onni4me

Is that why so many people are accusing me of lying, they just don't believe that any guys fancy LB's? If they live in Thailand they must have seen falangs with ladyboys before!

I still can't see why they would think that anyone would make up a story which is guaranteed to get them slated and verbally abused. It's hardly a post that is going to win me praise and popularity.

What goes on in the heads of the people who are calling me a lying troll? It's certainly not logic.

You have spent so far quite many replies by getting upset and what comes to being abused or whatever - aren't we all here a bit anonymous? I think your popularity is going nowhere when there is no genuine you.

I, myself, am gay and I don't really care who goes out with who or what but by the sound of it, you really have an issue here and should try to overcome your hurdles. It sounds very peculiar that you first state that there are no such places in your LARGE town and that you are afraid to commit these explorations there but still you do. It is not wise to begin with and I think it all comes to the fact that you are not square and fair with your own life. I hate pretending in all its forms.

I have a friend that is into dressing himself as a house maid and cleaning house hald-naked in front of his missus. The wife herself told that he gets sexual kicks from that and I found it just amusing. It hasn't effected me in no way.

It all comes to the fact that in Thailand nobody - or at least very few - really care what you are and what you are into. So, the best advice is: come clean about yourself. It might make your life much easier. If you loose some friends, they never really were your friends anyway. People - and I likewise - like honesty and they like honest people. Hiding yourself is not really an option. If you love your missus and she loves you, there can be compromises. If she leaves, you might still be better off.

Here was my ideas. I just wonder why your contribution lies in judging others. We are here to give comments but it's not our profession so no liability involved.

I will have to cook up better lies next time seeing that there are so many switched on Sherlocks stalking the forums.

dam_n my idea of posting a phony story about having a derided sexuality and being scared shitless by some ladyboys was tumbled. dam_n you knowlegable expats, dam_n you!

Thanks for confirmation.

The fact that you lack experience and education in these matters doesn't mean the op is lying. Just means you don't know what you are talking about.

In what matters? I would be interested knowing..?

I have had my rounds here more than 4 years already and that includes various encounters that I am not necessarily proud of.

I simply think that OPs concentrating around blaming others rather than addressing issues at hand is highly suspicious. He also has never posted in gay section before and that is an indicator that he is not that genuine necessarily.

I hope I have my rights for an opinion or should I just encourage everyone without a bit of critical viewing?

PS: Why on all of the Thailand forums is it so common for people to be accused of lying?

I was not accusing but made clear that there were too many aspects that did not simply make sense. So, if you like to impress me, ypou could concentrate making points clear, like what LARGE city you live in where are NO red light district etc. I think a large city is enough spacious to remain anonymous.

And what comes to attitudes etc. I have fought with my own sexuality enough long to detest lies and deception and pretending to be something that one is not. It is a common mistake that criticism is seen as not approving ones views. I have seen very few that are that narrow-minded.

So, if one is fragile and just accepts positive views, one should not post on this forum. After all, you have a GF and you look quite strange liaisons outside that. Not something that fully makes me feel that you are someone to trust 100%. We all are accountable for our actions. Unfortunately so.

I live away from the girly bars and red light districts in a large Thai town.

I have an issue with believing you.

1st a large town and NO girly bars/red lights? Er...

2nd 1000 Baht each and they were not happy? And you speak some Thai and were unable to agree on payment and terms? I like to have my fun in some sort of controlled environment just to avoid this kind of hassle. And if someone would hit me I would come back at them with everything I can.

3rd You say that your income is low. So you consider 2000 Baht peanuts? Umh.

4th you state that you are gay or bi. Whatever but your story just does not seem to add up. I know exactly what I am into and what way, some experiments made when feeling like up to it but ALWAYS agreed beforehand

5th all LBs that I have met have been respectful towards me and we have had fun drinking and spending time together (although, I have never had sex with a LB). I think they normally get upset if someone does not pay them or makes false promise. They, as normal people, try to avoid problems in their own premises since they can be tracked down. Normal robbery would have involved some drugs in a drink or some other kind of trickery.

So, all said, don't believe you. Sorry if wrong but don't think so.

pleonasm |ˈplēəˌnazəm|

noun

the use of more words than are necessary to convey meaning (e.g., see with one's eyes), either as a fault of style or for emphasis.

can i use as emphasis? but thanks for the spelling correction i have always trouble with o s and a s

Was this thread about tolerance of linguistics?

