Avocado Trees available March 2018

[DumbFalang]

Just a heads up for anyone that's interested. We have already grown hundreds of rootstock and will be grafting 4 varieties (will confirm later) of Avocado onto them some time around New Year. Healing should take 4-6 weeks and young trees could be available possibly as early as the end of February. I will update this thread from time to time but anyone is welcome to add "expressions of interest" in the meantime.

[JimmyTheMook]

Good luck, would be great to see these readily available and more affordable in Thailand.

 

 

[ezzra]

What type of avocado are they? Hass, lamb-Hass, Pinktorn, Fuetre,

Bacon....

[DumbFalang]

Haas, Peterson and Buccaneer are the known varieties at the moment. Will try to get other varieties between now and December.

 

There will be a 4th variety that is unknown (locals call it green emerald), but I ate some myself this season and they were the best I tasted all year.  I could do Booth 7, but only if specifically requested.

 

Let me know if you are interested in any specific varieties and I'll see what I can do.

[djayz]

4 hours ago, DumbFalang said:

Haas, Peterson and Buccaneer are the known varieties at the moment. Will try to get other varieties between now and December.

 

There will be a 4th variety that is unknown (locals call it green emerald), but I ate some myself this season and they were the best I tasted all year.  I could do Booth 7, but only if specifically requested.

 

Let me know if you are interested in any specific varieties and I'll see what I can do.

Hi DumbFarang. I've sent you a message re ordering. 

Ta! 

J. 

[Hutch68]

Nice, I'll have some of those.

[473geo]

Could you give an idea of price, per tree, delivery or pick up? Rough area where you are? Apologies if I should know this already may have missed previous posts. Certainly interested.

 

[DumbFalang]

Not sure on the price just yet but probably around Bt500-600 for a single tree on young rootstock. The price will reduce for quantity or increase for more mature trees or certain varieties. If price is the driving factor for anyone, they should get their name down at Pak Chong asap to give themselves a chance of getting trees next April.

 

I am based in Chiang Mai and make occasional trips to Chon Buri so may be able to drop off small orders (I only have a small car). Larger orders would normally go on the bus or via EMS if collection is not possible.

Edited October 6, 2017 by DumbFalang

[473geo]

15 hours ago, DumbFalang said:

Not sure on the price just yet but probably around Bt500-600 for a single tree on young rootstock. The price will reduce for quantity or increase for more mature trees or certain varieties. If price is the driving factor for anyone, they should get their name down at Pak Chong asap to give themselves a chance of getting trees next April.

 

I am based in Chiang Mai and make occasional trips to Chon Buri so may be able to drop off small orders (I only have a small car). Larger orders would normally go on the bus or via EMS if collection is not possible.

Ok thanks price looks fine to me, I asked because I had no idea at all.  Understand distribution methods also thanks. 

[teflonjon]

Interested, and will be following this thread.  I already have one Haas tree doing well, now need a second one to go with it.

[Thian]

I've seen Russel's avocado tree's for sale at the chatuchak market on wednesday/thursday

[djayz]

4 hours ago, Thian said:

I've seen Russel's avocado tree's for sale at the chatuchak market on wednesday/thursday

Do you happen to know if they grow we in this climate? 

[Thian]

7 minutes ago, djayz said:

Do you happen to know if they grow we in this climate? 

They look green and healthy.

[JungleBiker]

FYI, this year I took leaf samples from 2 lots of "Hass" trees here in Laos. One lot had been imported from Vietnam. The other had been imported from Thailand by a Thai agricultural company. The latter company told me the trees came from the Royal Project in Chiang Mai (but I cannot verify if that claim is true or not). 

 

I sent the leaf samples to a scientific institute in Spain for DNA testing. The institute was recommended to me by a leading global avocado company. 

 

The Hass from Vietnam were genuine Hass. 

 

The "Hass" from Thailand were not Hass. 

 

I am not saying that the Hass trees that Dumb Falang is offering are not Hass because I have not taken samples from those trees for DNA testing. 

 

I am only saying that there seem to be some trees going around Thailand that are being sold as Hass but are not Hass. 

[DumbFalang]

13 hours ago, JungleBiker said:

I am only saying that there seem to be some trees going around Thailand that are being sold as Hass but are not Hass. 

 

Normally I would say "no surprise there then", but actually I am a bit surprised at this and I'm glad you made us all aware of the situation.

 

Here's my situation. I have grown hundreds of rootstocks from various varieties and not made a note of which variety each one is because my understanding was that it didn't really matter and the variety of the scion is what is more important. Please feel free to correct me here if I got this wrong ;-)

 

My plan was to graft all of these trees myself but unfortunately my skills with a grafting knife (and miracle grafting tool from the internet) seem to be a little lacking. Perhaps it was because I was grafting at the wrong time of year.... I don't know, but I'm going to have another go at the right time of year. As a backup, "she who knows all" has put the word around and a local Avocado farmer will be supplying us with grafted trees in Feb/March.

