ianguygil

To chip in again.

The award was given to the man. All the criticism here is of the company, not the man.

To those of us who know him, even indirectly, he is clearly capable, honest, dedicated and determined. Nobody can expect him to turn such a large company around in 2 years, but he has made a definite start by reorganizing, setting direction, cleaning up (where required) and enabling those who are capable.

So disagreeing with this award given to Dr. Piyasvasti the person because the company still has problems makes no sense. To me at least. The person has not been born who could have completely turned this company around in such a short period.

Another alternative (why not give to both!) is the PDA run by Khun Meechai - yes, Mr Condom. As with Father Joe he is pragmatic, effective and eithical.

Their link for the US entity is ttp://www.pdi-global.org/how2donate.asp

Top buisiness man of the year............Joke.........Compare airlines. Most people I know-who used to travel Thai--NOW travel--Emirates,Etihad,Eva,Jet/india,Qatar,..........These have relatively new aircraft, service,of good standard. But most of all----PRICE.................apart from promotions...the few I mentioned --ranges from 29k...to 35k.........into europe. in,flight entertainment, up to date--Thai near non existant........and their price--ask the Thai office. my last enquiry quote 49k return.......they have now got stuffy attitudes-and food provided is now of poor standard. I am speaking of coarse Economy.......as most people travel on.................what the well off gentry get for their B/1st class I wouldn,t know.......................Time to get your prices down Thai, I do believe you have new aircraft on order,,, are you not a little late ??????.....these airliners should have been ordered long ago.....average age fleet over 12 years. some of the 747 400s have been flying now near 20 years, maybe you could get some 707s to help out in the meentime.

I think the point here is that he is there to turn around the operation and that this turnaround is still in process. Everybody I know who has worked with him in the past say he is an incredibly capable person. I had a problem on a THAI flight coming back from London in late October on business and complained and he got personally involved. So while the turnaround is in process, he is one of the few really qualified people who can pull this off. I flew with them internationally yesterday on a personal trip over the weekend and I agree they have a long way to go, the 747 must have been 18 years old or more, not comparable at all to SQ or CX or NH. But as they bring the new fleet onboard this will all improve. I flew one of their new 777 they leased from JET a few months ago coming back from Narita and it was excellent. So while his first priority was to stop the hemorrhage as they were losing so much cash. Now they are profitable. It is a standard turnaround story in any compay in any industry. We should give him time and our support as it is in all our interest for him to succeed. if we live in Thailand.

**BUMP**

Can any forex expert out there tell me what to do? Please only refer to the post above this one (Post #19).

THX

Change your THB to EUR. Then change EUR to the Koruna as much as you need. Almost definitely they will accept the EUR there anyway. It is such a small currency.

Very unlikely you will get many banks here offering a direct THB to Koruna rate.

I know this is 2 conversions. But it is much better in terms of your time and the effective rate you will get.

Since you have obviously made up your mind that your going to save a whopping .15 THB X 70,000 using this cash and carry method and not one person here has done the same, I say go for it, with our best wishes, that you don't leave it in a taxi coming in from the airport

Actually one person who replied said they brought in $200k. I have also received pm's from a 2 people saying they where bringing in over 30k USD of cash.

Again .15 THB x 70,000 is $350 USD....it's not a small sum for doing this easy activity that maybe takes you an additional hour of work. People do far more work for much less. People cut coupons to save 25 cents, so I don't know why you would make this comment. Do you make over $350/hr working (plus the fees aren't tax deductible, so it's reasonable to assume that unless you make over $500/hr it's still a smart decision to carry cash)?

I am VERY interested tho in these preferential Treasury Rates. Can anyone confirm that they ARE in fact lower and can anyone provide any solid numbers. How much lower? I am sure it varies based on the current situation, but if enough people contribute data points we can have a better idea of the savings....but I am skeptical that calling ahead to arrange a rate is anything more than a simple forward currency contract that locks in a rate. Is there any guarantee that the locked in rate will be BETTER than the actual rate at the time of the transaction? or could it go both ways? I assume I can just call the foreign currency desk at BBL or any other bank to get a quote.

