JimGant

Could you elaborate on why you recommend against LA please?

Their website -- and postings here -- show they only issue single entry Non Imm O-A visas. Since the multi entry variety have much more utility, that sucks.

Was that your experience?

5-Jun-09 Cash 200000008/Uobt ATM BANGKOK. 5,000.00THB at 54.716. ( should have been at least 55 )

Well, the rate you got, before the .85% hit, was 55.185, so it was "at least 55." X-trade reports 55.12 as their rate for 5 June.

But, the ATM rate is real time, so it's not likely it would coincide with the once-a-day snapshot rate given on the Visa site (and used for credit transactions, not ATM). And the GBP has been rather active lately, so you could get quite a spread in rates in a single day.

Looks like you hit it right at the top with your 3 June ATM transaction.

According to the Bang-Bank website, the charge on the USA end is US$3 and 200 Baht on the Thai end -- $3.00 + $5.88 = $8.88

Thai charge is 1/4 % with a 200 Baht Minimum or a 500 Baht Maximum.

Yeah, that's right -- about 9% to send $100 ACH thru BB New York. And that's with only the BB New York fee and the BB receiving fee.

But, some banks, like B of America and Chase, add more, by charging to send via ACH -- oftentimes to pay their middleman, who, besides causing an added fee, slows transfer time down by a couple of business days. And if your ACH feature is via a billpay system, this too sometimes adds fees to an ACH transfer.

So, look for a financial institution with NO ACH transfer fees -- and no middlemen. And, besides saving money, you might get your money in 2 business days vice 4.

9% ain't attractive. But with larger amounts, you do ok, particularly when compared to SWIFT transfers. Transfering via ACH $1000 would cost about 1% ($5 + 200bt); $10,000, about .25% ($10 + 500bt) . My bank charges $35 for a SWIFT, so if I wired $10,000, I'd be paying about .5% ($35 +500bt) -- or twice as much as for an ACH transfer. It all adds up.

The site explaining this is here, with the fees link towards the bottom:

ACHing using BB New York

there have been numerous occassions when this atm has not dispensed any cash.

The three cherries didn't line up?

My wife's brother took out 1000 baht on May 26th (according to my USAA online activity). I only see a debit for $34.07.

Craig,

Is that $34.07 still showing -- or has it gone up any since you last checked? With me, I get the initial charge, which is about a 1% fee, same as what you got above (using 34.42 as the Cirrus wholesale rate for that day). Then, about two days later, another .8% is tacked on. The initial and subsequent entries read the same in English (i.e., there's nothing about 'pending' on the initial), but the only difference is the added on charge.

Are you using a savings account ATM card, or a checking account? (mine's a savings).

This will be interesting if you're NOT getting hit with that add-on .8%.... (I always get 25000, but I doubt you're getting a discount for smaller amounts).

And, yes, USAA is tops -- but this .8% really bugs me.

Can't you guys check this information on-line immediately after the transaction

Do you equate "pending" with "immediately?"

Am I an anomaly?

Maybe just not perceptive......

Can't you guys check this information on-line immediately after the transaction, like everybody else can?

These over-the-counter transactions are being treated as "off-line" (non real-time), same as when you use a credit card -- or a debit card in the signature mode.

As such, when you go on the Internet immediately after the transaction, you'll get a "pending" amount. Or what is being "blocked" against any further transactions. Surely you've seen this "pending" line when you've used a signature debit, or credit, card.....? What you actually get in forex won't be known or shown for a couple of days.

Such a transaction needs to be recognized by the network as 'same as ATM transaction,' or the bank will be forced to add fees -- or add a spread -- otherwise selling baht (vs. sweaters, computers, etc) has no profit margin.

Haven't figured out if we're seeing it both ways here, or what......?

Cirrus. US account - Chase Bank.

Ah, I confused you with the Brit you were responding to...

So, you had to pay the DCC spread, plus the 150bt? (plus the Chase fees). Ouch. Or do you have a Visa card riding the Cirrus network? (USAA does it that way).

JC, thanx for the reply. I guess we'll need to let the dust settle before we know what's really going on at the Bank of Ayudhaya.

Relayer's data shows DCC hits you with a 3.5% charge -- even before your issuing bank and network charges kick in. Wow, who'd ever go that route.....

Would really like to see what the Islamic bank is doing about all of this, knowing that usury is akin to eating pork in their world........... Decapitation anyone? Yeah!!

re: example of "DCC hit"

Bank: Ayudhaya

Time: Today (approx. 3pm)

Type of card: "Mastercard" Debit

Market Exchange Rate: 34.11 Baht/ USD

Ayudhaya Exchange Rate: 32.93 Baht/ USD

Fee: none

Thanx, relayer.

