onni4me

I have met several people that spoke like gays, acted like gays, and I thought they must be gay - but I was wrong. It seems that even in the West all these roles are blurred. Just think of metrosexuality...whatever that means, can't even imagine even I am gay. The very idea that I would be everything at all times and appear in every color imaginable, makes me think that what would I be then?

This reminds me of the book 'Lord of the Rings' where Gandalf faces his former friend who has turned to arch enemy. In that part Saruman has become 'Saruman of all colors' and Gandalf tells him that then he has given up reason and has chosen madness. Sort of rings the bell. Nowadays, hand in hand with liberation, people seem to have lost their inner compass. What they really want and how they feel inside. I am a great believer of listening yourself. I have many times noticed when I am not happy with some aspect of my life and noticed that the easy way out is to confront it. The quicker, the better.

Many, who appear as 'gay' or liberal may totally 'change color' if you get close to them. They may feel that their private space is been threatened and act accordingly. This why I am not comfortable necessarily in straight bars or establishments. They are okay if I don't reveal my colors but when taking my bf along or something similar, things can take a nasty turn. Sometimes I wonder why straight guys can go "observing" gays without being threatened but the other way around one might risk his integrity and even worse.

I really can't tell by face value whether someone is gay or not. Same if I would be asked if someone is HIV+ positive. Can't tell unless it's obvious.

I just wonder why totally straight guy would like to spend his evening in a gay area?

We used to set rules for straights when they tried to push us out of our 'living room' which was a small bar in Helsinki. We are no animals and wish not to be stared or observed as such. Many people - especially in groups - thought they could come and laugh at us since they considered it to be fun. I can tell you: It's NOT!

Another thing is the heteroes that come to gay venues with their gay friends. They normally have good self-esteem and are sure about themselves so no need for any phobias. I simply don't trust straight people to behave. Let us stay in our own places. I am not intruding to yours for reasons mentioned before.

All this talk of "rescuing" sounds very Victorian, as though bar boys were fallen women.

Maybe someone should write a modern version book themed 'Great Expectations' or 'Good Intentions' to cover the subject.

I agree that it's very difficult to help anyone if there is no effort on the other side. As a plus comes all the Thai expectations from the family, peers, friends etc. I have given up thinking that I could help becoming sort of a Red Cross. I leave that to others. I am making sacrifices for my Thai family according to my finances - which are not plenty - and will try to better their lives what comes to education and health.

Ignorance is a bliss, sometimes.

someone who is most likely severely damaged from these experiences

I would like to hear from someone who knows what this 'severely damaged' means because it sounds like those feminists, who know better than ladies of the trade, what's damaging and what's not. Granted - I think this line of work makes people shrug off their illusions and become more cynical. But whether it's damaging to what degree - don't really buy that.

If someone starts to talk about drugs and drinking heavily - these things are damaging to everyone, not just people of the trade. Social stigmas can be a burden as well but compared to being gay in wrong environment, can't find much difference.

I think that judging people and putting them down with negative expectations is much far damaging than selling ones' body. One thing comes to mind that has caused so many tragedies and suicides amongst gays - healing them with religion!

I believe that Thai guys are not subjected so much to Western patterns and ways of conduct. They may simply fail in their own, no planning, no way to sort their way out of social circles etc. I have found that so many Thais only listen and believe their peers, not farangs even they might have some good advice to share.

To each their own...

Hmm...here my two cents.

Seeing so many rescues gone wrong, I am not very convinced to recommend it to anyone. All this said, I have personal knowledge about it and the 1st Thai guy ever was not a BB but very close (having many friends from the circles and so on) but we are still friends and sometimes I help him with some finances not worth mentioning. He is still living alone and going now his mid-30s is not very likely to attract many farangs. I mean that he is not that handsome but otherwise quite nice chap. The reason I was attracted was that he made me simply feel good in some areas but very uncomfortable in others like being aggressive, possessive and very jealous. After we decided to quit it's all been okay.

The one thing that makes Thais different is that they have no guilt, maybe some but childlike - it wears off very easily. This makes them unique compared to - let's say - Europeans that have these frustrations about religion, morals, homosexuality and so on, endlessly.