This is one of the major roles a Treasury plays in a bank.

Simply put, it is the difference between the "Retail" rate and the "Wholesale" rate. While the savings may be relatively small in terms of percentage, they add up for large transactions.

The discussion of Spot or Forward is a separate issue. You get a Forward to manage risk. There are no guarantees that the market will not move in the other direction.

If you have a large transaction it will automatically go the a dealer if it is above the limit set for retail transactions. That is so the Bank can monitor their currency positions in each currency and decide on the rates if they are accumulating more than they want relative to the demand they can see in the future. If you want to get a better rate it is best to contact the bank and discuss. But that is really up to you.

I think it would be a HUGE amount of work for people to say what the rate they received was compared to the "Retail" street rate. But good luck if you can get it. But I think you understand that it makes sense that it will be better in general to go Wholesale rather than Retail.

Why not open a Bangkok Bank account? ( If you dont already have one )

Then you transfer from Bangkok Bank UK London Branch direct to Thailand

I do the same from the USA using Bangkok Bank NY

I 've done the Paypal to Paypal and the rates are terrible. I do the Bangkok bank NY transfer now, much cheaper, but u must have a Bangkok bank acct. in Thailand.

Totally correct that for the automated transfer setup using ACH in the US or BACS in the UK, you need a Bank account with us at BBL.

It is always possible to send money using what is called in "Banker Speak" PUPID, which means Pay Upon Proper ID. If you plan to be here you can send the funds to yourself to pickup at Bangkok Bank as long as you show the right ID which is specified in the payment message (i.e. your passport). This is something which provides some flexibility for those who are traveling around the world and do not want to use ATMs or open up accounts.

PUPID is a very normal industry standard term. Not just specific to Bangkok Bank.

It's pretty insidious in my estimation. Every place charges fees, and then there is the currency conversion and its divergence from the interbank rate. There are places that have very low fees, but often you get a terrible rate at conversion. Often it's really hard to even figure out what the fees are and what the rate is.

I have found a Credit Union near me that (as long as I keep a minimum of $2k in it all month, will let me use the ATM in Thailand to remove money. Now Visa charges a 1% overall fee, then there is the ATM fee(s) then there is the currency conversion rate. This Credit Union rebates all the fees to me, and I believe (but won't know till the end of the month till I do it) that the currency conversion rate is about the same that the banks here charge.

The fella's idea about the Bangkok bank in London is a good one, though I tried doing that once with a Philippine bank in New York and eventually gave up in frustration because they kept screwing it up.

The process to arrange this via our London branch is very simple. This is a very popular service for our customers. If you run into any problems you can always PM me. Thanks

Ian

Sent you a PM in response to yours. Please email me at the Bank if you do not get what you need from calling 1333. Thanks.

Ian

Just to be clear to everybody....

If you are wiring in a large amount, over 50,000 USD or equivalent, you can ask for the Treasury in BBL to assign a preferential rate, one which is better than the street rate shown on our site and at our FX booths. Rather than bringing a bag full of cash, this approach would be more secure, cheaper and definitely better for your back

You really need to arrange this one before you send the money if possible. Please PM me if you need more details. Thanks :jap:

Ian

That's good advice, in my experience the threshold for a preferential Treasury Dept rate from BBL or HSBC is much lower, around GBP 12k will do the trick.

50,000 USD is our current floor for this. I checked with our head of Global Payments to get the exact number just before I did that post yesterday. But it never hurts to try to a slightly lower number.

Please PM me with any confidential questions. Thanks.

Just to be clear to everybody....

