onni4me

I feel fashion-able, oh so fashion-able,

I feel fashion-able, fashion-able, and GAY!!!!!

This is a silly thread.

Being fashionable sometimes might be... My mother used to dress me in fashion clothes when I was very young and no-one had similar things to wear. I know from personal experience how it feels to look silly.

Anyway, my original posting was more about the idea that many youngsters seem to show tendencies even if they are not fully committed being gay. "Fashionable" in this regard. I was pondering more like whether this is something in our time that makes people take sexual roles even if they are not sure about themselves. Or is it because everything is more free nowadays and I am the old fart that just can't get it right? Or maybe they just experience because they can?

Donno really...

Eyes wide shut, rather...

I took this chance to share my feeling. Basically we all are sensitive to some level. Some more than the others. I believe I am happy in my relationship and that I will try to enhance it the best I can.

The other stuff I will discuss at some point. Just that it bothered me and I wondered what I actually wanted/gained from this encounter. Not much I guess. Maybe it helps me to set more clear limits. Hope so...

All of this discussion smacks of dysfunctional western christian morality which does not work in the west and certainly will not work in Thailand.

Yes, many things are different from what they used to be and World is much smaller place nowadays what comes to distances between things. One thing, though. Western morals had their place in the social circles of people, sometimes protecting them in times of uncertainty and giving them courage to face the unknown.

There are sort of blurred grey areas where we can never shrug off our culture and its moral heritage, its effect on us. This goes with Thais as well. But now as we are more closer in this new bright World, one might point out that being in Thailand is not that different from other places what comes to experiences. I suppose that Somchai 100+ years ago would have behaved much different from what might come up to his mind in the World of today. There were no television, no karaoke bars, no advertising (at leats in the giant sized ones we see around Bangkok), no flashy lights and no HIV.

I, for one, might try to undertand this World from my experience and use my feeling and understanding of right and wrong even if the concept would be different from the times they were laid before us. If I would choose to ignore totally the wrong and right, what would it leave left? Confusion or sosiopathic tendencies? Would I become split in pixels like an old TV and vanish as a person/personality? I still believe, morals or not, that one has to choose between guidelines. It is a postmodern view that we can be everywhere, every time, with everybody. We might sort of do that with techniqal advantages we have, but that would split our inner self in such chaos that we would seize to exist as a human being.

I have no morals when it comes to other peoples doings but regarding myself...I am quite strict...at least sometimes. I try to learn to let go and enjoy myself - responsively.

Onni:

Not to be harsh, but it wasn't the alcohol that made the decision to have a fling, and it wasn't your partner (or your relationship with him), and it wasn't your 'ape nature,' either- it was you. Whatever else you do, if you're going to write books of advice, you might advise people to take responsibility for their actions. Failure to do that is the beginning of a lot of trouble in people's lives.

Yep. I realize it was me. There were the oppurtunity and the means. However, I don't take it lightly and this was the reason I am doing some soul searching just now.

I am responsible and whatever but there are moments that one is less than some other time. I am more curious to hear if anyone has had moments like this and how they have lived on and what they have thought. I bet there are few.

My friend has two partners, an older Thai and a younger one, all of them gay. My friend has maintained both relationships, and they both know it. But the older one is not very good at sex, and the younger one not good at in depth relationships. Each man seems to each get what he wants.

Happy for them. I was not that much into sex as subject rather the cause for personal misery. I maybe am quite sensitive and the last thing is to make someone suffer. To each their own.

I am quite honest in personal degree and it is hard for me to keep secrets in relationship. However, this is the kind of thing that I will put behind me after adjusting my feeling.

I am happy that some people can share and its not away from me but personally I feel better not sharing my inner side to so many.

I would hope you out there to share some idea how this kind of situation has reflected upon you in the past and what kind of solution you came up with. Or maybe you just left it as it is?

In my homo opinion, I think fidelity is rather silly.

Hmm...maybe yes. I am not actually concerned about sex. That is like putting butter on your sandwich. But what worries me is that I might hurt someone real bad. My bf is clever but in some sense what comes to sex etc. he is quite 'innocent'.