I've seen former BBs returning to 'respectable' trades but in many cases this has significantly lowered their income. After all, many started their 'careers' to bring more to their families.

In most cases they begin with nothing and they end up with nothing. There are some that are successful but that's really the vanishing minority. Their families in most cases have been dirt poor so there is no formal education, no way to proceed in Thai hierarchial system.

Many don't really have any love for their farang BFs and may even have a lady on the side with one or more babies. Those, that are really gay and fall in love are normally advised by their peers NOT to fall in love. The rule of 4 F's (Find them, Fall in love with them, fuc_k them and Forget them) is used in many affairs. This, I feel is unfortunate, since I am one of those who always votes for an happy end - even unlikely one. Romantic, that I am.

I was ones bullied out of a bar in Koh Samed. A bar lady became aggressive and verbally abusive when she found out that I was not interested in her 'offerings'.

I find it very awkward to enter any straight premises where hormones are running. It seems some straight guys start to defend their 'territory' against possible threats - this especially when they are engaged with someone with pussy scent. This has happened more than ones and I nowadays avoid these places even if they advertise themselves as 'mixed'. No thrill there for me. Remarkably - this has never occurred in Thai places to that degree. Not that I say it might.

What comes to this situation, I find that the Thai in question probably thought that he could get away with it anyway. He was more sober so I just wonder... This, of course, happens when we run into someone who 'mii naa'. I have tried to avoid confrontation whenever the other person is Thai. It never pays off trying to offend them. Not that I have run into unpleasentries with farangs neither.

Keeping clear head keeps one out of trouble - most of the time...

a friend of mine went to Babyon and on the same day had sex with three generations of men from the same family, quite amazing I thought, a nice family outing I guess for grandpa, son and grandson to be at Dribbleon together..the family that plays together stays together ... Dukkha

Sounds fun..!

But what comes to the topic, I see no evidence that in Esaan there would be more gays than anywhere else. Some financial aspects may attract to be more promiscuous but all in all Thais tend to do what is 'sanuk' and when its done, its done. That's it. No guilt, no looking back.

I would really prefer to move on to the 21st century and leave all those religion-driven morals behind. Sex is fun and enjoyable.

Nearly all men in Esan in Northern Thailand, particularly in the villages where being openly gay is not accepted by family and village elders, and also in Laos, get married, even if they are gay

And the proof is where? I live with my Esaan guy and his family and met loads of gays. Haven't noticed any unacceptance. Some do get married, some don't. Mostly they want to have children to take care them when they are old since there is no social insurance.

Its the tradition to do so.

So it is. Getting married, that is.

When these gay people marry the chance of a gay offspring is greatly increased because of the genetic effect

Total, utter nonsense. There are no proof that gay couples are more likely to have gay children than any other couples. And which parent you mean? Get real, man. Maybe gay would be more accepted in this kind of family but nothing else.

I have not seen any studied scientific evidence of this, but it makes sense and i have seen many gay men in these areas with young children in their arms

Yep. No scientific evidence. So WHAT are you talking about? Feelings, those lovely feeeeeeeliings...and how you know they are gay? I do hold our family's children and so does my husband. That does not make them our children. Or you know these gays and their families close?

What do you think about this idea and can anyone back up this proposition with any information?

Keep your eyes open and your mind as well...can't say much more.

I would like to remind you that this is no pharmaceutical discussion forum...and frankly...I feel that you are somewhat nuts. Sorry, if that gets too personal, just my honest feeling.

I am aware that love and other feelings are somehow based on hormones etc. but I still don't like pills as substitute. I am also aware that humans are not perfect and it takes more than falling in love or furious sex to be together years or decades. People - and their feelings - change and there's nothing unnatural about it.

All this said, I love my bf and wish that the state of affair will continue as long as possible. Others can do whatever it takes to be happy - as long as it's not illegal, of course...and in my mind feeding pills to someone unaware, definately is.

I feel like I am failing the "macho" test and have a few casual dreams about attacking him....

