sportsman69

G'day all.

Confirmed he is in Bangkok Phuket Hospital in Yarrawot Rd. Sam Kong Room 741.

Does anybody know the name of the insurance company? Yes !

Before going further. The patient here had exactly what someone recommended on topic http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/567654-insured-but-no-cover/page__st__50.

He had asked Flight centre for a policy, which was booked by their partner insurance co. 'Covermore', Its sold by the 'Flight centre' travel agency franchise, covering every eventuality for a holiday to Thailand after he had booked his ticket on line and heard about the transport problem on Phuket Apparently there is a witness who was with him at the time that he took out and paid for the policy. I think the salesman / lady could be worth a charge of dereliction of duty, causing financial loss. That however that being said doesn't solve the problem of getting this guy repaired or at least sent to affordable medical care.

I have just returned from visiting my friend Alphons on the 7 th floor of BBK Phuket hospital. Grape vine had told me that the patient on this thread, was also on the 7th floor, " just look for the security guard " to prevent him escaping, no need for a room number !

True story. Security guard out front, Sean propped up in bed, tubes everywhere with a face like a balloon waiting for surgery which won't happen by the way until the existing bill of now 550,000 bt and climbing is paid.

I introduced my self as someone with no connection to the case, but one who had heard about his plight here on Thai Visa, a 10 meter deviation on the way out was no problem, and I was interested to help in any way possible.

This guy is a real human being who is in the most expensive hospital through from what I can determine no fault of his own. He initially was taken to Patong hospital, where because of his horrific injuries was then transferred to BBKP. The only reason I can determine why to there ?, being the most expensive hospital on the island, is he and or his family or the insurance company, which was possibly notified and who has since bailed out, was viewed as a cash cow to be milked to the max. HAD THE HOSPITAL KNOWN THAT HE HAD NO INSURANCE or that it would be denied, or a signed guarantor for the soon to be astronomical bill, i doubt he would have ever been admitted.

I believe a police report does not exist as it is usually only the insurance company who would want this to justify a claim, but seeing they have bailed out citing other reasons. the production of a report would only be useful to prosecute the van driver or his insurance, if any. A hospital staffer earlier had suggested no doubt a police report could be found if really necessary. That would mean if the insurance company was to become involved the hospital would need that. This being Thailand you can draw your own conclusions. Whilst there is no report the van driver walks free, someone jokingly mentioned he was probably an off duty cop doing a bit of moonlighting.

My only suggestions were that with maybe a part payment of the amount already due together with a guarantee from a family member endorsed by the NZ govt ( 'cause they can deduct it from your probate if you predecease the payment due, ) He could be free to seek further medical care. I asked his Case Officer, Khun Sunny, what amount would work, she couldn't / wouldn't answer, saying call me back later. I have her phone number. 076 254 425 ext 1230. Try it if you like.

Yep you guessed it 5 mins. f****** around listening to self promotion audio, then, " Solly no one takes your call ". Stating the bleedin' obvious aren't they!! 6 times in the last hour, same result.

Bangkok Phuket international Hospital. If it weren't so tragic it would be JOKE of THE YEAR.

I further suggested that his family / relatives in NZ gather all the facts of the insurance deal and look around for a lawyer prepared to work on a pro bono arrangement. If in fact the facts are true a lawyer worth his salt would take it on.

Not that it makes much difference but he believes it was a 100 cc Honda he rented from the guesthouse where he was staying with his boss also named Sean who is still in town trying to help.

Sean informed me that the hospital is harassing his mother, who he informed me is ill with cancer, by phone on a daily basis, asking " have you paid the money yet ?,he needs another operation as well you know, he can't leave until you do ".

Made obvious by the Wormald security dude at the door 7 /24.

If anybody feels they have good advice or can help in some way (no Steve Mc Queen antics please ) Getting him out of the country presents little or no problem, it's the hospital that's like Fort Knox. where cash is King.

Sean Kenzie and Amy Myles ( GF ) shared phone 08 579 46297

I am privy to other contacts please PM me if needed. I have informed Sean Kenzie about this site as he might be able to gain some useful help or info., so don't be surprised if you see him on here shortly.