 

Now, back to 'authenticity' of the varieties, here's the story: Me and the missus helped a young hill tribe family by providing them with a small house and 1.6 rai of land in the village so they could put their girls in school. We found out they had an Avocado farm and went to investigate. She told us that 20+ years ago the Royal Project provided her Dad with various varieties of Avocado trees that they had brought in from overseas. They asked him to grow them so they could test the fruit and see which varieties performed best. This being Thailand, everything fell apart after that. Some trees were chopped down but others thrived and the result is that they are left with Peterson, Buccaneer, "Haas" and another one that they call Green Emerald - which is probably just a name they made up.

 

Can I provide a certificate that proves the Haas is an original?....... Nope. What are the odds on it being original?.... your guess is as good as mine but after what JungleBiker has just shared with us, it's value has certainly gone up a little in my estimation.

 

Gotta Love Thailand ;-)

[oldcarguy]

Hi

 

I have a 50 year old avocado tree in my front yard in Los Angeles ,  pretty sure its Fuerte  type ,

its about 30 foot tall ,

 

so how do I grow root stock ? 

 

when we were kids we would take an avocado "pit" or center , put it in a glass with tooth picks to keep it half covered in water and  let it grow......

it would grow , the water would get stinky and we would give up and throw it away :)

 

So what is the correct way to do it ?

 

Thanks for the info ,

[DumbFalang]

You can use the toothpick and water method but in LA I think it may be warm enough to do what we do here in Thailand and just dip the seed into coconut fiber or even soil.

[Thian]

I had real hass from Spain but it wasn't happy here grafted on my large avocadotree in BKK. I have a few other varieties which are not happy as well. Maybe it was the rootstock i grafted it on but i'm getting tired of growing avocado in BKK, if i don't get flowers this winter i'll cull the whole multigrafted tree.

 

But it is possible to ship scionwood for 10 days and graft it in Thailand...that's what i did with the hass.

 

Also now there are many avocado's for sale in BKK, i bought 4 small ones for 100 baht together at the Royal farms shop which are hass but they are not as good as hass from New Zealand which cost 55 baht in the MAkro and larger.

 

And the very large avocado's sold everywhere are rarely edible, picked too early or overripe...i stopped buying them at all, too frustrating to make sushi, have all ingredients ready to roll and then the avocado is not usable.

Those large ones are good for guacamole but not as fatty as hass.

 

So it's time  for a good farm with their own stickers on the avocadofruit and nobody allowed to copy that sticker.

 

I still have several varieties here, also imported ones but can't be bothered to grow them actually. BKK is too hot i guess and that's what all thai told me already years ago. 

 

 

[Thian]

I also grow Thai hass on the multigrafted tree, it grows very well so i have to prune it a lot.

When i bought that tree it had blooms and one in the shop even had a small fruit....the tree was about 50 cm tall.

 

After grafting that one it never bloomed again..i also have another one which i bought with blooms but nothing at all has flowered since 4 years...so this is my last year with avocado's i guess, no blooms means byebye avocadotree. I have plenty other rare fruittree's to replace it. Grafted pulasan is waiting for the spot.

[JungleBiker]

On 11/10/2017 at 7:35 PM, Thian said:

I had real hass from Spain but it wasn't happy here grafted on my large avocadotree in BKK. I have a few other varieties which are not happy as well. Maybe it was the rootstock i grafted it on but i'm getting tired of growing avocado in BKK, if i don't get flowers this winter i'll cull the whole multigrafted tree.

 

But it is possible to ship scionwood for 10 days and graft it in Thailand...that's what i did with the hass.

 

Also now there are many avocado's for sale in BKK, i bought 4 small ones for 100 baht together at the Royal farms shop which are hass but they are not as good as hass from New Zealand which cost 55 baht in the MAkro and larger.

 

And the very large avocado's sold everywhere are rarely edible, picked too early or overripe...i stopped buying them at all, too frustrating to make sushi, have all ingredients ready to roll and then the avocado is not usable.

Those large ones are good for guacamole but not as fatty as hass.

 

So it's time  for a good farm with their own stickers on the avocadofruit and nobody allowed to copy that sticker.

 

I still have several varieties here, also imported ones but can't be bothered to grow them actually. BKK is too hot i guess and that's what all thai told me already years ago. 

 

 

 

It depends on latitude (how far north or south, from the equator) but, generally speaking, Hass prefers to be above 1,000 metres above sea level. So (real) Hass would not be happy in Bangkok.