Andy,

whatever You do, never attack any Thai. Not a wise move. At all...

I can't offer much advice since I've never witnessed anything quite like that.

I wonder why your wife lets him get away so easily. He attacked your wife and that is a criminal thing to do. Maybe your wife should talk to the local cop or village headman. People are known to be treated in mental institutions even in Thailand - check it out. The bugger needs help or else someone might get hurt. I hope that's not you or your wife.

The last thing is to let it go like this. It will only get worse now when some limits are broken. The aggressive behavior will probably only get worse.

What if you settle in with a long term partner, and his sexual desire dries up? Time for sammi noi? I think so.

Yep. At least as long my c**k stands up. Later it might be satisfying just to spend time together as most old couples do. I have discussed this with my bf sometimes joking about it...so far no idea of dumping him just for not being the greatest lover in the World. He is on the same level with me and that counts more than sex itself. It simply feels good to be together.

I still think that sexuality should not be put in boxes and moralized. To each their own. Some may explore promiscuity and some are on the other end and some may have no sexual encounters in their lives for various reasons. There is so long history of religions telling us what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' that I believe it would be healthy to do whatever one chooses in the limits of the law. Freedom - sexual freedom as well - is a rare species.

If this was about Phitsanulok (did I spell it correct?), I have an experience about Mr. X there.

He is an ambitious man and 1st one ever to get degree on anything (engineering) in his family. Always concentrated getting the best pay, this guy has charmed (?) plenty of guys, mostly 60+, giving him a better chance in life. We are 'friends', so I get to know more than I would like to.

Some people are so bound to their families that they really don't see the train coming. The guy in question has a GF (!!!) that he is going to MARRY soon, next Month actually. Soooooo... many people still fall for the person. I wonder why. ???

Hi omni4me,

Thanks for the useful information. Do you have a link to the company that are using? I'm not sure if you are talking about a company name or a "door to door" service such as Fedex, DHL, UPS, TOLL etc. I've read various feedback on some of these companies, some of which lacked any praise to say the least, so curious which one you are using which you've never had a problem with. Are you sending things out to one country or worlwide?

Thanks

I wasn't referring to UPS or DHL. They are expensive and only good if you have a regular deal with them. They mostly suggest air cargo which runs around 400 Baht per kilo. The Thai Post is cheaper and as effective.

What I meant where the real logistic companies like DSV Air & Sea, they deliver to most countries and have services available. Since I am talking about exporting large trunks or amounts, they are normally costing about transport inside Thailand (Udon in my case) 4000 Baht + paperwork (customs clearance etc.) 10.000 + packing and placing stuff on pallets + sea transportation (per cubic meter around 5000 baht, there is a weight limit per m2) + transport to your premises in your country.

The more you transport, the cheaper it gets. If the load is more than 10 cubic meters than you should consider renting a container, They have small ones from 30ft up and they come dirt cheap nowadays.

When you establish a relationship with the company, the easier it gets. I have seen the services getting better all the time. You should also ask for an estimate before you order anything where is listed all the expenses. Like if they have to load the container - it costs, if they need to unload the container - it costs, if they need to storage something temporarily - it costs and so on. Cheapest way is to ask them to deliver you the container, load it yourself and unload it in the destination. The import taxes and so on you need to pay yourself but they provide the paperwork, you just give them the necessary documents (normally copies of originals sent through email).

You should ask for offers before. Don't use any of those small shops that advertise logistics services, they are just middleman. You can find a lot of bigger and smaller companies from the net. Do check that they serve you both countries, otherwise there is no guarantee.

Hope this gives you some idea.

I wonder if any business owners have experience with the tea money culture, does someone who has a retail outlet have to pay handouts to the local cops or council, does the exporter who deals with customs etc have to pay a little on the side to grease the wheels, most businesses in Thailand seem to run on very small profit margins, what impact if any do these types of overheads have.

Cheers Rick

Those who live and exercise any form of business in Thailand surely get education in these 'treats'.

However, since I myself have Thai staff and don't deal on anything myself there are no real problems so far...er...sometimes boys in brown appear selling some Buddhist book 10x more its value but that's quite normal, I guess. This happens couple of times a year.