I would personally prefer if you two would stick to the subject.

Good riddance!

I think when speaking of 'losing face' this should be remembered. Government doesn't seem to be able to arrange even meeting without being totally paralyzed.

I think this will destroy the remains of the credibility of this country and its people.

Seems to be so many terrible news about Iraq...and some dare to say that speaking might hurt feelings. Aargh!

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-4861.html

Two gay Iraqi men have survived kidnapping and beating by the violently homophobic Mahdi Army. The army is loyal to firebrand fundamentalist Shia cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr, who is fighting to establish an Islamist dictatorship in Iraq. Two months after their ordeal, traumatised Ahmed, 23, and Zaid, 24, both students in Baghdad University, have come forward to tell how they were lured into a trap by members of the Mahdi Army.

The Madhi Army has been involved in the torture and execution of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Iraqis and many other Iraqis, especially women, who do not conform to its harsh interpretation of Islam. Ahmed's and Zaid's story reveals how Muqtada al-Sadr's men have adopted a new tactic, borrowed from the Iranian secret police. They are posing as gays in online chat rooms, in order to lure gay men, arrange dates and kill them.

Ahmed and Zaid told their story to Dina H, a 30 year-old Iraqi lesbian who is the co-coordinator of the Iraqi gay human rights group, Iraqi LGBT, in the southern region, south of Baghdad.

"Ahmed and Zaid had gone online in early May and entered a gay chatroom, where they arranged to meet two men who had asked them for a date," said Peter Tatchell of LGBTI human rights organisation OutRage!

Mr Tatchell and OutRage! work closely with Iraqi LGBT, supporting its life-saving humanitarian work. He retells the two men's story, based on information recently received from Dina H inside Iraq.

"On May 17, Ahmed and Zaid showed up for their date," said Mr Tatchell.

"Their dates were very good looking men with a brand new car. After chatting for a while, Ahmed and Zaid agreed to go with them in their car. They headed towards the Al-Karada district of Baghdad.

"When they got there, the mood changed suddenly. Their dates revealed themselves to be members of the Mahdi Army. They locked the car doors, took out guns and began beating Ahmed and Zaid.

"The Mahdi men interrogated them, demanding to know the names and phone numbers of other gay men.

"They went through the names of everyone listed in their mobile phones and wallets.

"Ahmed and Zaid were bashed badly and stripped of their clothes, leaving them with only their underwear.

"They were then blindfolded, handcuffed with strips of wire, forced into the boot of the car and driven away," said Mr Tatchell.

According to Dina H's account, based on what she was told by the two men:

"Ahmed and Zaid thought they were going to a place where they would be shot and left for dead, like has happened to so many other gay Iraqis during the last four years," reports Dina H.

"The car stopped in a deserted area. The Mahdi men opened the car trunk and told Ahmed and Zaid to kneel on the ground and say their prayers.

"Ahmed and Zaid prayed and waited, expecting to be executed. But suddenly, for a reason unknown, the two Mahdi militia men got in their car and drove away.

"A little later, the driver of a passing car stopped to help them. He removed the wires from Ahmed's and Zaid's wrists and took the blindfold from their eyes.

"The driver then helped them hail a taxi which took them home.

"Having survived this near-execution, Ahmed and Zaid have promised themselves that there will be no more chatting with strangers on the internet, and that they will hide their sexuality.

"Few people seem to care about the fate of Iraqi gays and lesbians," said Dina H.

"Without the continuing help of Iraqi LGBT, we would have been killed a long time ago.

"We are grateful for the latest financial help from Human Rights Watch and from the many other individual donors. It will keep us going for another month or so," said Dina H.

"Normally, gay kidnap victims are always killed," adds Ali Hili, a gay Iraqi refugee, who coordinates Iraqi LGBT from London.

"Ahmed and Zaid do not know why they were not shot. They are pleasant, kind young men. Perhaps their kidnappers took pity on them.

"Zaid and Ahmed realise they are very lucky to escape alive. They have learned that being gay in Iraq is impossible. It is too dangerous.

"Dina is running a safe house, hiding eight gays and lesbians who have fled death threats and attempted honour killings by their families.

"She has helped many gay Iraqis over the last four years. We all think she is incredibly brave.