If you are wiring in a large amount, over 50,000 USD or equivalent, you can ask for the Treasury in BBL to assign a preferential rate, one which is better than the street rate shown on our site and at our FX booths. Rather than bringing a bag full of cash, this approach would be more secure, cheaper and definitely better for your back

You really need to arrange this one before you send the money if possible. Please PM me if you need more details. Thanks :jap:

Ian

All ATMs I use have camera surveillance installed near the top of the machine. The bank should have photos of the person who made the withdrawals if you have the date and time of the transaction on your statement.

Skimming is a big problem here. ATMS can be rigged with an add-on in front of the card slot that copies the magnetic strip as you insert it through the add-on into the real ATM slot. The added part is small and painted to match the ATM so it will be detected by only the very alert. Also, at the same time a very thin add on is placed over the ATM keyboard so that the pin is also captured by the add on as it actually allows the keys underneath it to be pushed. There are other ways but that's the most common one used in Thailand. Here are photos of how it works:

A normal looking ATM:

Fake keyboard:

Fake card reader (2):

Excellent photos. Great evidence to see how convincing these things can look.

(...)

Oh, and I don't use free-standing ATM's connecting by cable or wifi to who-knows-where, but only those built into walls, preferrably of bank branches. This reduces the risk of data interception during transmission, I believe. Looking forward to ianguygil's input whether this precaution is necessary.

Our ATMs are encrypted from endpoint to endpoint, so it would be pretty hard to intercept the data whatever the transport (wifi, phone line, cell phone network). We use strong encryption so it would be almost impossible (or statistically improbable) to brute force the data stream.

Thanks, that is good to hear. However, I obviously don't know who you mean by "our ATMs". Would you think it is fair to say that this is true for all ATMs in Thailand, or would you make exceptions?

I think the major risk of an ATM in less populated or controlled location is for somebody to install the actual skimming device which copies the card. If they try to do some "maintenance" on an ATM in or near a Bank branch they will probably have a large Bank guard with an even larger Bank gun asking them what they are doing.Most ATMs have the anti-skimming devices on them now, but some customers are really not observant and may not see something unusual installed on the slot where their card goes into the ATM.

Yes, this has been in the news often enough. If I am not sure the ATM is designed to have a "thing" at the slot for the card, I don't use it. Incidentally, BBL ATMs confused me, but I see that they all look the same, so that should be OK.

Can you post a picture (or a link to a picture) of an ATM with a skimming device? I don't know what to look for.

I really can not speak for the other banks and the security measures they take. But I would excpect that they all do the same.

I will look for a picture, more likely a site on ATM skimming devices.

Just to add my two-pence: Never had "mystery withdrawals" and would alert bank and police if that happened. I am definiotely and postively not cool about it.

I hide my hand when entering the PIN code, and change the PIN code regularly.

There were no ATMs in Thailand when I moved here, so I have been with them from the beginning. Banks include BBL, SCB and TFB (the latter now called Kasikorn).

Oh, and I don't use free-standing ATM's connecting by cable or wifi to who-knows-where, but only those built into walls, preferrably of bank branches. This reduces the risk of data interception during transmission, I believe. Looking forward to ianguygil's input whether this precaution is necessary.

Our ATMs are encrypted from endpoint to endpoint, so it would be pretty hard to intercept the data whatever the transport (wifi, phone line, cell phone network). We use strong encryption so it would be almost impossible (or statistically improbable) to brute force the data stream.

I think the major risk of an ATM in less populated or controlled location is for somebody to install the actual skimming device which copies the card. If they try to do some "maintenance" on an ATM in or near a Bank branch they will probably have a large Bank guard with an even larger Bank gun asking them what they are doing. Most ATMs have the anti-skimming devices on them now, but some customers are really not observant and may not see something unusual installed on the slot where their card goes into the ATM.

It would have to be an error in the bank accounting system (Core Banking) or in the ATM. Unlikely but possible, but it would show up in the balancing process as more money would show on the books as having been handed to customers than was actually handed out.