We apply all the regulations that we are aware of and make all the licenses. the problem is that sometimes they change the rules and new papers are needed. Two times theres been a fine around 4000 Baht each time but those were due to lack of knowledge.

What comes to exports, I use logistics company door-to-door. Never any problems. They pick up, pack, make papers, customs clearance is provided etc. Very professional. The fees are not much more than you would pay yourself. I recommend this option if you consider exporting. choose a big company that also deals in your country of origin.

Cheers!

3. Realising the first time that there really was someone for everyone, even if I didn't consider myself all that attractive at the time

4. Coming out to my family- not because of their reaction to it, but because of MY reaction.

Yes, I suppose many of us western guys have been there. I wasn't that bad looking either but my self-esteem was very low. But that is just why the first experiences (that did not involve judgmental attitudes) were so lovely - and rare.

And I agree that coming out to my family was a good decision despite all. Some deepened their feelings towards me and some distanced themselves. Can't live for them.

I just got to think of movies that made a permanent effect on me. 'Brideshead revisited' came from Finnish television at the time and made a deep impact on me even I wasn't quite sure was there any 'thrill' between the characters. There must've been since I was so glued to the screen. Anthony Andrews...ah. I later found out that the finnish translation was altered slightly to get rid of the 'gay' hints. Nice! But that was Kekkoslovakia as we call it (President Kekkonen was re-elected every now and then and the system was quite similar to the old Soviet...hmm...someone might add that it still is...). Anyway, that series gave me an idea that there were something better to be expected in the far future. Gave me strenth to go through all those years of heterosexual propaganda. Finland - and particularly countryside where I was living - was superconservative. Terrible for any young lad who happened to be gay.

The second movie that really opened my eyes - and as I am such a romantic - made me cry... 'Maurice' here's what Wiki had to say:

Maurice is a novel by E. M. Forster. A tale of homosexual love in early 20th century England, it follows Maurice Hall from his schooldays, through university and beyond. It was written from 1913 onwards. Although it was shown to selected friends, such as Christopher Isherwood, it was only published in 1971 after Forster's death.

The novel is remarkable for its time in describing same-sex love in a non-condemnatory way. Forster resisted publication because of public and legal attitudes to homosexuality — a note found on the manuscript read: "Publishable, but worth it?". Forster was particularly keen that his novel should have a happy ending, but knew that this would make the book too controversial.However, by the time he died, British attitudes and law had changed.

The novel was made into a film Maurice (1987), directed by James Ivory and starring James Wilby as Maurice, Hugh Grant as Clive and Rupert Graves as Alec.

"Publishable, but worth it?", indeed. I really envy the strength of individuals that fight for us others. That movie was one of the great events in my gay life, I was 16 when it was released. After seeing it I decided that there must be someone for me too. Keeping hope alive seems to be the task for artists and writers. I thank them for that.

It seems that many subjects on this forum are concentrating in the serious issues and - perhaps - the more darker side of relationships. I decided to give it a try and ask if anyone has experiences that made them happy or unforgettable.

Most of my happy moments are from the time that I was attending more to the scene. I suppose it's the way that most of us met those days. Internet - at least in the beginning - was not that popular and in this regard people 10 years younger are living very different lives from what it used to be.

One of my happy moments took place when I met a Vietnamese guy in local disco/bar of Helsinki. He was a bit older than me but still very good looking and youngish (what a word!). He was my first experience of an Asian guy and I was a bit excited. And the normal thing followed.

In the morning, however, he had prepared a soup for me and started by massaging me into awareness. He was so kind and attending that I was amazed. That kind of thing is not part of the dealings where I come from (unfortunately!) and I was enjoying the closeness and care that I got.

That experience was so good that we met several times and became friends. Later on he opened a massage parlor with his friends and got so busy that we sort of drifted apart. There was never talk about becoming boyfriends or nothing that sort.