"Iraqi LGBT has been trying hard to raise international awareness and highlight the suffering of lesbian and gay people in Iraq. It has been very difficult.

"We often feel let down by the gay community in the west. We need help to protect our friends and save their lives.

"In these hard times for gay Iraqis, the whole LGBT community worldwide should stand up for the rights of Iraqi LGBTs.

"Iraq is one of the most homophobic and dangerous places on the face of the earth. It is a deadly place for anyone who is found out to be homosexual or who is even suspected of being one," said Mr Hili. Iraqi LGBT is making an appeal for donations to fund its work.

"Iraqi LGBT needs donations to help gay people in Iraq who are fleeing the death squads of the Mahdi Army and the Badr Brigades," appealed Mr Hili.

"We need money for safe houses, food, electricity, security protection and clothing - and to help pay the phone bills of members of the Iraqi LGBT group.

"They are sending us information about the homophobic killings, at great risk to their own lives.

"Many of the people we are helping had nothing but the clothes on their backs, when they fled attacks by fundamentalist militias and Iraqi police.

"The police have been infiltrated by Shia extremists. They are using the cover the of the police to kill gays and lesbians.

"We are also paying for medication for members who are HIV positive. Otherwise, they will not get treatment.

"If it is discovered that they have HIV, they will surely be killed," said Mr Hili.

Gay human rights group OutRage! is working with Iraqi LGBT to support its work.

Iraqi LGBT is coordinated by Ali Hili from the safety of London. The group does not yet have a bank account. Operating an Iraqi LGBT bank account in Baghdad would be suicide. For this reason, it has to operate its finances from London.All the group's members in London are Iraqi refugees seeking asylum. Their lack of proper legal status makes it difficult for them to open a bank account in the UK.

This is why Iraqi LGBT is asking that cheques be made payable to "OutRage!", with a cover note marked "For Iraqi LGBT", and sent to OutRage!, PO Box 17816, London SW14 8WT, England, UK.OutRage! then forwards the donations received to Ali Hili and Iraqi LGBT for wire transfer to activists in Baghdad.

I've never attended the Chiang Mai Gay Pride parade, but if it's typical of most such events it's simply a freak show used to promote commercial venues. I would think homophobes would encourage such events since they perpetuate the worst possibly stereotypes.

I must be one of those freaks then...

I think gay parades are naturally promoted by the venues that we attend - some less, some more often.

Judging solely by your post, you are one of those bigoted, one-eyed, racist and untolerant persons that I would personally not want to meet. Might be wrong of course, since this site works for you as a way to let the extra steam out. You might try to attend some meditation courses, also. Might help.

...but I aint gonna deny myself like I did in the West for all those years...scratch a heterosexual and you will often find a homopobe...it is in the too hard basket for most...

I have always wondered why being gay is such a problem for other (mostly male)people. When pondering this, my feminist friend made up an explanation that might have some truth in it.

She said that male culture is basicly gay since they do have these very close friendships with other males, tap them on shoulder, hug them or even kiss them. Basicly anything else goes than sex. Just look at sports...

And gays brake the illusion by crossing over the line. They show what it is all about. It's love between males, although, in many occasions imprinted secretly in their brains. Very few would ever acknowledge that they dreamed about the possibility that there would be more than meets the eye. When there is even a hint about that it would be more, an average homophobic male becomes aggressive. They have never encountered their feelings and now they feel threatened. It is much easier to use force than really get your head straight.

Not that I agree totally to the above but it made me think that those straight guys that I have met and have been supportive, normally have been better fathers and husbands than average Joes. They have their values straight and love their families and accept different kind of ways of living. All this adds up to that they have used their brains and left the ape stage behind them.

I am going to post an answer as I saw something I really do find offensive here.

First an intro about myself as I am posting in a sub-forum that I am merely a guest. I am arab, Iraqui, hetrosexual and left Iraq when I was 3 years old.

Lucky you. Maybe your view would be different if you were still living in Iraq and you'd be homosexual.

And what comes to the actions of USA, I feel that I am totally innocent. I am not a US citizen or never have been. I agree that part of the post you refer to is quite over the top but the fact remains that Iraq is very unfriendly to gay people, maybe even life threatening.

Words don't kill people, people kill people.

And more on the subject on CNN...I feel so sad when reading this kind of news.

