JimGant

Just to muddy the water a little more:

The following is part of a 3-year old article from the Nation. It is found in its entirety in the Thaivisa archive:

Buying Land in Thailand

Most foreigners who “own” land and houses – as opposed to condos, which can be owned outright – go for a leasehold agreement of typically 30 years, with two prepaid 30-year renewals. The lease will include clauses that automatically allow freehold ownership if the laws of foreign ownership change in the future, and the right to sell and/or transfer the property.

This gives you 90 years with strong backup, making it effectively ownership.

Just to complicate things a little, while you can only lease land, all the buildings – either on the land when it was purchased, or improved or built by you after purchasing the land, are yours freehold. Technically this means that once the lease expires, the owner of the land must purchase the building(s) at an independently and legally valued price, or negotiate another lease period. God knows how that can work.

So, the "two prepaid 30-year renewals" seems to be an option, so I guess some have gone this route (paying the land office 3 times the cost of the initial 30-year lease). Now, why the land office has, in my case, questioned its legality, I don't know. But no one has probably yet to reach the first 30-year anniversary of an initial lease, so it has yet to be tested. Stay tuned, eh?

The part about buildings on your leased land is interesting -- but a little screwy. Does the author mean "either on the land when it was leased, or ... built by you after leasing the land...?" (The author says "purchased," but that doesn't make any sense since the whole gist of this article is the inability of foreigners to 'purchase' land.) Also, nothng about how these buildings are separately titled, if indeed they are(?).

Kinda hard to get a warm comfy feeling with this subject, no?

Ok, so, say he leases it to me, can it be done with a symbolic payment or does it have to show a "real value" payment?

It's symbolic.

Here's our story. A neighbor hired a lawyer to grease the skids for their lease deal. My wife, however, felt she had the wherewithal to deal directly with the land department, having done so earlier with acquisition title transfer. So, off she went to discuss with a land department official the ins and outs of a lease. When she asked him what was a fair lease value (i.e. 30 years' worth of rents), his figure was about 10% of what my neighbor-with-lawyer had arrived at (and our land is bigger!). Anyway, no rent is required to actually change hands -- only a percentage (2 or 5%, I forget which) of this contrived value is paid to the land department. In our case, it was only about 2000 baht (plus a generous tip to the very helpful agent). We didn't add a 30-year renewable clause, as at age 60, I didn't need it (plus, the land official wasn't sure of its legal value anyway).

Now, if there's one lesson we all learn on this forum: a different office or a different official usually means a different outcome. And whether my neighbor's lawyer was a crook -- or just uninformed, I don't know. Or possibly this lawyer's experience with contrived rent values at the land office had been different. So, if you know of a good lawyer who is versed in land deals, hiring such *might* be worth it -- or not.

But the bottom line is, it's easy to do, and it doesn't cost much, particularly for so much value in the peace-of-mind category.

my husband will be aquiring family owned property so we don't have the lease option.

Why don't you have a lease option? If he acquires land -- family owned or otherwise -- he becomes the owner on the chanote and as such, can lease his land to you (or anyone).

our land and house is on my wife's name. in a will she transfers all her possessions to her son with me having the right to live in the house.

I'd get my name on the chanote as a lessee. As it now appears, you're hanging strictly in the good graces of her son, who becomes the landowner upon her death. You have no legal rccourse should he decide to throw you out. A 'wishful will' cannot replace legal reality. A lease, however, *IS* legal reality (for what that's worth in Thailand).

I use a credit union that allows me up to 10 withdrawals a month from any ATM with no ATM fees, but how does one avoid the 1% CURRENCY CONVERSION FEE charged by the card companies (Visa/MasterCard)?

Some have posted on this forum that it can be done, but I'm not sure any bank/credit union 'eats' that 1% they have to pay Visa/Mastercard. At least I haven't found any.

I'm just happy to only pay the 1% with my USAA ATM and USAA credit card. My other bank -- Suntrust -- has started charging -- in addition to $2 per -- 1.5% for international ATM transactions (although they won't admit it, even when I show them the math; they erroneously accuse *this*end of the transaction for the charge). And MBNA Visa recently went the route of most other large banks (Chase, BOA, etc), charging 3% for international credit card purchases. But with USAA's Mastercard, I even get a 1% 'cashback', so my international fee nets out to zero.