Maybe this does not sound much but the thrill seeing him and experiencing total commitment for mutual happiness was quite a treat to me during those days. It opened my eyes to possibilities seeking another kind of world. It was so different compared to the most Finnish people who didn't seem to be able to contact other human being without being totally blasted. And in the morning - of course - no smile, no exchange of numbers, no thanks and definately no sensual feelings afterwards. So, this encounter came to brighten my life and I started thinking of giving Asia a visit in the near future (actually it took 4 years from that point before I visited Thailand 1st time - a time wasted).

I've met many lovely Asians since but this guy always stays in my heart being the first to show me the kindness and caring and best qualities of a true Asian male. To Trang, wherever you are. He gave me hope to find someone for real. Maybe I am a bit sissy but I am a firm believer of romance and being gentle and caring in a relationship.

2. Esaan don't have too many internet shops like f.e. Chiang Mai so the return is quite good. 1-1.5 million would do the trick. 10K for rent, 15K for electricity, 15K for staff, income between 80-120K a Month (after expenses). Not great but one can survive.

Number 2 is not an option.Spend all that money so people can sit and pay 10 baht an hour,

its the same as having a games place 10 ps2s 10 tvs loads of joysticks because the Thai guys bust them all playing footy games , not worth even thinging about it,

all the best

colino

And this opinion is based on what? Experience or just a nice feeling? BS. Maybe you should instead of thinking the price for one hour compare hours per month to the cost of putting up the business.

As I said, every baht counts. Do spit on the 10 baht if you like, I don't as long as there are many of them.

30 computers x 10-15 baht/per hour + drinks + snacks has made very nicely in the two places I have been dealing with.

I don't like to run a bar since I don't like drinking every day. And the other factor is to provide service to Thais since there are so many...

As I've been a part of 'business' in Thailand, I must say it's NEVER EASY. Don't even think about putting up anything unless you are sure about all the details. The most common mistake is to involve the family and pay extra since it feels so 'cheap'. Every baht counts if one is to survive in the business way.

I have some ideas for free:

1. Buy something and sell it in your home country - always an easy option since now the prices for logistics have dropped significantly

2. Esaan don't have too many internet shops like f.e. Chiang Mai so the return is quite good. 1-1.5 million would do the trick. 10K for rent, 15K for electricity, 15K for staff, income between 80-120K a Month (after expenses). Not great but one can survive.

3. Be a teacher...I know, there are plenty...but its income. No risks. Or get some other job where they need a native Briton (or wherever you were from).

Cheers! Bar I recommend only to those who can run them sober.

I get your drift and accept being in LOS is a double edged sword, just being here means that we are participating in things we may find wrong - but are we really talking about just lowering the tone, hould we not show some courage in the ideal of freedom of speech

You haven't really given much thought to the circumstances in LOS. There are many things that are illegal as subjects of discussion. Unfortunately, there is little we can do about that. I agree with you that there SHOULD be freedom of speech but as you may have noticed that freedom is not completely fulfilled even in the West.

But this thread was about my experience in Phuket not about freedom of speech.

I am a sensitive guy...or at least my stomach is sensitive...er...sometimes. I was eating sort of sour vegetables similar to sour cabbage that my mother in law had made. Sort of Esaan food I suppose. It tasted quite good and since I like sour cabbage I ate a lot.

Afterwards I went walking around the lake, my usual thing during that time. One round is about 45 minutes and I started to feel an urge to relieve myself. Some people can hold it but my stomach is like max 5 minutes before I need to be emptying myself. Well, no toilet anywhere. I started to feel desperate. I walked fast to see if there were any place. The lake is surrounded with quite high fence and I didn't feel sure climbing was a good option at that stage and no restaurants asight.

Well...it came and I went to sit on a bench thinking "What the F##K to do now?" shit leaking from my shorts. The only thing I could come up with was to jump into the lake and try to clean myself and save what was there to be saved. I tried not to look the faces of Thais when I was performing my underwater ballet exercise with my shorts but I could sense their amusement (or maybe horror) and thinking that there goes another "farang bah".

I called my bf and he picked me up with motorbike and STOPPED along the way to chat to some of his friends. This is typical Thai, I suppose, to forget immediately that someone sitting behind you is A. wet B. shitted his pants. I would rather have been anywhere else that evening... sigh...