I feel that one major reason for gays not finding long-time partners is the promiscuity. Who wants to speak or confess love to someone that constantly kicks over the fence? It lowers ones self-esteem and what comes to Thais there is the question of face.

And don't ask if there exists something called 'love'. I am a firm believer.

Affairs (from small to large) are quite common in the gay world, world-wide. Seem pretty common in the straight world, too. Maybe the real problem is that this isn't acknowledged as reality and there aren't good social mechanisms to ease transitions between partners.

Hmm...what happened was that I was being unfaithful. So stupid. I have been under a lot of pressure from my work lately and ended up drinking with couple of so called friends and a thing led to another. My bf doesn't drink so he wasn't there.

I really have no intention doing that but obviously drinking may lead to sexual encounters. They might attach a warning label to all those bottles.

Whatever someone might say, it was stupid and I feel really bad. My bf doesn't know and I hope he will never know. The text quote was just something I found since I was thinking it over and wondered how other people might feel. Some seem to take it quite lightly but for me it poses a problem.

Well, things happen. What else I can say. Even if I try to be a person of reason, these things seem to come from more deeper layers of my 'ape' side. Maybe males are not monogamous bu nature even if they have a loving good-hearted partner.

And finally...I hope no-one preaches me about morals. This is a personal issue and as such quite hurtful. Advice and thoughtful words are appreciated.

I made no decision. My business partner of a decade died and I came here on holiday to recover for a Month. Didn't know anything about Thailand and headed to Pattaya which was the only destination that I knew of. I had just the plane tickets and even if I have been around traveling, it was such a shock - although in a positive way. I started to feel alive again after a decade of working with no other purpose than money.

I ran into an encounter that actually still goes on in a form of friendship. Later I started to go around Thailand and now have been to most of the places. Found my bf from internet being on holiday in Finland.

I've been here over 4 years now. I am still not totally convinced that I will stay here forever. The financial problems will hit Thailand quite hard sooner or later and some signs are visible already. The other factor is that I love culture and the stuff here don't quite satisfy my need for finer things in life. I grew up in several places like Spain and Italy and you simply can't compare the cultural output to the one of Thais. Thai culture nowadays seems to consist of American Pie, slapstick comedy, all things fashionable brought here from elsewhere and nationalistic remembrance of "traditional Thai culture" - whatever that is..?

So far Thailand has worked for me quite nicely but I am still young and perhaps I need new challenges. I am 'just' turning 38. I have been looking at options with my bf and we haven't come to an conclusion, yet. He loves his small family and I wonder whether he would be happy in gloomy, cold Finland with very strange people and culture. On the other hand, he has the job that he can easily do everywhere in the World.

So, as Buddhists say...nothing is permanent. The river flows constantly and shapes its form. I wonder if anyone can really 'move' to Thailand. In my point of view Thais make it sometimes quite difficult with all the rules and regulations. I haven't sat in so many offices anywhere in the world with so much paperwork. The other point is that they never consider you a Thai. Not even if you look like one, speak Thai and so on. You will be farang. Your physical body may be in Thailand but it never "moves" there. Unless if not buried that is.

Something happened this week that made me look texts about infidelity. I'll write more on that later. Although, it's about heteros, I believe it applies to gays as well.

One kind of affair I write about in my e-book is called, "My Marriage Made Me Do It."

Here are some signs and patterns you can expect in this kind of affair:

1. Expect that your spouse will have a very powerful attachment to the other person. The other person will consistently be on her mind. Your spouse will shift energy away from you, the children, the household and her career to her affair relationship. She will be focused, but not on you. Your spouse will attempt to push you away by avoiding you, ignoring you, closing off communication or walking away.

2. The affair will most likely be a long-term affair. It will be very difficult for your spouse to walk away from the other person. He may try on a number of occasions but will continue to gravitate back to the other person. He will hold on tenaciously. This is probably the first or only affair for your spouse. Your spouse is not interested in playing or fooling around but powerfully attaching to the other person. The other person is the savior!