But maybe some businesses *do* eat the 1% ATM conversion fee. I think someone on this forum mentioned Bank of the Internet -- but I've not checked it out.

If your hubby has a will, yes you can inherit the land and house. but you have to sell it within one year!

Just to clarify, if your name is on the Chanot as a lessee, you'll be allowed to remain on that land for the remainder of the 30-year lease. And although we haven't clarified the house ownership issue on this thread, my assumption is that anything you've built on your leased land is for your use for the duration of the lease, i.e., a hostile relative can't move in or attempt to tear down 'your' house. In my case, we just checked our Chanote, and the wife had included the wording 'the land and all current and subsequent structures upon' in the lease addendum. She said she did this upon the recommendation of the land official helping her (we didn't use a lawyer). Sounds good to me, whether or not officially codified.......

For those who haven't leased the land your house is upon, I'd suggest you do so soonest, as this is the only avenue available to protect your interests (other than going the Thai corporation shell route). It's easy, not very costly, and having your name on that Chanot should protect your interests in any Thai court (if that becomes necessary). This should be true whether or not your lessor is your wife, companion, or a stranger.

The option to have a clause allowing for a second 30-year lease renewal has been called into question, particularly if the land has been sold during the initial 30-year lease (but where the law requires the new owner to honor the existing lease). For us old farts, this isn't a problem. But for younger types, still alive and kicking after 30 years, a 'hostile' lessor, for whatever reason at the end of the first 30 years, could be problematic. What the answer is, I don't know. Having a renewal clause can't hurt -- but it might not be what it seems when the time comes.

One other recommendation, where the spouse or companion owns the land: Have his/her Will state that should Thai law preclude you from owning the land, that you get to choose to whom title will transfer. This will allow you to choose your current favorite relative at the time -- and not be stuck with the now out-of-favor niece mentioned in the Will.

Notwithstanding all the above, TIT.

then she moves to throw him out.... Thetyim advised this...no lease was in place.a lease would cover the house and the land... yes.

I guess I never saw where Thetyim said no lease was in place.......

My take is that with a lease on the land, and duly recorded, you're pretty much home free. Whatever you want to build on your leased land is yours. Sure, when the lease expires (hopefully, after *you* expire), whatever you have built on the land reverts to the lessor. By then, I won't care.

Anyway, I'm not hearing any reason to worry about getting thrown out of my house on my leased land.

Am I missing something?

The wife of a farang friend died a while back and the land went to the wife's sister. She is currently throwing him out of the house.

Did he have a recorded 30-year lease on the land? If so, I'm confused.....

I've wondered about the difference between land and house ownership. I have a 30-year lease on the land upon which our house is built. This is all nicely recorded at the land office. But I don't have anything saying I own the house, even tho I've been told I *can* own it (but I never thought much about why that might be necessary). I'm not even sure what piece of paper the wife has, and recorded with whom, stipulating ownership of the house (?).

The wife's will says everything that can go to me, will go to me (the current exception, again, is land). So, however the house and related structures are recorded, they should legally be able to go to me without her relatives getting too rambunctious. Right?

So, question is: Shouldn't a 30 year land lease wrap around the house on which it is built? Or should I possibly be looking into recording the house in my name as we speak?

It's important because if it starts at issue I'll have to get off my butt and get over there pronto. I don't plan on making the move until after the first of the year.

If you can spare $75 ($125 vs $50 for a single entry), why not get a multi entry Non Imm 'O?' This will give you one year to get your train to Thailand vice 90 days.

If considering an OA from Denver, communicate with them first. I seem to remember one or two honorary Consulates balked at doing OA's, instead refering you to the Thai Embassy or an MFA Consulate. Can't remember if Denver was one of those. Do remember that Houston was at the top of the list for excellent service re an OA visa.

As you probably know, plenty of info on this forum about OA vs O and extending in Thailand.

They want to see evidence of outbound ticket within 15 days.

When you check in in the States, the airline may also want to see an outbound ticket, as they're responsible for ensuring their passengers are in compliance with destination country immigration rules. This doesn't always happen -- only when your're least prepared.

This trip she will use US pp all the way since we will be incountry less than 30 days, but the whole reason to renew her Thai pp was to allow longer stays in Thailand. She is wondering (as am I) if she will have to follow the same visa rules I will when we retire and start staying longer.