So, assuming we ever get to only having a choice between DCC and the 150bt flat fee....

If you only get 4186bt, or less, per trip to the ATM, DCC beats the 150bt flat fee (at the above rates, anyway).

Ain't math fun.

Odd, the Bank of Ayudhya at Century Mall (Victory Mon) has been charging the 150 since last Monday. You would think it would be system wide.

Was that on Nationwide's Cash Card (Cirrus), or their Visa ATM card?

I've gotten a little confused here -- I thought I'd spotted that, because the Cash Card rides MasterCard's Cirrus network, and because it's denominated in GBPs, it will neither be subject to DCC nor to the 150bt fee, which I thought only associated with Visa cards. I.e., the Cash Card neatly falls in a crack at Bank of Ayudhaya, where the machines are programmed to equate Visa with 150bt, MasterCard/Cirrus with DCC, and MasterCard/Cirrus from Britain with a pass.

However, if the card you used was the Cirrus branded Cash Card, then obviously I've missed something.....

That, and in Ayudhya's case, they're also doing Dynamic Currency Conversion (translate as bad exchange rates) on MasterCard logo cards denominated in U.S. $ or Euros. (Not sure how they treat Cirrus cards that aren't MasterCard logo).

So, if you have a Nationwide Cash Card, and use a Bank of Ayudhaya ATM machine, you won't be subject to DCC -- because the card is denominated in GBPs.

Hear Hear. At some level, somebody in Great Britain took a stand against DCC with ATM machines -- as has Visa Worldwide.

But, I'd love to know the actual gouge from a DCC ATM transaction...... JC?

I would think the easiest thing to do is get a re-entry permit (1000bt), so that when you return on 18 June, you'll be stamped back in until 7 Aug. Then, 30 days prior to 7 Aug, begin your extension process, as some Immigration offices won't entertain extension requests until there's only 30 days remaining on your entry permit.

You're supposed to use your local Immigration office

Unless you actually entertain guests in your room, why would you stay in an expensive hotel?

'Cause you can (and those kind of folks don't hang out here )

What I would like to know has anyone tried the ACH transfer going the other way, back to your USA account from Bkk bank?

Not allowed. In fact, if tried, you'll hit problems -- and possible account closures.

Using BB NY, which has an ABA number, allows a "push" from the US, since the originating bank also has an ABA number. Trying it from your account in Thailand (with no ABA number) will, today, probably just get a "can't do." A few years back, it caused all kinds of problems -- and closures.

And most likely, when you set up an ACH transfer option to BB NY, today's system will detect it's a "push" only set-up -- and you'll only have a one way transfer option with your bank's transfer screen.

But, down the road, they are talking about going worldwide with ACH.........

He uses the ATM card in Bangkok and I only pay the 1% Visa/MC fee...USAA reimburses me the fees for up to 10 ATM transactions per month.

I've been with USAA for over 40 years, with no complaints -- except for their advertised ATM charges. I use the ATM card from my USAA savings account -- well, not anymore -- now I ACH the funds, which turns out to save me over 1%.

As you indicate, they advertise that they only pass on the 1% foreign transaction fee charged by the Cirrus network, the network their ATM cards use. However, if you check your account on the Internet, you'll find that immediately after an ATM withdrawal, they charge you what turns out to be a 'holding' rate -- to be followed two days later by an additional .8%. When I asked about that, I got a song and dance about Cirrus adding this rate on. Anyway, when all's said and done, you're paying about 1.6% *more* than the completely fee free cards from Schwab, ETrade, and Capitol One.

I believe USAA is using their own, favorable-to-them, exchange rate -- which they're allowed to do. But it amounts to hidden fees.....And a pox on an otherwise great company.

Check it out. I ran a spreadsheet for months -- and it was always another .8% added a few days later.

Oh, easy to set up with USAA an ACH conduit to Bangkok Bank.

And, yes, they reimburse ATM owner fees, as you mentioned. Have you done this since the 150bt fees went into effect?

JC,

For comparisons, today's Interbank Exchange Rate (the best marker for ATM transactions) was 34.38......and the Bank of Thailand's average "buying TT" rate for the day (NOT a good marker for ATM transactions) was 34.24.

I guess I've got to get one of those no-<deleted> fee-free cards........

And you probably did even better than your numbers show. First off, BOT's rates are a single snapshot for the whole day -- and apparently they take it early AM. For example, on 29 May, the TT rate was 34.24 at 0800 per the SCB site -- the same (never updated) rate posted by the BOT site.