Yes, that makes sense. What about actual withdrawals where the money is given to the wrong person or the wrong account is debited, can the bank detect those? In that situation the person who uses the ATM gets the money they ask for. The person whose account was debited will claim they didn't take any money out, but the bank books will balance. So presumably the bank will assume that it is the customer who is at fault?

There is a VERY tight link between the ATM card and the accounts. So I don't really see how that can happen. But as I say it is just software so it would need to be a programming and testing error. I think that is hugely unlikely though.

Please note that all the major Thai banks use Western software to run their ATM and Core Banking systems. The same as your banks in the, US, UK and Oz use.

Long story cut short. my cards were removed and replaced in a Hotel in Vientiane. I only discoverd this about four days later, due to some missing cash that was inthe same bag. Reported the suspected copying and had a security lock put on them. ie cannot now be used unless I phone company first.

Two months later, after returning home, had a letter off the bank telling me ATM card was used in Nong Khai. They had no way of knowing PIN, couldnt even tell it t you myself, just comes automatically when I go to ATM. So how did they know it? No idea

All Im saying is the crooks sometimes appear to wait a long time before they use a cloned card.

If you have used the ATM card in Laos or in Nong Khai, somebody may have filmed you entering the PIN (or just observed). So if it happened like this it would need for you to be targeted and for a gang to include somebody in the hotel.

Please remember that the average ATM PIN is 4 digits. So they would have only a 1 in 9,999 chance of guessing your PIN.

Always stand up very close to the ATM when you enter your PIN. Close it off so it is not easy to film or observe from a distance. Always look to see if there is a small camera anywhere on the ATM as you all know how small webcams can be nowadays.

Please remember, I am an IT guy and a banker.

Ian, as an IT guy and a banker, how often do "phantom withdrawals" where there is no human involvement, happen?

It would have to be an error in the bank accounting system (Core Banking) or in the ATM. Unlikely but possible, but it would show up in the balancing process as more money would show on the books as having been handed to customers than was actually handed out.

So, it is possible, but highly unlikely in a modern bank with rigorous testing processes, and it would show up during reconciliation.

Anybody who has had unauthorized withdrawals from their account should treat this as an urgent matter. do not spend time on this forum. First call the Bank and block the card, as somebody may have skimmed your card. Second, go to the bank in question and report it. They will take you through all the next steps as far as police reporting etc. Never just live with the fact that unexplained withdrawals are being made. If somebody has in fact skimmed your card they can use it as often as they want!

The real protection for this is to use the whole Chip and PIN approach, which makes it effectively impossible to skim the card as they cannot skim the Chip. But that is a huge investment and undertaking as all ATMs need to be upgraded (and there are tens of thousands of ATMs in this country) and the hundreds of thousands of EDC (merchant) terminals also need to be upgraded. So while we have started to issue Chip and PIN cards, it needs to be a nationwide effort for all banks, not a bank by bank approach, as the ATM pool (use of other bank ATMs) would just offer a back door for criminals.

Please note that this nation wide approach was the approach taken in the UK. And during the interim, while the migration was in process, they actually had an increase in fraud.

To amplify my original post, I have, to date, been the victim of 3 phantom ATM withdrawals:-

(1) 20,000 THB from my Krung Thai account in January 2009

(2) 10,000 THB from my Krung Thai account last June

(3) 20,000 THB from my Kasikorn account on 22 November

Both Krung Thai cases were clearly isolated incidents since neither was followed over the next few days by further mystery debits suggesting fraudulent use of my ATM card. I gather that the lifetime of a cloned card is normally only a couple of days at most. In any event, I live in a small village between Ban Phe and Klaeng in Rayong Province, which is somewhat off the beaten track from hotspot fraud areas such as Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and Samui.

The recent Kasikorn case has already been reported to both my local branch and Bangkok HQ. I have now instigated regular (i.e. at least once daily) checks of my account with the K-Cyberbanking online facility, and the latest check which I have just made has not revealed any subsequent untoward transactions. Since 9 days have now elapsed since the latest phantom withdrawal, it is looking increasingly likely that this, too, is an isolated incident.