Mr Red,

Just an observation that you may want to file away......

My Thai wife has yet use her Thai passport to enter Thailand (worried like your wife), but instead entered on her US passport, getting a '30-day no visa required' stamp. This was four years ago. During that initial 30 days, she went to Immigration and got a one year extension stamp (and multiple entry stamp) based on being a Thai national (you and I need Non Imms, but all she needed was proof of Thai nationality). This, for 5700 baht, she has renewed every year, as she spends most of her time here. (That 5700 baht says let's try the Thai passport, but so far she hasn't budged.)

Two weeks ago, when leaving the US on United, the check-in agent looked at both our passports to ensure we had visas, since we didn't have return tickets. My Non Imm and her extension stamp did the trick. But if this had been four years ago, when she was coming to Thailand without a visa, this might have been a problem with United had they then been adhering then to the 'return ticket needed if no visa.' Maybe in this case flashing her Thai passport would have done the trick, but I don't know.

My point: When you all finally plan to come here for longer than 30 days, and she plans to get a one-year extension stamp, you might also want to get her a visa too just to preclude any glitches at the airline counter. I guess a single tourist visa would be the cheapest.

Just a heads-up.

To leave the US using another passport is illegal under US law (for holders of US passports) and would not be allowed without her having a departure card in any case.

Does the airline collect the US passport number and report it to the US immigration?

I know that at the United counter, when you check in for an international flight, that they now scan your passport's machine readable page. But don't know if that's just a safeguard for United to check against a list of "funny" passports -- or whether a travel file is being opened with Immigration. If not yet the latter, it's only a matter of time.

My wife has both Thai and US pp, and we were planning to exit/enter US on US pp, enter/exit Thailand on Thai pp. She was nervous, so called the Thai Embassy in Washington. They told her NOT to use two pp, mostly because of the US rules and possible problems re-entereing US.

Here's my take, FWIW:

At some point in the near future (but maybe already here?), all international travellers will be tracked by computer. When you depart a country, a file is opened -- and will remain so until you enter another country, your passport is swiped (or number manually entered), and the file is annotated as having "arrived." When you finally return to your home country, your file is closed out. Thus, every one with a passport can (theoretically) be accounted for. So, using two passports would no doubt flag your file.

I don't think we're there yet. In fact, I don't even recall Don Muang Immigration swiping my passport....? (Maybe the passport number is manually entered later.) So, even tho' my US passport is swiped when I check in at the airline counter in the US, I suspect the US computer currently carries me 'open ended' until the rest of the world catches up technologically -- and until I once again enter the US. If so, then currently entering and leaving Thailand on a Thai passport should not trigger a flag on the US computer (unless maybe a name databank is now in effect....).

Could my wife leave the US on her Thai passport? Most likely, as the airline has no real reason to look for a US visa, which she doesn't have. However, since she would not be entered in the US computer as having departed on her US passport, problems could arrise when she tries to reenter the US at a later date (as the computer wouldn't show her as having left).

As has been said on previous posts, one should be able to talk their way out of any glitch caused by travelling on two passports, since dual citizenship is not illegal. But this could be time-consuming, especially if you get a dodo immigration officer. And I wonder, in this age of identity control, whether specific laws will be enacted to require dual citizens to travel on ONE passport only(?).

But we ain't there yet -- I don't think.

An agent told me to make monthly transfers into my bank book from abroad (normally use a debit card) "simulating" an income for at least 3 months which can then be used in the application.

Firefan,

Are you, then, using your debit card(s) to directly transfer money from abroad to your Thai bank? Sure sounds like it, and this has been a running discussion on this forum for quite awhile........

If so, what's your Thai bank? And what are the procedures, limits, and fees?

Thanx.

My question is - does she has to maintain a Thai visa if we want to leave the country for trips to the U.S. and do they have multiple entry/exit visas for retirement people?

The cheapest way, as samran says, is for her to get a Thai passport (with her Thai ID card, should not be a problem), then use both it and her US passport when travelling.

Now, if she wants to use only her US passport, she can enter Thailand without any visa (by the so-called 30-day visa on arrival), then after arrival, go to Immigration and get a one-year extension of stay based on her Thai nationality. Unlike you, she does NOT need a NonImmigrant visa for her extension. However, like you, she'll pay 1900 baht for the extension and 3800 baht for a multi entry stamp. So, as said, much cheaper the dual passport route.