Rami and Kamal, both gay Iraqis, say they rarely show affection for men in public.

var CNN_ArticleChanger = new CNN_imageChanger('cnnImgChngr','/2008/WORLD/meast/07/24/gay.iraqis/imgChng/p0-0.init.exclude.html',1,0); //CNN.imageChanger.load('cnnImgChngr','imgChng/p1-0.exclude.html'); BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Kamal was just 16 when gunmen snatched him off the streets of Baghdad, stuffed him in the trunk of a car and whisked him away to a house. But the real terror was about to begin.

The men realized he was gay, Kamal said, when he took his shirt off and they saw that his chest was shaved.

"They told me to take off my clothes to rape me or they would kill me immediately. This moment was the worst moment in my life," he said, weeping as he spoke of the 2005 ordeal.

"I was watching them taking off their clothes, preparing to rape me. I did not know what to do, so I started shouting loudly, 'Please do not do that! I will ask my family to give you whatever you want.' " Watch the tormented life of gays in Iraq »

His pleas went unheeded. "The other two kidnappers took off my clothes by force, and, at that time, I saw them as three dirty animals trying to tear my body apart."

He was held for 15 days, released only after his family paid a $1,500 ransom. He was raped every day. Only once, he said, was he allowed to talk to his family during captivity. "I told my family that I was beaten by them, but I did not dare to tell my family that I was raped by them. I could not say it, it's too much shame."

CNN spoke with Kamal, now 18, and his 21-year-old friend Rami about what it's like to be gay in Iraq. Coming out as gay is not easy in any country, but to do so in Iraq could mean a death sentence or torture.

The two men rarely show feelings toward each other in public. They spend a lot of time in Internet cafes in Baghdad, surfing gay chat rooms and seeking contacts with other gay men in Iraq and elsewhere.

Since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003, the situation for gays and lesbians in Iraq has deteriorated. Ridiculed under Hussein, many now find themselves the targets of violence, according to humanitarian officials.

Lesbians are also victims of harassment and violence, but not nearly as often as gay men. It's unknown how many homosexuals have been killed by militias in the lawless streets of Iraq's cities, but some Web sites post pictures of Iraqis they say were killed for being gay.

One photo on the Iraqi Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender site shows a group of men standing around three male bodies sprawled on a street, blood pouring from their heads. "Gay Iraqi victims of the police and death squads," the site says.

A U.N. report on human rights in Iraq reinforces the accusations of violence. Although gays are supposed to be protected by law in Iraq, it says, they face extreme brutality.

"Armed Islamic groups and militias have been known to be particularly hostile toward homosexuals, frequently and openly engaging in violent campaigns against them," the report said, adding that homosexuals have been murdered.

"Militias are reportedly threatening families of men believed to be homosexual, stating that they will begin killing family members unless the men are handed over or killed by the family," it said.

The report was issued at the end of 2006 and is the last U.N. study to touch on the subject. Human rights experts say homosexuals are targeted for cultural reasons as well.

"Gay men and lesbians in Iraq face a lot of risks right now, because homosexuality is sometimes interpreted by people in Iraq as being a Western import," said Scott Portman with the Heartland Alliance, a group that promotes human rights worldwide. "So they can sometimes be targeted by insurgent groups or militias, in part, because of animosity toward the West and, in part, because homosexuality is not well-accepted in Iraqi society."

He added, "the biggest threats right now are from militia organizations, who will attack and actually sometimes kill gay men and women."

Kamal and Rami say the dangers are all too real in Baghdad -- and they live in secrecy not to shame their families. "I would rather commit suicide than allow my family to find out I am gay," Rami said.

Kamal said he often pretends to have girlfriends in social settings and tells his friends he's dating girls. "I am also careful with the way I dress -- not to show them that I am gay, especially my family."

What would his family do if they found out?

"They will force me to give it up, and I cannot do that," he said. "The 'normal' people cannot live in Iraq. Imagine how the life is for gays." Rami added, "I do not know why people hate gays even though so many have this tendency. But still they hate it."

Homosexuality is a touchy subject for many Iraqis. When CNN asked Iraqis in Baghdad how they felt about homosexuals, we found intolerance to be widespread.

One man said he considers gays no different from "criminals and terrorists." Another claimed that homosexuality was "illegal under Islamic law, and [gays] should be punished by law like criminals."