But by 1542hrs, again, according to SCB, the dollar had slid to 34.17 -- 7 satang lower than the opening rate -- and that's where it held. Also, the X-trade site reported their "IER lookalike" as 34.31, probably because their once-a-day snapshot was later in the day. And, this number was also 7satang below the BOT posted rate for IER.

Anyway, assuming you did your ATM run in the afternoon, your actual spread between the rate received and the going TT rate at the time was even better than 8 satang -- which ain't bad -- but a 15 satang spread is much better, and shows your Schwab card is truly golden.

When you wire, or ACH money to Thailand, you get the TT rate -- so, by definition, you'll always do worse than the TT rate -- even if the wire fee were free -- since you'd still have the .25% receive fee on this end. And somewhere on this thread I showed how, with a pure fee-free card, even if you had to pay the 150bt ATM fee, you'd be better off compared to ACHing money (as long as you took out 25000bt at a pop). Point: those fee-free cards that actually *are* fee-free can't be beat. So far, as far as I can recall, only three have surfaced re the US -- E*Trade, Schwab, and Capitol One. Can anyone confirm any others -- Fidelity maybe?

I was simply attempting to point out that, based on the only hard data that I've see posted here so far, a 100,000 Baht transfer per month appears that it "could" result in about 700 Baht hit on the best UK card compared to a favored US card.

The above analysis might explain things.

I've never yet met a Limey who took offense at that term -- but, then, we were all in uniform -- and drunk (after-hours, of course). 'Yank'and 'Limey' seemed highly appropriate terms of endearment (I just wish they could learn to speak English, particularly after several boilermakers )

Ah, nice to hear Longfellow verse amongst all these numbers........

Drawing 15,000 baht at 3.12pm (N/W Cirrus cashcard) and then immediately afterwards another 15,000 baht (N/W Visa Debit card) produced the following GBP exchange rate when I checked my accounts online:

Cirrus cashcard 54.42

Visa debit card 54.39

You got truly good rates, indicating the N/W cards are as advertised -- fee-free (until June 1st, anyway, when the Visa card will begin to charge .84%)

How'd I figure? First, forget trying to find the IER rate that approximates the wholesale rates used by the Visa and MC networks -- you can't. The X-rates' site, as they explain, picks, once a day, a rate from either the IMF, the European Central Bank, the Bank of Canada, or the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. For 26 May, their dart came up with: 54.7512. However, 26 May was hugely volatile for the GBP, as shown here, from TT numbers from the SCB website (nice, because they use time slices) And a once-a-day rate, during large swings, won't hack it:

08:10 54.28

12:35 54.37

14:11 54.22

14:41 54.30

15.34 54.18

So, you swiped your ATM cards at 15:12/15:14 -- pretty close to the 15:34 time slice, thus a TT rate of about 54:18

[This is the closest rate I can find, but I don't know if the actual rate was still going down, as the trend indicates -- and as does the Visa/MC spread of 3 satang. However, overnight the pound soared to 54.64.... Thus, it's really hard to nail it down on such volatile days. Often, a single TT rate will do -- the BOT rate for 26 May was 54.28. Normally, that would suffice. However, as shown, not on 26 May. Best, then, to use the time slices at the SCB site when forex is going nuts]

Anyway, using 54.18 -- you got a 24 and a 21 satang increase over the TT rate. So, based on previous discussion on why using 'satang-over-TT' is a better definer of 'how you're doing' -- in contrast to trying to chase down the best IER -- you done good.

I was referring to the various reports that the Brits don't seem to be able to get the exchange rate deal that the favored US cards receive, compared to the X-Rates reference rate. Based on past reports, that lower rate appears to hold true at AEON also

So, the Brits are getting a lower rate at all the ATM machines, to now include AEON. Must be a conspiracy of the ATMs: "Limey approaching. Reset from the Yank position." Or maybe it's the card.........

I bet the Nationwide Cash Card gets several satang better than the TT rate, same as the best US cards, although riding the Cirrus network might make a slight difference (all the best US cards reported here are Visa) Where the best US cards average 5-20 satang above TT, I would expect the best Brit cards to average 10-25, based on relative exchange rates.

Trying to lasso the real IER is impossible, as there is no official IER site -- and besides, it's constantly moving. The Bank of Thailand site, IMO, gives the best approximation with its "Weighted Interbank Exchange Rate" (whatever 'weighted' means here). But like X Rate, it is a once-in-24-hour's snapshot. At least with the BOT site, you can see at a single glance the satang difference between TT and IER (at least for $USD).

Recently, there are some banks have charged the additional fee 150 baht per transaction on the international credit card with Visa, MasterCard and JCB logo including AEON credit card for cash advance transaction at their ATMs. Please carefully consider the message on ATM screen before proceeding next transaction.