3. Don’t believe that the affair was planned before hand because of a bad marriage. These affairs usually just happen. They usually happen with someone in close proximity: co-worker, neighbor, friend (frequently of friends with whom you socialize), etc. The other person is usually the aggressor, your spouse lacking the confidence to seek out the affair. The rationale that it happened because of a lousy marriage comes after the affair is in bloom.

4. The more you try to persuade, convince or pursue, the more strongly he will attach to the other person. He will perceive your efforts as weakness and will want to attach more intently to the other person whom he (at perhaps an unconscious level) deems to be the powerful and loving answer-to-all.

5. Efforts to use moral or religious arguments to call a halt to the affair will be strongly resisted. Your spouse is not guided by rightness or wrongness. These standards have not been internalized and do not carry much weight, especially when it comes to the important chunks of her life. The actions and thoughts of your spouse primarily originate from her need to attach to another person. Any behavior or concept that serves the purpose of maintaining the attachment will be valued. Others are discarded.

6. Expect you will spend a significant amount of time and emotional energy in the next 2 to 4 years (especially if there are children) attempting to resolve the relationship. By resolve, I mean, coming to a point where each of you are fairly free of the emotional entanglement that holds you together and generates the pain and fear. It will be important for you to resolve the relationship whether you continue to be married or separate and divorce.

Does this fit your situation?

Do you see the importance of understanding in-depth the signs of infidelity. Once you do, you will have many more options available that will help you break free.

Dr. Robert Huizenga, The Infidelity Coach, has helped hundreds of couples over the past two decades heal from the agony of extramarital affairs and survive infidelity.

Most public male affection in the world is not homosexual, of course.

Here male affection Russian style!

I hate links so I put it here for more easy-reading. This actually shows my point that people can and should be allowed to be different. We are so many.

A Lifestyle Distinct: The Muxe of Mexico

Katie Orlinsky for The New York Times AT THE DEBUT Carmelo López Bernal, 13, at the recent annual town-wide muxe celebration, the occasion for his first appearance in the identity of a girl.

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Slide Show

In Mexico, Beyond Gay and Straight

http://' target="_blank"> But nowhere are attitudes toward sex and gender quite as elastic as in the far reaches of the southern state of Oaxaca. There, in the indigenous communities around the town of Juchitán, the world is not divided simply into gay and straight. The local Zapotec people have made room for a third category, which they call “muxes” (pronounced MOO-shays) — men who consider themselves women and live in a socially sanctioned netherworld between the two genders.

“Muxe” is a Zapotec word derived from the Spanish “mujer,” or woman; it is reserved for males who, from boyhood, have felt themselves drawn to living as a woman, anticipating roles set out for them by the community.

Anthropologists trace the acceptance of people of mixed gender to pre-Colombian Mexico, pointing to accounts of cross-dressing Aztec priests and Mayan gods who were male and female at the same time. Spanish colonizers wiped out most of those attitudes in the 1500s by forcing conversion to Catholicism. But mixed-gender identities managed to survive in the area around Juchitán, a place so traditional that many people speak ancient Zapotec instead of Spanish.

Not all muxes express their identities the same way. Some dress as women and take hormones to change their bodies. Others favor male clothes. What they share is that the community accepts them; many in it believe that muxes have special intellectual and artistic gifts.

Every November, muxes inundate the town for a grand ball that attracts local men, women and children as well as outsiders. A queen is selected; the mayor crowns her. “I don’t care what people say,” said Sebastian Sarmienta, the boyfriend of a muxe, Ninel Castillejo García. “There are some people who get uncomfortable. I don’t see a problem. What is so bad about it?”

Muxes are found in all walks of life in Juchitán, but most take on traditional female roles — selling in the market, embroidering traditional garments, cooking at home. Some also become sex workers, selling their services to men. .

Acceptance of a child who feels he is a muxe is not unanimous; some parents force such children to fend for themselves. But the far more common sentiment appears to be that of a woman who takes care of her grandson, Carmelo, 13.