Without being difficult here, the lifetime of a cloned card is as long as the lifetime of a normal card if you do not get the original card cancelled. This is just like copying a disk, if the binaries match it is the same card to a machine (ATM).

Please remember, I am an IT guy and a banker. This is not an opinion. There is nothing transient about an cloned ATM card. It is just that people normally notice the money is missing and cancel the card within "only a couple of days at most"

Anybody who has had unauthorized withdrawals from their account should treat this as an urgent matter. do not spend time on this forum. First call the Bank and block the card, as somebody may have skimmed your card. Second, go to the bank in question and report it. They will take you through all the next steps as far as police reporting etc. Never just live with the fact that unexplained withdrawals are being made. If somebody has in fact skimmed your card they can use it as often as they want!

The real protection for this is to use the whole Chip and PIN approach, which makes it effectively impossible to skim the card as they cannot skim the Chip. But that is a huge investment and undertaking as all ATMs need to be upgraded (and there are tens of thousands of ATMs in this country) and the hundreds of thousands of EDC (merchant) terminals also need to be upgraded. So while we have started to issue Chip and PIN cards, it needs to be a nationwide effort for all banks, not a bank by bank approach, as the ATM pool (use of other bank ATMs) would just offer a back door for criminals.

Please note that this nation wide approach was the approach taken in the UK. And during the interim, while the migration was in process, they actually had an increase in fraud.

I would not be too confident to be able to withdraw cash with a Thai Visa-debit-Card, even if your bank or the VISA-website says so.

For some reason, European banks are EXTREMELY careful when it comes to "plastic" from Asia.

I would recommend you to bring quite a lot of Euro, which of course you have already bought in Thailand, because I am sure you do not like to change BAHT in Europe at 40% loss

As I said I travel a lot and I used by BBL card in multiple European countries last year, and in the US, and in Japan at Citi, and in China, Singapore, Malaysia, New Zealand and a few other countries. No problem.

You should always exchange into Baht and out of Baht in Thailand. As this is not a widely traded currency, the rates offshore are horrendous

It really depends how much you want. Any large Bangkok Bank FX booth would have several thousand Euros. If you need more, please just come to the Head Office. If it is a very large amount (over 20,000 USD equivalent I think) you will need to tell them where you go the THB from. This is just anti money laundering, which helps to control terrorist financing. So as an American I am sure you will support this.

To really be sure, if it is a large amount, please call our HO in advance to "reserve" the banknotes. You can also PM me in advance and we can make such arrangements.

I sure the hell hope I don't need 20,000 USD (or even close) for just a 2 week European trip! I will go to my bank here and get the Euros. Will I be able to withdrawal more Euros from my Thai bank while in Europe though an ATM?

Now it is a little more clear how long you will be there I can give a more relevant answer.

I get to Europe on business a few times a year and once or twice to see family

.

I normally pick up the currency I need in Bangkok to last me at least half of the trip. I pay most large bills on a BBL credit card as it is much more convenient and there is more protection. And I use my BBL ATM card to withdraw cash, usually from NATIONWIDE when I am in the UK (I realise the UK is not in the Euro). There are similar ATMs which do not charge in continental Europe but they are harder to find.

So my rule is to use cash for the small things when in the Euro zone and use my BBL Credit Card for the large things.

Be warned, I was once given a 500 Euro note in BKK when leaving on business. Nobody would accept it except a bank. And even then with much complaining and checking of the banknote.

Great info. Thanks.

What can I look for on the Euro (Austria mainly) ATM to see if it charges? I have no credit card, will have to be debit cards with the Visa logo. They say they are supposed to work just like a Visa credit card but some place and a lot of websites wont accept them.