 

The big avocados you mention will probably be varieties or seedlings of the more tropically-adapted West Indian race that will grow and give fruit at lower altitudes but have lower oil/fat content. That's why they are generally considered to be less tasty than Hass (which dominates about 95% or more of the international trade in avocado). Hass comes from the Guatemalan/Mexican races that prefer cooler conditions.

 

If you grow seeds taken from Hass fruits, without grafting, you will likely produce some trees that eventually bear fruits that look like Hass (having similar shape and size, with a dark purple pebbly skin when ripe) BUT they will not be genuine Hass. They will have different DNA and likely differ in several ways (such as flavor, oil content, texture, flesh colour, etc). 

 

I suspect that some of the "Hass" going around Thailand are something that came from a Hass seed and look like Hass but are not Hass, due to having different DNA. It has not been clonally propagated (by grafting scion wood) from a genuine Hass tree.

 

(Thian, I think you already know all of the above but I'm writing this for the others who may now know).  

 

 

[JungleBiker]

On 11/10/2017 at 11:56 AM, DumbFalang said:

You can use the toothpick and water method but in LA I think it may be warm enough to do what we do here in Thailand and just dip the seed into coconut fiber or even soil.

 

Just to add a couple of points: 

As DF as shown, you don't bury the seed but plant it with about a third to half of the seed exposed above the soil/substrate.

A seed has a "top" and a "bottom". The top is usually a bit pointy and the bottom is flattish or has a shallow depression. So plant the bottom facing downwards and the top facing upwards, rather than plant it on its side or upside down.

The seeds can be planted close together in the seedbed (e.g. in a trough as shown above) and then after germination, when a sprout is showing, it should be transplanted into its own pot/bag. This gives you a chance to reject any abnormal weak seedlings.

It is best not to try to keep everything that germinates but only select/keep the healthy vigorous seedlings. Throw the inferior ones away.

There are various seed treatments that can be done before sowing (cutting, peeling, hot water, fungicide, etc) - it's all on the web. Not necessary but may help.

When transplanting, I don't know what size bags they use in Thailand but the ones I saw from Vietnam were on the small side and I guess the same is the case for Thailand because it means lower costs (less plastic and substrate, easier to handle, more plants in a truck, etc).

A tall/deep bag holding 7 - 8 litres is recommended to produce strong plants that will establish well after planting. 

The avocado people I am collaborating with recommend a coir (cocopeat) substrate comprising 75% of the regular cocopeat powder-like stuff, and 25% of the coco chips (chopped husk). But it should be washed of salts and buffered with calcium nitrate and then you have to feed with liquid fertilisers. Similar to hydroponics (DF is already doing something like this with his strawberries!).

Alternatively, I think you could make a nice substrate using a mix of coco chips, cocopeat, rotted manure, carbonized rice husks, etc. Around here we have lots of coffee pulp that can be composted and mixed into the potting mix. It's important that the substrate should be airy and not be susceptible to becoming soggy/water-logged. Avocado roots will suffer phytophthora disease if they get too wet. "Phytophthora" comes from the Greek words meaning "plant destructor"!

 

 

 

 

[JungleBiker]

On 11/10/2017 at 10:07 AM, DumbFalang said:

 

Normally I would say "no surprise there then", but actually I am a bit surprised at this and I'm glad you made us all aware of the situation.

 

Here's my situation. I have grown hundreds of rootstocks from various varieties and not made a note of which variety each one is because my understanding was that it didn't really matter and the variety of the scion is what is more important. Please feel free to correct me here if I got this wrong ;-)

 

My plan was to graft all of these trees myself but unfortunately my skills with a grafting knife (and miracle grafting tool from the internet) seem to be a little lacking. Perhaps it was because I was grafting at the wrong time of year.... I don't know, but I'm going to have another go at the right time of year. As a backup, "she who knows all" has put the word around and a local Avocado farmer will be supplying us with grafted trees in Feb/March.

 

Now, back to 'authenticity' of the varieties, here's the story: Me and the missus helped a young hill tribe family by providing them with a small house and 1.6 rai of land in the village so they could put their girls in school. We found out they had an Avocado farm and went to investigate. She told us that 20+ years ago the Royal Project provided her Dad with various varieties of Avocado trees that they had brought in from overseas. They asked him to grow them so they could test the fruit and see which varieties performed best. This being Thailand, everything fell apart after that. Some trees were chopped down but others thrived and the result is that they are left with Peterson, Buccaneer, "Haas" and another one that they call Green Emerald - which is probably just a name they made up.

 

Can I provide a certificate that proves the Haas is an original?....... Nope. What are the odds on it being original?.... your guess is as good as mine but after what JungleBiker has just shared with us, it's value has certainly gone up a little in my estimation.