(My dual citizen wife has gotten her US passport extended now for several years, even tho' she has a Thai passport. She's somewhat paranoid about a situation happening at the airport, which I've tried to explain is nothing to worry about. However, this should change soon -- I hope -- as she *does* understand the value of 5700 baht.)

Thanks for the heads-up, thohts.

Phone/internet fraud using credit cards is a huge problem

Actually, first time I even hear of a credit card with numbers for each purchase and doubt this can be obtained (yet?) in Thailand.

The randomly generated credit card number program has been around for several years, at least at some US banks. MBNA Visa has something called "Shopsafe," where you log in on the Internet to your account, then have Shopsafe generate a random visa card number, where you designate desired expiration date and credit limit. Usually, this would be for a one-time purchase, so amount and expiration date would be accordingly. But if you expect similar future purchases of minor amounts -- or expect maybe a future credit -- you certainly can set up a longer lasting random account. Also generated is a random VVS number (that 3-digit doublecheck number found on the back of your credit card).

All random accounts are transparently rolled into your 'real' visa account -- and show up as one in your monthly billing cycle.

So, if you're like me (maybe unreasonably), and don't like to provide your Visa number and VVS number by mail or Internet, Shopsafe (and similar programs) would seem to add another layer of security. (But just wonder if companies like CX can attune(?).)

Sadly, MBNA is one of the latest credit card issuers to now charge 3% for international purchases, so I now keep it around soley for Internet purchases and its Shopsafe feature. For all else, I use USAA Mastercharge, which still charges only 1% for international purchases -- plus rebates 1% on all purchases. With all the charging we do, mainly for accounting purposes, this is worth a nice tidy $600/year. Credit Unions also have similar deals with their credit cards, so it pays to shop around.

Lop,

Can that bank account be a joint one (in my case, with the wife)?

I plan to use my pension, which is above the minimum requirement, as the requirement filler; thus I won't need a bank account with 800k in it. But since I *do* need to show evidence of a bank account, hopefully the joint one with the wife will do........

Oh, I noticed in one of your posts that you're switching from a 'support' extension to a 'retirement' extension. Any chance of sharing your rationale?

Thanx.

My understanding of Tricare, as it pertains to retired military overseas, is that you pay for services at any Thai hospital up front, then file with Tricare. There is an address on the Tricare website, as I recall, that has the particular address in the States where you send your claims for overseas medical bills.

Under age 65, this would officially be handled under the rules of Tricare Standard ($150 deductible, 25% copay). After age 65, when Tricare For Life takes over, nothing really changes overseas, as it functions same as Tricare Standard, since Medicare doesn't apply overseas they just apply the rules of Tricare Standard. But, you need to be enrolled in Medicare 'B' for this to work.

I haven't needed to do this yet, but I suspect the real trick is having the Thai medical bill sufficiently clear as to what procedure was accomplished (doubt Thai hospitals use Stateside procedure codes, so definitive wording would seem in order). Lacking this, the EOB from Tricare would probably indicate "more info needed," or some such refusal language. Hopefully, the larger institutions -- Bumnumgrad (sp?) probably for sure -- where foreigners are routine customers, have their stuff together.

I believe there's a retiree working out of Jusmaag that specializes in areas like this. Have his name -- in my *other* desk 12 time zones away, however.

Oh, Tricare is pretty cheap on maximums they pay for procedures, at least per my Stateside experience. But I would imagine, since most medical procedures in Thailand are considerably cheaper than Stateside, that this Tricare cap would not apply, at least in most cases.

If you extend your stay you will lose that extension the minute you leave without a re entry permit.

Ok, so you're saying once you get an extension stamp, the multi entry feature of a still-valid visa will no longer work, at least as it pertains to your extended stay.

Good info to know. Many thanks.

Here's the link to the Thai Embassy Washington, visa section:

Thai Consulates

Scroll to the bottom of the page, where there is a list of all the honorary consulates in the US.. Click on any one, and the entire list will be displayed. Email addresses and phone numbers are there. All the consulates, I believe, are good, although there is some variance as to what they might deliver (e.g., Denver apparently won't do an O-A, but most of the others will). You need to check ahead with your particular situation to see if it will fly. If you're married to a Thai and just want a multi entry "O," I think any one will do ( maybe not New Orleans for awhile ).