Rami said he once fell in love with a man who was part of the Mehdi Army, a Shiite insurgent group loyal to the radical anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Their relationship eventually soured.

"One day he told me he would come over to my house and kill me in front of my family," Rami said. "I told him I would come outside and be killed in the street because I do not want my family to find out I am gay."

Both men hope to escape Iraq. They say their ideal destination would be San Francisco, California. For now, both of them keep their feelings secret.

Kamal is still tormented by what happened to him nearly three years ago. "During my sleep, I only see nightmares, and I start crying. My family thought it was because they were beating me."

Metrosexuality is at the very least a pseudo-gay topic. I think we can enjoy the article here for the tongue-in-cheek aspect.

What else than bisexual is metrosexuality by nature? It's been called by many names but if it blurs ones vision whether someone is man or woman either homosexual or not, what else could it be? David Bowie had that thing called androgynous at some point. I equal that with metrosexuality.

BTW, there was one very nice story about Marlene Dietrich when she said that ones in Berlin she saw 'a thing' and couldn't decide about whether 'it' was a male or female. So she needed to ask. The thing answered with very masculine low voice: "I haven't decided yet!"

I am at least enough hairy to survive this sudden whim of fashion...and enough muscular too. Actually, many people have been surprised to know that I am gay. They alwasy say that can't be because "You don't LOOK a bit like that!".

No reason to worry..? Here's more from the article since I feel that it should raise eyebrows.

The shutdown of the Chiang Mai Gay Pride parade in February burst the "gay paradise" bubble of many who now scramble to explain the violent display of homophobia by the Rak Chiang Mai 51 group. Alarmingly, even after shutting down the event, this particular red-shirt group continues to use its radio station to incite violence against gays and katoeys.

More liberal red-shirt supporters argue that homophobia is not written in their ideology. It needn't be. Preying on unpopular groups is a classic political tactic. Rak Chiang Mai 51's violence may be the most extreme case, but they were only trying to score points from the deep-seated homophobia in Thai society at large.

And they were not alone. While spreading outrageous accusations as facts, the local media shut their eyes and ears to the explanation of the organising NGOs about the parade's cultural sensitivity and its human rights and anti-HIV objectives.

Similarly, government agencies including the governor's office showed disapproval of the event, irrationally claiming that it would tarnish Chiang Mai's culture.

Their concerted opposition was then used by the disrupters to justify their action. Finally, the police not only didn't help, but even pressured the organisers to apologise to the abusers. None of these actors have so far take responsibility for the incident, showing implicit approval of the homophobic violence.

The past few years have shown the extent to which the Thai public is willing to allow homophobia. During their Sanam Luang protest, yellow-shirt protestors comfortably got away with a giant main stage sign taunting a political enemy with homophobic slander. Their mouthpiece, Manager newspaper, perpetrates the same practice.

But homophobia is far from new in Thailand. Despite the Buddha's core teaching of compassion, many Thai "Buddhists" believe that homosexuals and transgenders deserve low social status in the present because they supposedly committed sins - specifically adultery - in their past lives. Some even believe that homosexuality and transgenderism are, by themselves, sexual misconduct.

The cultural aspect of homophobia was obvious during the Chiang Mai incident. Some of the disrupters' signs branded gays and katoeys as "kheud" - a northern term for "inauspicious" or "unlucky".

Foreigners, naturally, are unlikely to be subject to such treatment. Rak Chiang Mai 51 even took the trouble of going around the city with loudspeaker trucks to warn foreigners to stay away from the event for risk of getting hurt.

Thailand's superficially observed "tolerance" for gays and katoeys is in fact the result of the non-confrontational culture. While disapproval of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people is not worn on most people's public sleeve, the anonymity of the Internet, however, is rife with homophobic comments made in private.

The truth is, Thai-style "tolerance" only applies when you stay put in your place according to the cultural pecking order. Unsurprisingly, Chiang Mai Gay Pride organisers were told by the authorities that there would be no objection if the parade was held on some back streets and other activities shifted to inside a hotel.

The violence in Chiang Mai shows what happens when people refuse to stay put in their place and start demanding equal rights. Exceptions to the non-confrontation rule burst out when homophobia finds its outlet in those in very high or very low groups who think might makes right.