 

Gotta Love Thailand ;-)

Thanks for sharing that background DF. 

 

I'm pretty sure that the Royal Project would have brought in genuine Hass, etc. And based on your story about that particular orchard I would guess there is a good chance that those Hass are the real McCoy. 

 

I would like to help you get them DNA tested but the Spanish people who tested the plants for me did it as a favour for the avocado people I'm working with. I know they had a lot of hassle and paid a significant amount of money clearing the leaf samples through Spanish customs, not to mention their own lab costs. So I would not want to impose on them again. If you want, I could give you the contact and then perhaps you could enquire and ask how much would their service cost?   

 

Going back to the "fake Hass", I guess that after the Royal Project, and perhaps other projects, imported real Hass, there were people who took seeds from those trees and propagated them without grafting to produce what they call "Hass". People may also have saved seed from imported Hass fruits and grown them to produce "fake Hass" or "Thai Hass".

 

Regarding grafting, I have not yet tried it myself, so you are ahead of me, but my understanding is that there is not a right time of the year but there is a right kind of scion wood - you have to catch it as the leaf buds start to swell and nearly burst but not yet burst open. You have to trim off the leaves to leave short stubs of petiole that will soon drop off after grafting. 

 

Then there is the skill of making clean cuts and getting the cambiums to match. And then preventing the scion from dehydrating after grafting. You can see on youtube that some people put a zip lock plastic bag over the top. Alternatively, you could place your newly grafted seedlings under a polythene tent/tunnel with high humidity. You'd need some level of shade to prevent the scions cooking in the sun inside their little "greenhouses". This is where time of the year may be a factor - cooler or more humid times of the year may be more favorable but if you can create the right conditions using plastic and shade then time of the year should not matter.

 

Yes you are right that you can take any avocado seedling rootstock and if it is grafted with genuine Hass it will produce genuine Hass fruit. Though you do have to make sure that the rootstock does not produce new shoots that could take over and replace the scion.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thian]

Some rootstocks do much better with certain varieties..

I have a few which don't grow at all.

 

Grafting can be done when the tree is growing well pushing new leaves all the time. Best is to use parafilm or buddingtape, the buds will grow straight through it when they are pushing.

You need developed buds though, wrap them in film and graft on the rootstock/tree...in full sun is no problem.

 

Best is to prepare the scionwood, cut the leaves all off, wait some days for the leaf-ends to drop, wrap it in parafilm/budding tape and graft it.

 

The tape is the trick, it has to be soft so the buds can grow through it...if you use another film you might need to help the buds getting trough if you see them swell, then you make a small hole in that tape so it can get through.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Thian

[Hawaiian]

A few comments from Hawaii.  The green emerald variety may actually be Greengold which a selection from Sharwill seedlings.  Sharwill is the main commercial cultivar in Hawaii.

I was taught that large seeds  usually give the healthiest root stock.  Also when grafting leave the tip of the bud exposed.  In other words, don't cover the tip with tape.  If kept in a shaded, wind free area. the bud should not dry out.  As one poster suggested, covering with a thin clear bag might be helpful.  Just make sure condensation doesn't rot the bud.

[Hawaiian]

There is a youtube video on grafting avocados by Ty McDonald of the University of Hawaii Extension Service.  Part 1 is the introduction  and Part 2 is the actual demonstration. Ty's video is even better than one of his live demonstrations I attended.  Not sure about the link, but if you search hard enough you can find it. There are closeups and clear explanations of the process. 

Edited October 16, 2017 by Hawaiian
Did not finish writing.

[JungleBiker]

I'm struggling to attach some photos of grafting avocados without wrapping the scion wood with plastic, just the union (joint). Not sure if this pdf file containing 3 photos will work. 

 

Avo pics.pdf

 

[JungleBiker]

I think it didn't work. I'm unable to upload any kind of file. Don't know why. 

[cobbler]

Not trying to be an <deleted> but we picked up 100 grafted avocados 4 years ago on the side of the highway. At petchaburn in the mountains on the way to pitsunalog. They had 100s of them all different types . Its a massive avocado area. 500,600 bart i just had to post this.
Just doesnt seem right

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[cobbler]

Not trying to be nasty but just honest but we picked up 100 grafted avocados 4 years ago on the side of the highway. They were 30 bart each. They still sell them now. Dirt cheap
At petchaburn in the mountains on the way to pitsunalog. They had 100s of them all different types . Its a massive avocado area. 500,600 bart i just had to post this.
Just doesnt seem right

Sent from my SM-T815Y using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Sent from my SM-T815Y using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[DumbFalang]

What doesn’t: seem right?