I'm sure he would appreciate a visit from anybody, just to cheer him up. He is able to walk carrying the support appliances around. Hence the Security Guard and 140 decibel alarm system. I accidentally pushed a door on the 7th. about a week or so ago on my way out marked EXIT. Christ all hell broke loose. must have been 10 security and 10 or so nurses turned up to capture the escapee. Give it a try, it's the door marked exit at the end.

It brought memories of a dream I once had of letting off a 500 baht string of firecrackers in the MRT subway in Singapore. Probably a hanging offence.

bikkalad, on 2012-07-05 19:59:58, said:

Any pointers to a decent insurance company name then???

they do not exist ...... someone please give me a happy story about an insurance company ( other than a minor car bingle) especially when it comes to personal accident and sickness or travel insurance ... lying thieves .....one rung lower than banks and two below lawyers

______________________________________________________________________

There is one very good insurance company in Oz called 'Covermore'. Its sold by the 'Flight centre' travel agency franchise. They have a box to check when filling out the application for insurance which asks if you want motorcycle insurance cover. They do have a very good reputation for paying out claims...

G'day all.

Before going further. davidst01 The patient here had exactly what you recommended. He had asked Flight centre for a policy covering every eventuality for a holiday to Thailand after he had booked his ticket on line and heard about the transport problem on Phuket Apparently there is a witness who was with him at the time that he took out and paid for the policy. I think the salesman / lady could be worth a charge of dereliction of duty, causing financial loss. That however that being said doesn't solve the problem of getting this guy repaired or at least sent to affordable medical care.

I have just returned from visiting my friend on the 7 th floor of BBK Phuket hospital. Grape vine had told me that the patient on this thread, was also on the 7th floor, " just look for the security guard " to prevent him escaping !

True story. Security guard out front, Sean propped up in bed, tubes everywhere with a face like a balloon waiting for surgery which won't happen by the way until the existing bill of now 550,000 bt and climbing is paid.

I introduced my self as someone with no connection to the case, but one who had heard about his plight here on Thai Visa, a 10 meter deviation on the way out no problem, and was interested to help in any way possible.

This guy is a real human being who is in the most expensive hospital through from what I can determine no fault of his own. He initially was taken to Patong hospital, where because of his horrific injuries was then transferred to BBKP. The only reason I can determine why to there ?, being the most expensive hospital on the island, was that a "commission" was paid and he and or his family or the insurance company, which was possibly notified and who has since bailed out, was viewed as a cash cow to be milked to the max. HAD THE HOSPITAL KNOWN THAT HE HAD NO INSURANCE or that it would be denied, or a signed guarantor, i doubt he would have been admitted.

I believe a police report does not exist as it is usually only the insurance company who would want this to justify a claim, but seeing they have bailed out citing other reasons. the production of a report would only be useful to prosecute the van driver or his insurance, if any. A hospital staffer earlier had suggested no doubt a police report could be found if really necessary. This being Thailand you can draw your own conclusions.

My only suggestions were that with maybe a part payment of the amount already due together with a guarantee from a family member endorsed by the NZ govt ( 'cause they can deduct it from your probate if you predecease the payment due, or pass the debt to the next of kin ) He could be free to seek further medical care. I asked his Case Officer, Sunny, what amount would work, she couldn't / wouldn't answer, saying call me back later. I have her phone number. 076 254 425 ext 1230.

Yep you guessed it 5 mins. f****** around listening to self promotion audio, then, " Solly no one takes your call ". Stating the bleedin' obvious aren't they ! 3 times in the last hour, same result.

Bangkok Phuket international Hospital. If it weren't so tragic it would be JOKE of THE YEAR.

I further suggested that his family / relatives in NZ gather all the facts of the insurance deal and look around for a lawyer prepared to work on a pro bono arrangement. If in fact the facts are true a lawyer worth his salt would take it on.

Not that it makes much difference but he believes it was a 100 cc Honda he rented from the guesthouse where he was staying with his boss also named Sean who is still in town trying to help.

Sean informed me that the hospital is harassing his mother, who he informed me is ill with cancer, by phone on a daily basis, asking " have you paid the money yet ?, he can't leave until you do ".

Made obvious by the Wormald security dude at the door 7 /24.