Some may view the concerted homophobia in Chiang Mai as an isolated occurrence, but it in fact sits well in the company of Rajabhat Institute's 1997 initiative to reject students who are "sexual deviants" and the Ministry of Culture's 2004 plan to get rid of the "homosexual presence" from television. These latter two examples of institutional homophobia are more worrisome. Political dissenters can shut down a gay event but it's actually power-wielding civil servants who can arbitrarily shut down civil rights under the legitimacy of government.

Despite Article 30 of the present constitution, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex, including sexual orientation and gender identity, Thai governments have yet to show signs of recognising the equal rights of LGBT people. The number of laws to ensure equality and non-discrimination for LGBT people remains the same: zero.

Although party to many UN human rights treaties, Thailand doesn't fare better internationally under those terms. Late last year, Thai activists met with the Foreign Ministry, requesting that Thailand sign the UN General Assembly statement calling for decriminalisation of homosexuality worldwide. The request fell upon deaf ears and Thailand abstained.

It is time the government re-examined the Foreign Ministry's claim that saying yes to the statement would affect relationships with countries with gay-hostile cultures.

To reject LGBT rights - an integral part of human rights - in favour of special treatment for cultural jingoism will expose Thailand's lack of integrity and encourage more homophobia on home turf.

To prevent the Chiang Mai incident from repeating itself elsewhere, the government must reaffirm all constitutionally guaranteed human rights as the minimum common denominator across the country.

Campaigning in Pattaya for the general election, Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said in 2007 that, "The Democrat Party hopes that Thai society will recognise human dignity for all persons including those of the "third sex" … All of us must put the highest priority on human rights, liberty and equality. There should be no discrimination on the grounds of sex. Society should accept the differences as they exist in the modern world."

Now that he's become the country's leader, it's time he makes good on those words. Or else, his government will continue to raise doubts on its human rights commitments.

The first step is to sign the UN non-discrimination statement, as US President Obama belatedly did by reversing the position of his predecessor. After that, he must bring to account government offices in Chiang Mai for tacitly condoning homophobic violence.

This will send a powerful signal throughout the country and the world that Thailand has no place for homophobia and that tolerance can only begin when all persons stand in equality, not the cultural pecking order.

In the deepest corners of Issan, my ex-bf was a very obvious gay guy. He was welcomed in the village - so was I. There were even a few pre-pubescent ladyboys - no discrimination there.

Fast forward to 2009: My close Thai friend works for a government department in Bangkok. I will never meet his family as he will never come 'out of the closet.' to family or workmates.

I have had this experience as well. I suppose it's about loosing face again. Those on a higher steps of societys ladder are simply scared to be themselves. Competition may be fierce and this can be something of a losing game for them. Then, asked about ladyboys - many Thais consider them freaks of some kind and they may use their 'services' but look down at them at the same time.

Gays have been referred as something unnatural and the thing itself described being all about sexual frenzy by a revered high monk. He also added that for this reason gays can not become good monks. And as said above - what happened in Chiang Mai - is many times seen as a threat against the traditional (family) values. This, I know, has hurt many gay Thais and they feel somewhat rejected.

I feel that the question is not that simple, at all. I have some, if not nasty but unpleasent, comments and attitudes from some Thais and they tend to 'speak bad' behind ones back. This is often in situation where it's about money and business, especially when they don't get their way. Some Thais, even I have done nothing that I know of, don't greet me or talk to me. So, the question whether this really is a gay-welcoming society or not is under doubt.

I think in the future when economics may take a nasty turn and society with its old ways is in crisis, it may turn against minorities as it, unfortunately, has done so many times in history. We need to be alert.

Also, moisturizing ones skin can cause the skin itself to produce less natural ingredients

I don't believe that for one second.

Not a question of belief, just pure logic.

BTW, are you dried out farangs with the moisturized Thai boyfriends implying that there is a connection with being well moisturized and being a bottom? Just asking ...

Might be... some truth in it. At least, in my experience, the other half seems to be worrying getting old and ugly and that I will leave him then...just like some ladies that while buying expensive coconut cream telling that they do it for their husbands. LOL

However, I agree with the poster above that I feel dried up in Europe, not in LOS. Those visits are normally the only occations when I apply some cream on my childlike smooth skin.