Please use this link to locate ATMs around the world on the VISA network

http://visa.via.info...locator/global/

You should always exchange into Baht and out of Baht in Thailand. As this is not a widely traded currency, the rates offshore are horrendous

It really depends how much you want. Any large Bangkok Bank FX booth would have several thousand Euros. If you need more, please just come to the Head Office. If it is a very large amount (over 20,000 USD equivalent I think) you will need to tell them where you go the THB from. This is just anti money laundering, which helps to control terrorist financing. So as an American I am sure you will support this.

To really be sure, if it is a large amount, please call our HO in advance to "reserve" the banknotes. You can also PM me in advance and we can make such arrangements.

I sure the hell hope I don't need 20,000 USD (or even close) for just a 2 week European trip! I will go to my bank here and get the Euros. Will I be able to withdrawal more Euros from my Thai bank while in Europe though an ATM?

Now it is a little more clear how long you will be there I can give a more relevant answer.

I get to Europe on business a few times a year and once or twice to see family

.

I normally pick up the currency I need in Bangkok to last me at least half of the trip. I pay most large bills on a BBL credit card as it is much more convenient and there is more protection. And I use my BBL ATM card to withdraw cash, usually from NATIONWIDE when I am in the UK (I realise the UK is not in the Euro). There are similar ATMs which do not charge in continental Europe but they are harder to find.

So my rule is to use cash for the small things when in the Euro zone and use my BBL Credit Card for the large things.

Be warned, I was once given a 500 Euro note in BKK when leaving on business. Nobody would accept it except a bank. And even then with much complaining and checking of the banknote.

You should always exchange into Baht and out of Baht in Thailand. As this is not a widely traded currency, the rates offshore are horrendous

It really depends how much you want. Any large Bangkok Bank FX booth would have several thousand Euros. If you need more, please just come to the Head Office. If it is a very large amount (over 20,000 USD equivalent I think) you will need to tell them where you go the THB from. This is just anti money laundering, which helps to control terrorist financing. So as an American I am sure you will support this.

To really be sure, if it is a large amount, please call our HO in advance to "reserve" the banknotes. You can also PM me in advance and we can make such arrangements.

Thanks to all those saying kind words, as a banker we do not hear them very often since the events of recent years I agree that many bankers in the UK and US were shown to be a total disgrace, so I am not defending them in any way.

If you have any problems with the application, please let me know via PM. I always deal with customer issues offline to protect your privacy, then you can post whatever you feel is right.

This is always a trickly balance, between customer convenience and protecting customers from identity theft. Some other banks have had serious problems with identity theft when they take a much loser approach. So we need to move prudently towards making registration and activation more and more convenient while maintaining the balance against online fraud.

Good luck.

Ian

My Be1st card is about 2 years old and has no security numbers on the signature strip (is that what you mean by cw?). Do newer Be1st cards have that?

Not from what I've seen. Now, in the past Bangkok Bank did put those CW something on the back of the card for online usage. My friend told me in order to get that card, he had to get one which had his picture on it, meaning he had to order it.

What Philip (PKRV) and Dave (daveroc) have said is correct. You do not need to order the special card to be able to use it online. Please just follow their advice. If you need any help from the Bank directly please PM me.

Ian

Wow, a couple of different items here I need to address. As always I will disclose that I work for Bangkok Bank.

Thai banks will allow you to send money out from your THB account and will convert it to the currency you request. It is very important for you that you have them convert to USD here, not abroad, as the THB is not a widely traded currency and if you have it converted offshore in most cases your rate will be very poor.

And yes you do need to prove where the funds came from in most cases depending on the amount, if you earned them here, or if you transferred them in before and are now repatriating them.

Now to correct something said here. Any major bank will allow you to send funds out of Thailand from a foreign currency account in that currency. There is normally a small charge in lieu of the FX spread which is normally a fraction of a percent. We offer the largest choice of Foreign Currency accounts, 13 at my last reading. It is not correct that you have to do a USD-THB-USD dual conversion. That is just not how it works.

Please PM me if you need some help in doing this with us. Thanks

Ian