“It is how God sent him,” she said.

Katie Orlinsky contributed reporting from Juchitán, Mexico.

I would not say your arguments are unsound, just unsupported. Without being able to understand the reasoning behind them (because you take offense when I ask questions), I can't say whether they are unsound or not. For me, an argument unsupported by reasoning that can be questioned or examined remains unconvincing.

I understand that, from your point of view, even if Dick Cheney (the USA vice president) was very active in campaigning for an amendment to the US constitution that would forever bar Gay people from marrying - and at the same time he maintained a full-time male lover in Virginia - you would find it inappropriate to disclose that "secret" information about his private activities. I understand your point of view - I just don't understand your reasoning.

WOW! You start to sound like Spanish Inquisition, Ferdinand and Isabella would have been proud to have a guy like you on their payroll. BTW, the guys working at that institution of torture and godly virtue, were VERY convinced that they argued on the right side. With logic and all that. I simply try to say that a human being is more than being "gay". We can be different things to other people.

And what comes to this flare about Dick Cheney...you are insulting me. I may like peaceful life but I am not a coward to speak when I feel an urge to do so.

I think this thread is getting to annoy me with all its arguing. I will toss in the towel.

I would assume that the obvious answer is 'NO'. For many reasons like being impotent to others like being so super sensitive that sex would be considered 'dirty' since it would lower the feeling etc. etc.

There has been famous people that we are not sure they were gay or not like Cecil Rhodes. At least the history never suggests them having sex...

Then we have people like Bavarias Ludwig II (Ludwig Friedrich Wilhelm; sometimes rendered as Louis II in English) who indeed had an interesting life. Much more than sex happened and amazingly it didn't seem to bother his folks.

If you give a glimpse at wikipedia looking a list of famous gay people, there are plenty that have accomplished things far beyond being gay of sexual nature.

This second point leads me to notice that you have made an fallacious assumption. You assumed that when one of the E.A.s (Evil Activists) "outs" someone, he says they are "Gay"

I am making unsound arguments here? You really seem to put yourself higher than anyone else. My point may seem super naive or liberal or whatever but actually all kind of activities that don't allow me to live peacefully - bother me. That's why I am never going to "out" anyone - or that is my expectation.

One example I could give from the life of Rene Descartes. He lived a nice peaceful life until he started writing and publishing his own opinions. That's where all trouble started. He came out with the thought that if someone is happy, they should hide their happiness. I myself am not sure why I even bothered to post on this thread. Perhaps I tried to give some idea that we all should live happy lives and not get so bothered by others. Fighting against windmills is something I leave to Don Quijote. I do admire your willingness to question others and make points but on the other hand I believe many are happy and busy whatever they are doing and not eager to live in 24/7 awareness. Sad but that's the way life is.

In my post I merely suggested that people have the ability to change behavior - even the sexual one. I was ones being asked "is my son gay?" by a father that was worried about his sons woman-like behavior. The son was 14 yo. I had been teaching children between 5-16 years and told him that in that age young people try all kinds of roles to see how the 'society' reflects upon them. I told him not to worry. Likewise, I am not sure whether someone could not try 'being gay' couple of times due to uncertainty of sexual self knowledge. At that point 'outing' really might do a lot of harm. Sexuality is the direct way to guilt and as such playing with someones inner being can be even dangerous.

Like all activists you're simply another side of the bigotry coin. Who are you to tell others how to live their lives?

Yep. My feeling exactly.

I believe that most people don't really care who goes out with who. 90% of people I've told shrugged it off in couple of days. 10% became non-friends/acquaintances and that pleasure I am willing to allow them.

As I may have said before, many 'activists' want to place people in boxes (= "out them?") and they don't allow definitions that are sliding to other areas than decided 100% correctly. I would like to point out to them that more philosophical approach could be one accepting paradoxes. That is, to acknowledge, that one thing can be something and at the same point be something quite opposite at the same time.

I myself, would not dare to define gays or any other persons and place them in boxes according to my ideas. That might leave something quite human outside.

