provide this arrangement.

The hospitals are:

BANGKOK: BANGKOK, GENERAL, BANGKOK NURSING HOME, BUMRUNGRAD, PRARAM 9, SAMITIVEJ, & THE HEART BY SIRIRAJ.

CHIANG MAI: CHIANGMAI RAM 1 & MCCORMICK

PHUKET: BANGKOK PHUKET

SUPANBURI: THONBURI-UTHONG

UDON THANI: AKE-UDON INTERNAIONAL

CHONBURI: PHAYTAI SRIRACHA GENERAL

If you want additional information and to corrdinate partial payment arrangements: Tel: 02-287-1036/34 Ext 511 & 512. E-mail: [email protected] & [email protected]. Web: http:www.jusmagthai.com/medial.htm1. Street address; JUSMAGTHAI, TRICARE SERVICES, 7 SO. SATHORN RD. BANGKOK 10120 THAILND.

TIRCARE OFFICE RETIREE CUSTOMER SERVICE HOURS; Starting April 01, 2009, walk-in service will be accepted only on Wednesdays and Thursdays. 0800-1100 and 1300-1500 and Friday 1300-1400. Walk-in service will be limited to 20 minutes. For complicated issues please call or e-mail for an appointment. For urgent or emergent care, contact the TRICARE Office anytime. (Tel: 511 or 512).

For the entire newletter, see here

And, a letter from the JUSMAGTHAI Tricare service rep, with an attached application form, has, in part, the following:

3. We are very stringent about verifying TRICARE eligibility prior to us attempting to negotiate a PPA with a medical provider. For that reason, if you need to make a PPA with a medical care provider under this local TRICARE initiative, we first need a legible copy of the patient’s valid DoD-issued Uniformed Services ID Card (front and back) to verify eligibility through DEERS (Defense Enrollment Eligibility Reporting System). Note: The JUSMAG-THAI Personnel Section performs DEERS verification only during normal duty hours.

4. Once DEERS eligibility is verified, the sponsor/patient must ensure the care provider contacts our office at the earliest possible point in time before patient admission so we can try to negotiate a PPA. Not contacting us in a timely manner before scheduled patient admission results in the patient paying 100% up front. Moreover, if you seek medical care during non-duty hours, you must wait until the next duty day to have your DEERS eligibility verified. Real Case: E.R. patient was admitted on a Saturday and [mistakenly] expected an automatic 25%-75% PPA between TRICARE and the hospital--again, PPAs are NOT automatic! PPAs are negotiated

The full letter is here

The last paragraph begs the question: how do you pre-negotiate a PPA for unknown emergencies? A possible answer was on the Udorn forum, where someone pointed out that, the hospital in Udorn that accepts PPAs will issue a blanket PPA card, pre-negotiated while healthy, for any subsequent admissions.

I would imagine other hospitals, including your choice, might do the same...... That's next on my agenda to check out (I'm in Chiang Mai, where CM Ram 1 and McCormick are the only hospitals negotiating PPAs).

Another interesting observation is, the hospitals negotiating PPAs agree to accept Tricare rates of reimbursement. These rates, by Stateside standards, are quite low compared to the outrageous price charged by hospitals and doctors. But in Thailand, they may actually be *higher* than the going Thai rate -- and result in added profit for Thai hospitals. Maybe you'd be better of not mentioning Tricare, and paying a lower Thai rate.........

Anyway, I can probably manage to self-insure for the 25% co-pay of the Tricare rate -- plus, there's a cap ($3000?) for out-of-pocket payments.

But, of course, costs for Tricare will go up -- maybe dramatically -- based on the health care changes being discussed in DC.

Chaimai,

That's why I wanted to know which Nationwide card was used -- so I could build-in the appropriate fee to see what exchange rate he received. Pretty much can figure out what he could get at an ATM machine, so if the two match up -- or don't -- will be interesting.

Probably wasn't a cash card, as I doubt he would have gotten 40,000bt. But, who knows....maybe so. Also, the cash card advertises "counter restrictions." Not sure if that means total restriction against counter operations -- or just some(?).

Actually they revised it to £180.18 giving a rate of 55.5.

The X-Rate.com site, which I've found to be nearly right-on with the Interbank Exchange Rates (IER), gave 55.9476 as the June 12th rate. Since Nationwide's Visa Debit card is now charging .84% (up to 1% come July 1st), the 55.5 rate you got was well within the ballpark when compared to the IER.

No charge and the rate was the same as if I had used an ATM.

Which Nationwide card did you use -- the Visa Debit card, Cirrus Cash Card, or their credit card?

Also, how many GBPs did you pay to receive that 40,000 baht?

Thanx.

I checked the statement for last month. I was charged a little less than 1% for what was withdrawn....

Was that an ATM withdrawal against their checking account -- or their savings account?

Yes, you'd still have to sign the slip, but only after a slip comes out of the machine, which won't happen with the POS limit on zero...

I think we're saying the same thing....POS limit set to zero is the same thing as having ATM only. If not, you might be cleaned out.