If anybody feels they have good advise or can help in some way ( no Steve Mc Queen antics please )

Sean Kenzie and Amy Myles ( GF ) shared phone 08 579 46297

I am privy to other contacts please PM me if needed. I have informed Sean Kenzie about this site as he might be able to gain some useful help or info., so don't be surprised if you see him on here shortly

I'll stand to be corrected by the experts but I'd do nothing until I took a sample in a clean container and had it tested for turds. We had our water tested by Vichara Hospital at little cost and it was passed as drinkable. Zero Ecoli, no turds. In essence high quality mineral water after passed through a carbon filter to remove laterite particles. Depending on your location it depends on what the groundwater passes through before it gets to you. Bottom line though I believe is that never plan, dig, test, invest in pumps, whatever at this time of the year. Wait until the trough of the dry season, that will be your worst result for the future and you can plan accordingly. Please allow for future development nearby also. Here, in toyland, nothing much can stop the guy next door putting his shitter next door to your well on the other side of the fence.

Check the history books, most wars have been fought over water, possession or control of.

Well, I took the shared van to Patong from the airport. 150Bt. Ticket counters everywhere as you step out of the baggage claim area. Had to wait 30 min for the van to fill up. We stopped for about 15 min at their office for them to sort out who's going where as they didn't do this at the airport. They attempted to sell accommodation to those without hotel bookings or no idea where they were going. The journey from the time I got on the van to the time I was dropped off at my hotel was about 75 min. All in all not a bad experience.

[........] All in all not a bad experience. Sounds like you were one of the lucky ones.

If it were me I wouldn't call it a good one for a 20 minute trip.

[........] We stopped for about 15 min at their office for them to sort out who's going where as they didn't do this at the airport.

Pretty simple logistics, why not ? Let me guess, all part of the F.../U falang factor.

Sounds like an abbreviated 1/2 day tour. Did they provide lunch ? How long did it take to get the whole circus organized from the time you got to the counter ? Patong's one thing, but to get to Rawai / Nai Harn sounds like an overnighter.

Me. I'm quite happy to get on the light rail link almost to my front door. Mind you there'll be some stiff competition when they get that tunnel open.

Lighten up everybody, Transport problem ?? Nah. no transport, no problem.

Phuket. In February we booked 7 nights in Phuket in August.

The last load of assaults told us loud and clear that under no circumstances is it a safe place for two adults and their 12 year old daughter so last week - we cancelled.

Yes Phuket has beautiful beaches and great scuba diving. We were looking forward to some great golf too. The Thai people are as nice as anywhere.

But it is clear to this little family that the Phuket Police and the local gangsters have "an arrangement."

Tourists are not safe.

When we spoke to our Travel Agent he said there were some problems, but it was not as bad as the papers say it is.

I asked about the Embassy travel advisories. Well it is OK if you stick to the good parts, avoid jet ski and motor boat hire and stay clear of the Bar areas. And what about taxis and tuk tuks? Well you can have some problems with them.

You can keep Phuket now. We have changed to a Samui and Koh Tao mix. The loss of nearly 260 euro in re-arranging our travel is worth the avoidance of such a mafia haven.

Same shit, different Mafia mate. Smaller amount of murders and violent crime, naturally in keeping with a much smaller population, but believe me they do happen, they limit the amount of publicity. Don't rent a motorbike. Oh sorry there's not much alternative, taxis are a rip off. Make sure the speedboat has lifejackets and safety gear, their record is not good. Your daughter should enjoy the full moon party, a good introduction to debauchery for her future life.

Have a nice holiday, check your insurance for any disclaimers, hope you survive OK.

Can only speak from my own case history. Tiger Airways. July 27 caught 09.25 HKT to Sing. Back HKT19.00 same day. Airfare was 3,500, have seen it as low as 3,100 baht all in. There was a + 400b credit card charge which wouldn't apply if you paid by other means. What I saved on buying a new phone here in Phuket paid for the round trip.

You toddler doesn't have to leave so a friend or a day care centre may be an option there but may be free on lap.

You could also be a bit cheeky by overstaying a day which at the airport they usually waive the 500 baht fee..

Best part is you will get another 30 days on return.

bookingtigerairways.com

The guy sounds like he was being a bit of a daredevil if I read it correctly. I would be interested to see if the insurance company covers him as well but I guess they are if they flew him to Bangkok, that isn't cheap. Does Phuket not have any decent hospitals?