In my situation, I emailed the consulate, telling them I wanted an "O" visa and what documentation I planned to send. They email replied immediately, confirming my listed documentation was all that was needed -- and attached a copy of their application form (same as Embassy's, but with their particular Consulate stamp) plus some other instructions (who to make out the money order to, etc). They also provided a name and number, should I have further questions, and I used it to confirm desired form of postage (the lady I talked to was super helpful).

Bottom line: these consulates are strictly US staffed (in the US anyway) and are usually just a sideline to some other business where they're co-located. And unlike Thai MFA operations (Wash, LA, Chicago, New York), they use the discretion given them to be *very helpful* -- not empirically obstructionist, as apparently we both found out about the Embassy in Washington.

A lot more info on 'honorary consulates' on this forum. Searching around might provide some more data I forgot to mention. Oh, nothing geographical required, as far as I can tell. You can use any of the honoraries in the States, regardless of where you live in the States (but might be something to mention in your initial email inquiry).

Good luck.

The problem I experienced is that when I applied for a new visa at the Thai embassy back home, one of the immigration officers saw the "overstayed visa" stamps in my passport and refused to issue me a visa, telling me that I was someone who "disregarded the rules in Thailand"!!!

Just one more reason to use an Honorary Consulate. I used the Thai Embassy in DC for years, as it's within driving distance. But I've gotten some quixotic results for my two round trips over there. So last time it was an Honorary. Now I have a short drive to the post office; no lord-of-the-manor BS from MFA personnel; dealt with an 'aw shucks you all' Texan; and 4 days later the postman rang my bell with my visa.

Makes no sense to use an MFA facility -- even if you live right next door.

Lop,

I'm not sure this is self-evident, so I'll ask..........

Assuming you can get a Non Imm Multiple Entry "O," then you enter Thailand and get an extension based on retirement or support, aren't you covered for all subsequent reentries into Thailand that occur *before* the visa's expiration date? Won't they just stamp you into Thailand until the date of your extension's expiration?

Yes, the gap between visa issue date and entry into Thailand date will subtract from the valid reentry period you could get buying a stamp at Immigration. But if this is only a few days or weeks, it would seem to make sense not to put out 3800 baht.

And I can see several reasons why getting a multiple entry vice single entry 'O' could be advantageous, like you don't have your ducks in line for extension during your first 90-day entry. Plus, the reentry feature of the Non Imm Multiple is $75 US -- 800 baht cheaper than the multiple reentry stamp from Immigration.

Fine point, I'm sure. But for newby immigrants to Thailand, with ties still back home, having a reentry permit allowing for quick exits in emergencies would seem prudent. And for those here on their first extension who came in on a Mutiple Entry "O," it would seem they *do* have reentry permission, up to their visa expiration date(?).

(The discussion awhile back on O-A multiple entries seems to suggest this is so.)

What about a Non Immigrant "O-A" visa -- will that allow tax free import of your used household goods?

If not, and I'm reading this right, all Non Imm visa holders that come to Thailand to retire have to pay tax on the used items they have shipped over. What's the tax rate -- and how in the world do the value my used items?

As Lop says, Bangkok Bank charges .0025, but with a minimum of 300 baht, and a maximum of 500 baht. If Kasikorn Bank is charging "2% or at least $25," I'd find another bank.

A few other pointers that have been hammered home here on this forum, but which you might not have seen:

-- Make sure you wire your home currency, to be converted to baht in Thailand. Converting to baht at the wire end will cost you quite a bit in conversion horsepower.

-- Wire large amounts to absorb the fixed fees, thus effectively giving you a better exchange rate.

If you plan to use a farang ATM/Debit Card and/or credit card, make sure you've got the best deals. Most all pass on the 1% Cirrus/Plus network fee charged for foreign transactions. But many credit cards now charge 3% -- and many ATM cards have a fixed per transaction fee (but you can find some that don't, like USAA). Yes, you get a better rate than the TT rate when you use plastic. But when all the charges are added in, your effective rate can really suck.

[The rate you get is the interbank exchange rate. (See: Exchange Rates) If that rate is 40.96, and your credit card charges 3% for foreign purchases, your effective rate becomes 39.73!!)

So, wire large amounts, and use plastic issued by your Thai bank. (Unless, of course, you see another 1997 coming )