What I find strange about this quotation from AEON is, there is no mention of ATM/Debit cards. They're strictly talking about cash advances with credit cards. Probably just an oversight......

Previously, I was using a U.s. MasterCard logo debit card for most of my ATM cash withdrawals

JC, was that card as fee-free as your Schwab card apparently is? I can't remember, during your journey thru every ATM colony in Bangkok ,ever seeing a comparison of your top Visa card with your top MC card........?

I'd love to know if both networks approximate to the IER identically...... Unfortunately, any difference could mean a 'buried' fee of some sort.... Oh, well.

Also on Exchange rates, your home bank does not determine the exchange rate in Thailand.

No, usually they use the network rate, but they can set their own rate:

although Visa and Mastercard notify the card-issuing bank of the exchange rate to be applied, the bank is not obliged to adhere to it, and may use a more advantageous rate if it feels like doing so.

See this link

If you're implying that the Thai ATM owner is setting his rates, why would he? He's not playing the arbitrage/forex game with his machine, so he doesn't care what rate you, the customer, is getting. The ATM owner will get his 25000bt (or whatever you withdrew), or maybe now, 25150bt, plus the equivalent of 40 or 50 cents. Your dollars are near realtime converted to baht, to end up in the ATM owner's account, using the network rate. If your issuing bank has established his own rate, thus building in an artificial 'buy sell' spread, the ATM owner is not affected -- he still gets reimbursed at the network rate. But you, the card holder, pay more in dollars -- which end up in the banker's pocket -- and which functions as "fees" when you do the math, even tho' the shyster banker says, "hey, we don't have any fees here."

Now, it looks like this artificial 'buy sell' spread is going to work for the ATM owner, in the form of DCC.

But if you do business in the bank lobby, that is where the posted rates take effect -- and where the banker is actively in the "buy sell" routine. That's how he makes money. But I'm sure all the ATM owners are salivating, as they read 'how DCC can work for YOU!' And why Visa is not offering DCC for ATM owners, hoping DCC, if widely implemented, will cause the sound of scissors on plastic -- MC/Cirrus plastic

When checking through what I was charged at my end and what arrived there it was £200 more than the actual live transfer rate.

Something not quite right here....... According to the NatWest website, it should have cost you no more than 20 GBPs to send that amount, plus a few hundred baht at the receiving end.

Are you sure they understood you wanted to send GBPs, and not baht?

Also, what exchange rate did you use in your figuring?

SCB should be able to give you a printout of the transaction, which would be helpful to spot any human errors.

and the exchange rate was exactly the same for the "TT" rate, (the rate you get for an ATM W/D)

If you're getting the TT rate for an ATM withdrawal, you're paying a fee of some sort, as has been discussed ad nauseum.

These are facts.

Yep, dey is. And I'm happy to see you know how to do a wire transfer.....

Somebody's full of it.

My condolences.

I was looking more for an explanation in relation to exchange rates when using an ATM. I was getting excellent rates at the ATM, whereas, if I can recall, the Visa web site during that time was showing the inferior offshore rates. So this does not fit with Jim's and others' statements that ATM rates are set by Visa or MasterCard.

HyperD, there *was* a significant difference between MC and Visa rates, with MC* apparently using the less-advantageous offshore rate, at least for a time. It was Visa that was giving the onshore rate. Here's a quote from a thread from a few years back. Also, the link to that thread:

From the link above for VISA it shows $1 today converts to 34.83 (which is clearly the onshore rate). I have just phoned Mastercard in the States (free phone through Skype - they don't seem to have a web page showing current exchange rates) and their rate today for $1 is 32.64 (which is clearly the OFFSHORE rate).

See the full thread HERE

So, if you had a MC/Cirrus* branded card in those strange dual-rated days, you probably took a hit. The banks' ATM owners had no say over the rate the networks* were giving -- and as I've said, that's the rate they're stuck with due to their contractual relationship to the network (except, MC does allow DCC for ATM owners -- while Visa apparently does not).

* As the linked article explains, issuing banks have the latitude to NOT accept the network's suggested rate, but apply one of their own. But, this is all smoke and mirrors -- as it's the exact same thing as accepting the network's rate -- and adding variable fees to it. However, by setting a less advantageous rate for the cardholder,they can then -- with a straight face and crossed fingers -- advertise that they "charge no fees." Arghhhhh!

And, it's just possible that one or more issuing banks of Visa cards were setting offshore rates. Nothing to prevent this. However, when it came to the network rates, set by MC and Visa, apparently only MC used the less-favorable offshore rate.

But the bottom line remains: It's not the ATM owner setting the rate -- what you get is entirely dependent on the network you ride -- and/or the issuing bank. (Again, we're not talking DCC.)