Also, moisturizing ones skin can cause the skin itself to produce less natural ingredients so one becomes more dependant on those of chemical nature. I've seen and witnessed some Thai ladies that would be better off doing nothing to their skins for couple of months. Overdoing it might cause all kinds of problems as well like acne and infections. This mainly caused by the chemicals in the stuff.

BTW, I would've never guessed that this issue becomes so popular in gay section. Maybe "moisturizing" by any other name is a gay thing after all.

I have never been a skin care person, even after leaving the closet (I hesitate to say 'come out of the closet'). But the Thai BF fills all our shelves in the shower and above the lavatory with creams and lotions and moisturizers

I can relate to the above. My bf is a walking skin specialist, although he just sighs quietly when I refuse to experiment different kind of oils and so on. I'm allergic to most of the stuff they put in those jars anyway. I used to explore cosmetics long time ago when going through the chemistry studies (I actually am spesialized in color chemistry) and found out that some stuff they put in is actually very scary and certainly unhealthy.

Most of the expensive stuff is anyway made out of purified coconut cream so I wonder why don't people just simply carve coconuts and splash it to their faces..? Would make a scary appearance in the morning, I guess.

ORGANIC BODY BUTTER

Those words says it, no need to comment further...

BTW, have you some dealership with BOOTS? I have noticed their products being expensive compared to those one can buy from regular pharmacies. And if someone asks why I know, is because someone close to me wears so much different kind of stuff that it makes me wanna puke. Sometimes, that is.

Good luck.

I would try local discos etc. There is normally a quite large amount of gay people. Maybe they are much more reserved and do not talk English, I'm afraid. Conservative? Don't know about that. Never met any Thai that would have problem with conservatism. They may not like to show naked bodies or have sex in public but that doesn't necessarily count as being conservative.

Going off from Bangkok or Pattaya or tourist spots means giving up gay spots. They may have a gay massage or similar but otherwise you need to find something else to do. Just wonder why you intend to move there if you are such interested having 'gay life'? It simply doesn't exist in the sense as in big farang occupied cities.

Having said this, I still enjoy my life in Esaan. Much more than I did in Bangkok.

Give your bf a house so that after you die, he has a home. Then he can get another bf, younger, to take care of him.

I knew a gay farang who outlived both of his middle-aged Thai boyfriends.

Yes, I guess he might even choose one before departing from me...hahah

Outliving him might also be a possibility given that he is 6 years younger than me but in my family males have lived normally up to 80-85 years.

Well, actually I believe I will donate a house sooner or later.

I think I will stick to my point helping the youngsters of the family and that's it!

I looked some of the clips that opened from the link above. I became sad for the same reason I didn't like Brokeback Mountain movie - there were simply so much sadness and feeling that living a gay life would not become anything else than misery and failure.

Asians tend to hide their personal life from working colleagues and family if they are gay. This of course, applies mostly to those being upscale in the society. There certainly are issues even in Thailand that have to be faced up front. Just started to think what happened in Chiang Mai and didn't feel good...

Many Thai gays that I know of 'loose face' if the truth is told openly. Sometimes it bothers me, sometimes not. I myself try to be open. Truth to be told, have been having trouble with farang attitudes more than Thai ones.

My boyfriend seems to be thinking that we should adopt some child or even disseminate sperm ourselves.

I have always been quite disinterested having this kind of family. I feel that gay guys should not do patterns of straight families just because they do it. I pointed out that we already have his sister and other family members breeding and producing kids. One fact is that many Thais have children and at the same time have no means growing them up in a decent manner. So I have been helping with school fees etc. and feel that's enough from my part. I do enjoy kids but not my own necessarily.

I think this is quite Thai idea since many of them want to have someone 'taking care' of them when old. I think this as a whim and not so serious but it still makes me wonder why I feel so reluctant about the idea.

So, if I have understood correct, some of you have kids and some may consider having a family with his partner. So opinions about the matter much appreciated. Thanks.

You might try your embassy.

On needs certificate that both of you are free to marry and maybe some other documents.

As I understand, it can be arranged in some embassies, You just need to ask them.

I wrote earlier how I got to find my bf in thread. That was about how to meet someone """real""" online. No nud_e pics etc. Thais - """normal""" ones - are quite shy.

Just using common sense helps a lot. :jerk:

EDIT:// My thread link below

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Find-Good-Ma...et-t205123.html