Overall probably better and cheaper than trying to get him repaired here.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/567654-insured-but-no-cover/

Post # 20 Only my first hand experience, it don't come much better than that. The rels. in Holland have yet to be informed and give their permission.

Am i missing something here... Why does he pay the bill if a van hit him??? surely he should pay nothing as not at fault

The van probably didn't have insurance ... if they know the van that hit him at all.

The van probably did not stop, but most likely did have insurance, at a minimum the compulsory 3rd party insurance.

[.........] works in UK fine. This aint the UK Mr. Huayrat. live here for a while you''ll realise that

Not if he was pissed. Zero. Did a runner Thai style. Mr Kenzie should have had 100 % cover, for whatever reason he did not. Insurance companies are not renowned the most compassionate organisations. They make big money by not paying out. Stiff shit for Mr Kenzie and his family unfortunately. Not trying to be cruel about the matter, just reiterating facts.

I agree its the unscrupulous policyholders who make false claims who have there claims refused

and there are plenty of those around

Yes, seems to be the Australian national sport of those that come to Phuket.

WOOHA ! Mate. Were talking about a bit of insurance scamology as practised by every nationality on earth. Are you saying the Brits aren't into this also ?

At least we don't come here and stick knives in girlfriends and American ex service men who win a fair fight and kill them like the Brits, Aldhouse and Mick the Pom.

Is that the British national sport?

I feel sorry for the young man. I guess he should have read the policy. But the travel agent/insurance salesman should have mentioned it, one would think.

She was also concerned that he may not be able to leave Thailand until the bill was paid.

Read more: http://www.watoday.c...l#ixzz1zjpQU3gI

I would say that is a big concern as I'm pretty sure he won't be able to leave until his bill is paid.

Today I was talking to, I guess you would call her " guest relations manager " in the matter of...

http://www.thaivisa....huket-hospital/

Part of the conversation was her statement " that most people regard us as a hospital, that we may well be but first of all we are a business and like any other ensure, by whatever means, that our patients debts will be paid before discharge.

Blunt Facts.

I have heard that in some cases that if you have had a motorbike accident ( NOT INSURED) they alter the paperwork to make it look that you have had some other type of accident that you can claim on.

I wouldn't doubt this in the slightest. Anything they can do to make money is fair game to them. Easier to pad the bill as well. You must remember this is Thailand where money is next to God especially where some poor banged up farang is involved.

Being intellectually challenged I was faced with the same dilemma only that I was upgrading from a Nokia 12 yrs old. Virtually everyone I talked to said forget the Iphone, rubbish dumps are full of them, virtually unrepairable. I wanted something built like a brick shit-house, gorilla glass etc, the works. Most recommended was a Samsung Galaxy S2 even by those that also had a S3. Slightly smaller, lighter and 5,000 cheaper. Priced in Phuket, 17,500, got in Sing. during a visa run for 14,000. Paid for the air fare. Happy camper !

Slowly learning how to drive it but if you've had a smartphone already the transition shouldn't be too difficult. Also bought a 2,800 mAh battery piggy back case, = total 2.1/2 days use, extra1600 baht. No brainer,

I guess it will do everything except ................................wash your clothes.

Stevenl.

I truly applaud your efforts. If I was able my hand would be up. I am not a diver but have skippered boats with divers on board, so I can agree with your principles. Not trying to rain on your parade but I would like to ask 2 questions that spring to mind from a layman's point of view.

1. This is not a pleasure dive as such to look at the reef and the fish and get hours on the log. It is to clean up the rubbish left by others with no regard to the natural environment. It is work, whether voluntary or not, that could also be done by Thais. To read the law I believe a work permit would be required or has a government dispensation been granted in this case? Some problems after the tsunami spring to mind.

2. Especially with regard to a current thread running about insurance, are participants entitled to any cover if in the unfortunate event of an accident, especially considering the work ethic involved. If so which company is underwriting the project ? I believe, but not certain, that those involved in the annual voluntary Sydney beach clean up are covered by an insurance sponsor. Cuts, broken glass, dirty needles etc,

As I said this is from a layman's point of view which regards prevention is better than cure. I am not trying to open a can of worms.

Enjoy your 15 days of fried pork and sticky rice.

You obviously have not had the pleasure of being a resident, " fried pork and sticky rice." Never.