Anyway, I don't judge anything about gay Thailand, gay circles, or Thai standards of service from the kinds of things that happen in tourist areas- just try to avoid them as much as I can. And I'd put Phuket in a special 'unreal' category along with Pattaya, Patpong/Silom/Sathorn, Samui, and Chiang Mai!!! (loosely speaking).

Are you sure you're not a tourist?

Agreed 100%. I would not have been there without my friends special request anyway.

There is a small tourist inside all of us.

Onni, it's not "gay nightlife" you're asking about. It's "tourist-oriented commercial naughty nightlife"- in Phuket at that. Why worry over it; you're no tourist and there are plenty of normal, functional Thais and Thai places to drink, etc.-

Well, two points here. If it genuinely would be 'tourist-orientated' why they don't try to keep their customers and add value to their services? And what comes to Phuket, I see it as a holiday island that is quite diveded between the town, where people live and the beaches where us farangs stay. For this reason the choice is much between the not-so-nice town or the expensive - and in this case - not so well-performing commercial scene.

The much appreciated Thai smile comes with a bitter aftertaste at least in this case. Granted, I am not tourist in the normal sense but I still would like to get some value for my Baht - after all, I was there like a semitourist!

And I truly hope that I don't run into this kind of behavior in gay circles as a norm.

What comes to my friend he is in his 30's, younger than me and personally I am the type to have late nights when he enjoys swimming and sports early morning (sic!).

Maybe I was misleading, the places were not go-gos rather like beer bars with liberal atttitudes. I was merely trying to sit there and have a glimpse of the street life drinking my beer and not to engage in any short (or long) encounter. The staff should follow what the customer wants and all I wanted was a drink and talk not to observe their skills in the art of massage. What I found extremely rude was that even paying them drinks was not enough just to let me sit there comfortably.

I believe in pleasing the customer and they should too. Its not all about bang-bang and next one in the line.

Basicly I have avoided Patong (and Phuket) since it seems to be place where they try to rip you off without any quality service attached to their offer. I simply prefer other places in Thailand better. Luckily there are plenty.

I have never had a committed long-term relationship with a Thai.

The above makes me think that maybe most of us actually value something more permanent.

I myself am more active than my partner who is not that sexual. We still enjoy the company of eachothers a lot. It might turn quite platonic at some point but who cares? I think we would still stick together. If its all about just sex that I could get anywhere in Thailand without thinking much about it. But I always wonder what we really remember about sex afterwords? Not much I guess but other things can be rather vivid in our minds.

Greetings from Phuket. Visited there since my friend insisted. I knew it would be rather dull since he is not into drinking or late nights or anything unhealthy. Maybe it's because he is younger than I am? Principles and so on.

Anyway, one evening when my friend went to bed at his usual time 9 PM, I left to Patong Beach thinking that it might give me some insight whether Patong has changed during these two years that I have been absent. Well, nothing much. Some new shops, new restaurants that start to be as expensive as in Europe, usual merchants with their pushers and so on. So I decided to have couple of amber liquids poured down my throat and headed to area that could best be described as seedy. Some bars were clean and nice, some rightforward sleezy.

What followed was that in three first places I was forced to ask an early bill and exit since the staff made very clear that they wanted me to go upstairs with them for a massage. When I refused, they simply turned nasty and made remarks. Nice, I had even bought them some beer since I am trying to comfort people. The fact that I can understand some Thai didn't seem to disturb them since they had very bad attitudes.

I could have understood this if it would been jsut one place and its staff but Patong seems to go very bad direction. It wasn't enjoyable couple of years ago and certainly is not now.

Last place I visited gave me some hope, though. There was a guy from Esaan, a region that I inhabit and he was a nice fellow. Witty, pretty and gay, as they sing in a song. Or wherever that was. He saved my evening and thanks to him for that.

I am just wondering is this the direction of gay nightlife in Thailand? Not even an attempt to please? Seeing us as money bags or ATMs? Not a pretty future in my mind.

Any experience guys?