This is better than an argument in a pub halfway between Manchester and Birmingham, by two blokes who are more alike than they care to admit, but one prefers pink to lavendar.

I thought that looking at the title of 1st poster, we would have heard juicy stories about 'how did they con me' but apparently there are none...

BTW, what did OP exactly give to this discussion? I mean it was rather general like a tourist point of view looking things through judging eye ware. I have heard so numerous people suggesting me that Thailand is like that or Thailand is like this without having any experience of their own. If one hangs around small pond like Silom, what is there to be expected?

But juicy con stories...? Anyone? I love to hear from other peoples misery.

I have known many wonderful northern rural Thai guys,but never forget that after mama, papa ,nana, grandpa and the family you count yourself somewhere about but probably just below the chickens running around the yard in the so called farm.

Hmm...I believe that is quite unfair. Maybe a dog?

Dogs bark, they do not speak Thai. They might bite, no-one likes that! They shit allover, no way!

I think most problems in life are basically semiotic. Or semantics play a role however we look at it. I am amazed sometimes what kind of couples there exist together. I hardly see any other reason to be together than ... You've guessed it!!! ... and from that, if it's the ONLY reason, nothing good can be expected.

And what comes to people from Isaan. Don't forget that there are many that are not exactly from rice field. Some even have education and goals in life. Like my bf.

Hmm...in my experience Hua Hin is quite a dull place. Suits well for someone not interested in much of action. Been there, seen that. I don't mean that there are no attractions but in general it's easy living with no much to do. You can walk around the places of interest in one day.

In my mind Hua Hin is a smaller version of Pattaya. The prices of food etc. are quite high and there are few establishments where one can relax just by spending time.

Good luck with your efforts. I don't know you so I don't know whether you will like it there or not.

I had three Asian boyfriends in Houston. One, a Vietnamese, was a stealth money boy, spoilt but cute. Being Asian made no difference as to his wiles. I agree many Thais have been taken advantage of by farang men here. Especially by the farang dying penniless!

That's funny, the only guy who's ever really tried to rob me like that was a Vietnamese guy I met in Dallas - wonder if its the same guy?

Anyway, if I don't die penniless having had all my money steathily diverted to building houses and buying buffalo in the Shan state I'll be very disappointed

My first real gay relationship was with white guy. We studied together at the university. It took 2 years to realize that he was a cheat to the max. One nice day, after loaning money from me, he took off to Prague to live with a woman. As this happened, I was devastated. It took years to get over it. And can you imagine...when he was through with his GF in Prague, he had the cheek to come to ask whether we could be together again !!!

It is really no question of Thais or Asians or anyone. It is the personality.

Moral and Ethical Compass of Non Native Residents

I might get upset since you forgot to mention all kind of minorities. Boxes for all...

What, if any, has ethics or moral to do with non native residents? Isn't it all the same where you drag your butt around? You drag your thoughts and everything else along with it.

All of your examples were extremely negative by nature like no good qualities could be found. F.e. if you point that there is someone Thai suggest being scrooge or 'kin jau', that in my mind does not suggest that the person in question is one. Thais, in my experience, normally don't have any money so when they get their hands around it, they spend it. It's fun spending, do you agree? I, for one, like to think of tomorrow and the fact that I need to plan my finances to match my bills. Thais don't necessarily need to since they can find their cup of rice from the table of extended family, I can't. They are used to living without any means, I am not. So, from Thai perspective I might seem like a 'kin jau' person without being one. I would like to know what perspective you are referring to and are you considering the sides to be equal? If not, why?

That you have lived here 'long time' does not really mean that you understand how things work out here. I would be VERY careful to place people in boxes. They might get uncomfortable there.

I just wonder...how the guy liked a chap looking like this???

Updated: [November 26, 2008 ] :: 21:30:57 [view 2099] <h3 class="textbule">EXCELLENT PATTAYA POLICE WORK TRACKS DOWN BRUTAL KILLER OF GAY MAN</h3> According to news reported on November 25, 2008 , Mr. Tanorm, a gay man, had been brutally murdered at his room. Police had presumed that he was killed by a companion he had brought back to his room on the day before the incident occurred.