Main diet is fish frame or fish head soup, sometimes you might get soup made with chicken frames, heads and feet, sparingly served with indigestible 1/2 cooked cheapest rice. No seconds ! No red wine! As much unfiltered tap water as you wish, all in keeping with the rent you pay for 7 sq ft of sleeping space. Drinkable bottled water is available from the shop. It's a bit akin to hospital food, survival rations only. Anything with any form of nutrition such a Ma Ma noodles or 7 baht sardines for 20 baht, has to be purchased from the prison shop from your prison bank a/c funded by the rellies. Outside food is usually spoilt beyond recognition or consumption in the search for implements or drugs. Get an orange, apple or bananas sent in, you will get the skin. I think the " growing of vegetables for the main prison " is a myth. If any are grown they would be for the consumption of prison staff. Phuket Shangri-La it is not.

It may be better at Bang Jo, but for her sake, I hope not.

[......] Organizers will be keeping a close eye on the weather leading up to the drills.

Can't go to war unless the weather if favourable, what a bunch of pussies and waste of taxpayers money. Don't rely on the airport radar for an accurate report !

Go Rambo Go !

My laptop and Tea Money were in my suitcase, its about this big, I left it in your taxi! No general you are mistaken, there were some grease stains on the seat but that was all I found in my taxi after I dropped you off.

I've been told my sense of humour is slightly above average but hats off to you on this one.

Mate, that's Classic. 110%

Please refer to the latest.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/567654-insured-but-no-cover/#entry5457377

Post # 20

Has anyone any constructive ideas of rest homes, private accommodation, etc. We believe we can organise 24 hr nurses aide type care. Medivac back home is not an option.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I have been in touch with the Dutch Consul but until his family contact him He can only work within the framework of his powers.

Stafford.

I feel sorry for the young man. I guess he should have read the policy. But the travel agent/insurance salesman should have mentioned it, one would think.

She was also concerned that he may not be able to leave Thailand until the bill was paid.

Read more: http://www.watoday.c...l#ixzz1zjpQU3gI

I would say that is a big concern as I'm pretty sure he won't be able to leave until his bill is paid.

Today I was talking to, I guess you would call her " guest relations manager " in the matter of...

http://www.thaivisa....huket-hospital/

Part of the conversation was her statement " that most people regard us as a hospital, that we may well be but first of all we are a business and like any other ensure, by whatever means, that our patients debts will be paid before discharge.

Blunt Facts.

I was going to say in my first post that I hope he's not staying at Bangkok Phuket Hospital... You've hit the nail on the head as far as their "care" is concerned. Money!

Yea Jimmy.

Not yet privy to the real figures yet but I'm led to believe 200,000 B went pretty quick for the first week.

No ICU, no theatre, a few tests and X rays, private room. a few shots of morphine. To add insult to injury I arrived 2 days ago to visit and found him out of bed slumped on the floor. Went back 5 rooms to the nurses station, NO ONE there. Yelled at the top of my voice for 2 minutes before anyone came. It was a security guard to see what the commotion was about. Another 2 minutes before a nurse arrived then another 2 minutes before another. The 3 of us got him back into bed.15 mins later the doctor arrived and said what's the problem? GRRRR. Those that know me can imagine the payout.

Alpons told me he was pressing his buzzer for 2 or 3 mins. cause he wanted a piss and when no one came tried to make it to the loo. The poor guys in Gods waiting room, cant even stand up, let alone walk. That night they tied him to the bed. We have since organised 24 hr observatory attention.

Answer from the hospital rep. " Well we can't be expected to supervise our patients 24 hrs a day "

My answer was no, of course not, but at 30,000 baht a day plus plus you can be expected to have a nurse at the floor station to answer the call button.

Contemplating moving him elsewhere.

Yep Money. Money. Money. Sorry not enough, give us more.

End of rant.

When your travel insurance does not cover riding a scooter (being the actual person in control of the bike) does this also

include motorbike taxis?

Iv'e never ridden on one because of the inherent danger, not because I'm uninsured. Insurance doesn't bring you back to life anyway. I would assume other than it being specifically stated as being OK it would be a No No. The Company would say sue the drivers insurance. say no more.