A few years back, we physically had an ATM card only -- by request. They then replaced it with a new Be1st card -- that automatically came with an authorized amount well above zero. For all the reasons mentioned, we then had them set it to zero.

However you do it, not walking around with a loaded debit card is recommended.

Bangkok Bank's visa debit card is called Be1st. The cardholder can set the point-of-sale (POS) spending limit at zero

Which, as I mentioned (the equivalent of going ATM mode only), will prevent someone from stealing your number, manufacturing a debit card, then hitting your account in the signature mode (no pin), and cleaning you out.

In the case above, if the POS limit is zero, the a transaction attempted at a store will not be authorised. This is never a "credit mode" on a savings account or debit card - the debit card cannot be used in the old "zip zap" style because there are no raised numbers on the card, it is always authorised online in Thailand and will check back to the limit that is set against your card at the bank. Therefore it is not possible to overdraw the account or create a credit line....

.....but it is possible, using the signature mode, to clean out your account. And, yes, debit cards used in the "credit" mode never ever establish a credit line. They just use the mechanics of credit transactions to tap the money in their established account.

So, if you want to go "ATM mode only," and BB gets confused, tell them, as aurelius says, "set the POS spending limit to zero."

I disagree with the above. Had a debit card with a Australian Credit Union. Someone in the UK charged over $7,000 in a little over one month. Reported it to the credit union, sent a sworn statement it wasn't us and it was replaced into the account in a very short time.

Yes, in the West, fraud with debit cards is now nearly as "fixable" as with credit cards. Unfortunately, there is the gap with your empty checking account -- should you be slow to detect fraud -- that may cause all kinds of problems with bounced checks, or returned direct debits. With a credit card, that you pay in full every cycle (using an automatic direct debit with your bank account, so you never forget....), you're in the exact same boat as having a debit card -- except you'll never be (even if temporarily) cleaned out; you'll (heaven forbid) have the option to 'borrow' in emergencies; and you might just be getting reward points as a bonus.

And in Thailand, I've seen horror stories with debit card fraud. This ain't the West, and there have been situations -- documented here on TV -- where the cardholder has been cleaned out, shunted aside for months, then, finally, only gets 50% back. You would think, since these Thai debit cards are Visa or MC logoed, that these big companies would step in. Nope. Their hands are apparently tied to some degree.

We demanded with Bangkok Bank that our plastic with them only be ATM --no ATM/Debit combo. Why? A debit card can automatically be turned into a "credit" card when used in the signature (or off-line) mode. No pin required. So, if someone gets your ATM/Debit card number -- using one of all the various ways reported -- he next only has to use it in the credit mode (again, no pin required) to clean you out. Nope, if someone gets our ATM number, it won't be useable in the signature/credit mode.

Credit cards are superior for protection from fraud. Combo ATM/Debit cards are the worst.

Even though you avoided the 150 Baht fee by using Ayudyha, if they gave you the DCC exchange rate, you unwittingly paid a "hidden fee" that could be much higher than the 150 Baht fee-- due to an inferior exchange rate compared to what's available at other ATMs.

I believe he said he was using a Visa debit card, which is not subject to DCC at Bank of Ayudhaya.

Also, I don't have the patience to sort thru all these pages -- but is it the Brits not being charged the 150bt at Bank of Ayudhaya -- but all others being charged? I don't recall seeing that stated anywhere -- but does the data suggest this?

I regularly compare the exchange rates to what I see online when I immediately get home, and this is on the low side compared to what I was getting at Kasikorn before they added the fee.

Well, of course, the dollar has taken a dive since Kasikorn added their fee. And, assuming your 33.8 rate includes the 150bt fee, the before-fee rate was 33.97. In comparison with the IER, your card is charging about 1%, which most cards charge to recoup the network's foreign transaction fee. If that's all you're being hit with by your card's issuer, you're doing better than many.

Keeping a spreadsheet of all your ATM transactions -- and showing the spread from the IER and TT rates -- will give you an idea of your card's charges -- and show sudden changes that might indicate the issuer is adding a 'sneaky' fee.

Any idea of how you were doing in relation to the TT rate before your latest "33.8" transaction?

Denver tightened up a few years ago. The following quote is from Denver:

We are trying to tell customers who are trying to obtain a visa, to go to their

nearest consulate within the state they reside in. We will accept travelers

who are within the state of Colorado or neighboring cities who do not have a

consulate in their area.

We are trying to make customers understand that we will not be issuing

visas as easily as we had in the past due to the changes that have taken

place since October 2006. We are trying to follow the rules the best we can

per the Thai Embassy.

We do not want customers misinformed that we can issue ANY TYPE of visa

easily if requested or we will take applications from those who

reside outside our area. We will try to ask the customer to provide as

much documentation as possible pertaining to the type of visa applied for.

Also, the following link from a year ago has some pertinent info on honorary consulates in the States. In it, Alabama comes across as multi Non Imm O friendly for retirement eligible:

US Honorary Consulate Info