The police team had been searching for the suspect throughout the gay community and trying to gather more information about him. The Police had shown pictures of the suspect to all the witnesses and finally found out that the suspect, a Mr. Abdul Lorman or Bird (19), had worked at the Dream Boy, a gay bar in Pattaya Land Soi 1.

With information obtained from his place of work, police armed with a warrant issued from the Pattaya court rushed to house no. 1/10 Moo.8 Soongnern, Nakornratchasima (Korat) where the suspect had lived before, but they did not find him there. After further investigation they finally managed to arrest the suspect at his friend's house in Kokgroout, Korat on the night of 25th November (two days after the crime had taken place).

He still had all the victim’s valuables in his possession. Police took him back to Pattaya police station and announced the arrest to the press at 05.00 am. today (26th November) through police major Chalermsak Tientongsri the Chief of the inspection team. The suspect said he had met the victim about a month before through his work at the Dream Boy gay bar. The victim had paid to take the young man from the bar and after each service the young man got paid between 1800 and 2000 baht. Most of the time the victim had taken him to his room, where he was later found murdered.

After they had been together for a while, the victim had offered to support him and got the young man to quit his job as a go-go boy. The suspect said Mr. Tanorm (the victim) liked to wear a lot of jewelry and also had a lot of cash and he liked to go out, gambling and living his life as a high-so Gay because he had a foreign boyfriend who kept sending him money - a hundred thousand baht each month. Late at night, on 23rd November, when the incident happened, he called Mr. Tanorm and they arranged to meet at his room. When he asked for some money, Mr. Tanorm refused.

They had an argument because the victim demanded to have sex differently this time. He wanted to act the part of a go-go boy but when he refused, the victim started to call him names and acting crazy. The suspect then grabbed a knife and repeatedly stabbed him until he died.

How do the police know what was taken? The guy was dead! How did they know that he was gay? Was it the white singlet and flowery shorts? Is his being gay actually incidental to the crime? Strange story in my book.

Maybe you should check the original news. There it stated that he was working as mamasan in a gay establishment, had young guys coming to his place every now and then, had a friend concerned and saw him dead on the floor through a window. It is amazing how much Thais know about each others. If someone goes around with 10 Baht gold things, they will be gazing those like miracle-working amulets. You sound a bit naive if you haven't noticed how much Thais observe their fellows and are very street wise.

Jd has the link. Why don't you use it? Too tired to double click?

Hi dudes,

I am alone on Samui and I dont like to go out alone.

I want to try this way to find some gay bi or straight people who have the same problem ...

Of course, it is easy to find Thai people at parties, but I am not interested in moneyboys and/or sex only.

Hope to find someone ... please use private messages!

i did NEVER say that i am looking for a relationship ...

i only said that i am not looking for sex ...

but i decided not to continue this discussion here,

because obviously, many of you love to have a lot of sex with thais.

so nobody here would understand what i am talking about.

The above was written by you in August...er... seems that no development here, hahaha...

I still don't understand you.

Happily married, stopped naughty for now

It just happens that when I am happy, I feel no urge to. I really am happy, I guess. But what comes to the question of expecting something...er...I had NO CLUE when I came over the first time. Amazing Thailand, indeed! The only place I had heard was Pattaya. Nowadays I prefer places that Thais are in majority. Some foreigners make me so unhappy complaining too much. I really enjoy it here.

The room had been thoroughly ransacked and almost all valuable items, including his bracelet, necklace [5-Baht gold weight each] and a watch were taken by the attacker. The TV and the fan were still switched on.

Sad. RIP.

However, I think that the value of his gold was behind this sad encounter. It seems that now when economy is slowly hitting the Thais in denial, this kind of behavior will more likely become more rampant - unfortunately so.

10 Baht of gold (worth around 120.000 Baht) is a fortune to someone in dire need. We all - gay or not - should protect ourselves.

Take care.