I wouldn't like to put it to the test but I guess a bit like going for a tandem skydive. If your policy says " no jumping out of planes " that's it cut and dried. As I said in the post above, despite what you read in the policy or are told buy the salesman, their legal department has far more resources than yours.

Any pointers to a decent insurance company name then???

they do not exist ...... someone please give me a happy story about an insurance company ( other than a minor car bingle) especially when it comes to personal accident and sickness or travel insurance ... lying thieves .....one rung lower than banks and two below lawyers

I couldn't agree more. In any town or city the most palatial buildings belong to insurance companies.

Where does all this wealth come from ? the mug who believes they are " fully insured" and finds out otherwise. A 20 floor insurance company will probably have 1/5 of their floor space solely devoted to their legal department, whose sole job it is to ensure a payout, if any, is a small as possible. They have unlimited resources to fight any claim you might have. They are true scum of the earth. Bookmakers without controls.

BTW. You forgot to mention, in a class well above insurance are doctors and plumbers. Doctors have a snake entwined around a sceptre as their logo and bury their mistakes. Plumbers have a snake around a drainpipe as theirs and blame the blockage on anything other than what it is....

I feel sorry for the young man. I guess he should have read the policy. But the travel agent/insurance salesman should have mentioned it, one would think.

She was also concerned that he may not be able to leave Thailand until the bill was paid.

Read more: http://www.watoday.c...l#ixzz1zjpQU3gI

I would say that is a big concern as I'm pretty sure he won't be able to leave until his bill is paid.

Today I was talking to, I guess you would call her " guest relations manager " in the matter of...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/566999-alpons-room-706-bkk-phuket-hospital/

Part of the conversation was her statement " that most people regard us as a hospital, that we may well be but first of all we are a business and like any other ensure, by whatever means, that our patients debts will be paid before discharge.

Blunt Facts.

we have to take responsibly for our own actions, if had to get from patong to Rawai of coarse i'd want the best deal, it's no excuse to say i got scammed because i was legless. i've always negotiated a price i'm happy with, got there, paid, happy camper

If a bar girl goes back with you and robs you, who's to blame, the bar girl cos she's a thief or you for indulging in a activity that the law in Thailand see as illegal. who'd get prosecuted the worst out of the two

Ok, so, tell me about your last tuk-tuk negotiation? When was it and from where to where did you go and how much did you pay?

What advice would you give to your backpacker friends (mentioned in another thread recently) about how to travel around Phuket and see all the beaches and sights?

Give him time to respond. I think he's stuck in waist deep mud in Patong

http://www.thaivisa....75#entry5456925

Post # 77 and trying to find who's responsible.............

Don't know about bars or it being to severe but apparently she's been moved to Bang Jo already. That's a prison farm Nth island where they grow veggies. for the "Big House". With a bit of luck one or two of the dikes in there might find her " attractive " and give her something to think about.

Apparently her boyfriend who stuck by her during her "ordeal " of sentence and appeal, has stuck by her even 'till now. The guys either got no brains or as we say in OZ, " She must be a helluva good root." Then again I guess not too many 20+ guys think with their big head. Like attracts like.

Any connection with Phuket?

No need to get snotty. None whatsoever except this story is in Phuket news, so just drawing a comparison.

Who is drawing a comparison? All I'm saying is, why is this thread in the Phuket news. Makes no sense at all.

Maybe the Blues Brothers can answer that. Certainly .

"Ranong has the heaviest year-to-date rainfall in the 125-station TMD monitoring network, with 2,477mm recorded through yesterday."

2477 mm is 2.477 meter!!! And that is only for yesterday....

Of course I am not saying they are wrong (they are Thai and I am just an ignorant farang), but somehow I doubt 2.5 m rain. Actually I just do not believe it

Amazing Thailand indeed

I think they are wrong too. I think year to date means the start of the year, whatever that is to a Thai, until now. 2.47 seems a good number.

I do however remember about 30 years ago in Cairns Nth. Queensland we had 51/2 feet of rain, that's 1.7 meters in 72 hrs.!! That's over 27 mm per hour average. At times it was 75 mm per hour! Yes there was major flooding but not at our place. No power for a week. We lived beachfront, but couldn't get to town, no problem, kick the gen set into life and dinghy instead of car.

Any connection with Phuket?

No need to get snotty. None whatsoever except this story is in Phuket news, so just drawing a comparison.