Spain sacks Catalan government after independence declaration

[Tarteso]

An Illegal and unilateral decision of referendum so, IMO,  illegal independence. The law must to work now.

 

[Grouse]

52 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Yes it does, it most certainly does. The bell being rung, is that of the small band of egomaniacs that consider that through some birth-right ,or that they have been to some highfalutin school, that their view is more important that that of others. It is most obnoxious and unbecoming and has no place on public fora. If the Catalan nationalist movement has the popular support of the Catalonians then up to them what they do - much like the Brexiteers that won their supposed nationalist vote. The more the small band of elite snobs moan, the more set in their desires the majority are. Welcome to modern times.

You think the separatists are the majority? I beg to differ

[FreddieRoyle]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You think the separatists are the majority? I beg to differ

Beg all you want, but I think if the Rajoy administration knew the Catalans would NOT vote for independence there would have been no need for violent obstruction of polling stations and attempts to disrupt the vote. Capiche? 

[SheungWan]

2 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Beg all you want, but I think if the Rajoy administration knew the Catalans would NOT vote for independence there would have been no need for violent obstruction of polling stations and attempts to disrupt the vote. Capiche? 

'I think....they knew.' Well that's conclusive then.

[Tarteso]

2 hours ago, JAG said:

Being vaguely interested in this, I have recently watched the 6 part ITV documentary on the Spanish Civil War - it is available on Utube.

 

Apart from underscoring just how unpleasant and savage many elements on both sides were, it also gives an insight into why the central authority in Madrid is so despised by both the Basques and the Catalonians.

Ok JAG, but what about the Constitution and tha CARTA MAGNA?

 

Nice one document of spanish civil war.

[JAG]

14 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

'I think....they knew.' Well that's conclusive then.

Well if they had been allowed to hold their referendum, without tear gas, baton rounds, blocked polling stations and so on, then we might have known, and there would be a starting point for a debate. To say that there is no majority view for independence, because a referendum was prevented from happening, is something of a circular argument!

 

I should imagine all they have managed is to increase support for independence.

[JAG]

7 minutes ago, Tarteso said:

Ok JAG, but what about the Constitution and tha CARTA MAGNA?

 

Nice one document of spanish civil war.

Sorry, I don't understand?

[Tarteso]

7 minutes ago, JAG said:

Sorry, I don't understand?

Sorry, perhaps you’ll can read better in this web, and hope can get better information about it.

http://study.com/academy/lesson/the-spanish-magna-carta-the-constitutional-functioning-laws.html

 

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

Well if they had been allowed to hold their referendum, without tear gas, baton rounds, blocked polling stations and so on, then we might have known, and there would be a starting point for a debate. To say that there is no majority view for independence, because a referendum was prevented from happening, is something of a circular argument!

I should imagine all they have managed is to increase support for independence.

You can imagine all you want.

[khunken]

31 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

You can imagine all you want.

He may be speculating on whether the central government's heavy-handed approach has boosted support for independence.

 

However Jag is dead right in criticising that heavy-handed, send in the police, effort to block the referendum. The Catalans should have been allowed to hold their referendum peacefully and, based on the result, either let it drift if the result was to reject it or just declare it illegal if they supported it.

 

I don't support Catalan independence but I do support devolution of power to regions. Both sides have screwed that up big time.

[Kiwiken]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

You think the separatists are the majority? I beg to differ

Had the Spanish Authorities not interfered perhaps the numbers would reflect true opinion but the Spaniards seized Polling booths and blocked many mre so who knows what the truth is. Anyway Who ever let truth and Capital get in the way of a good story?

[JAG]

18 minutes ago, khunken said:

He may be speculating on whether the central government's heavy-handed approach has boosted support for independence.

 

However Jag is dead right in criticising that heavy-handed, send in the police, effort to block the referendum. The Catalans should have been allowed to hold their referendum peacefully and, based on the result, either let it drift if the result was to reject it or just declare it illegal if they supported it.

 

I don't support Catalan independence but I do support devolution of power to regions. Both sides have screwed that up big time.

I don't particularly support Catalan independence, but I do support the Catalan people's right to discuss and even vote on it, without the sort of response we have seen. You're right as well, I do suspect that they will have boosted support for the cause.

As for his (SheungWan's) response - well I have long since concluded that for him the "snappy sharp put down" is more important than any meaningful contribution to a discussion.

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, Tarteso said:

An Illegal and unilateral decision of referendum so, IMO,  illegal independence. The law must to work now.

 

When the law is unfair, what alternative do you suggest? Should the British have punished Gandhi when he led his fellow Indians to harvest salt in 1930, an act that was illegal for Indians to do in their own country?

[Tarteso]

When the law is unfair, what alternative do you suggest? Should the British have punished Gandhi when he led his fellow Indians to harvest salt in 1930, an act that was illegal for Indians to do in their own country?

If you mean that the Spanish Constitution and Magna Carta are unfair wich were signed by both parties in the statutes of autonomy and self-government...

On the other hand, where have you read that Catalonia is a Colony of Spain? are you comparing with India?

IMO, The real problem is a ineptitude of both governments Madrid and Barcelona to get a mutual agreement and use the common sense. I am Spanish (Mather from Catalonia, Father from Madrid.
We are going to do a lot and mutual damage. Like someone wrote in this forum, Are we talking about of another one Civil war?.

Where is the LAW? Who applies the LAW? Who can stop this confrontation?

I'm sorry, I have not idea about alternatives to resolve this issue. I only suggest more dialog, dialog and dialog.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Beg all you want, but I think if the Rajoy administration knew the Catalans would NOT vote for independence there would have been no need for violent obstruction of polling stations and attempts to disrupt the vote. Capiche? 

No. I don't speak Italian.

 

I totally disagree with your opinion. If you knew ANY of the history you might understand a little more.

 

The Spanish police action was foolish, repugnant and self defeating. 

 

How many were killed? Do you know?

 

Do you think the Catalans have been treated unfairly by the Spanish government over the last 40 years? How much more devolution should be offered?

 

The Spanish have 200 Leopard 2 tanks. I would prefer NOT to see them parked on The Ramblas just because some Catalans are mean ?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, khunken said:

He may be speculating on whether the central government's heavy-handed approach has boosted support for independence.

 

However Jag is dead right in criticising that heavy-handed, send in the police, effort to block the referendum. The Catalans should have been allowed to hold their referendum peacefully and, based on the result, either let it drift if the result was to reject it or just declare it illegal if they supported it.

 

I don't support Catalan independence but I do support devolution of power to regions. Both sides have screwed that up big time.

The Catalans' devolved power includes their own language, own parliament, own police force, own school system, own flag. How much more devolved power would you suggest? 

 

The truth is that the Catalans resent paying more to Madrid than they receive (like many of us) back in government expenditure. With 1000 companies having upped stumps and soon to be followed by support services, their problems will be rectified. Not with increased expenditure but with reduced taxes on reduced income. People should be careful what they wish for!

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41785292

 

reasonable update!

[Grouse]

54 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The Catalans' devolved power includes their own language, own parliament, own police force, own school system, own flag. How much more devolved power would you suggest? 

 

The truth is that the Catalans resent paying more to Madrid than they receive (like many of us) back in government expenditure. With 1000 companies having upped stumps and soon to be followed by support services, their problems will be rectified. Not with increased expenditure but with reduced taxes on reduced income. People should be careful what they wish for!

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41785292

 

reasonable update!

I forgot, Catalonia also runs it's own healthcare system 

[khunken]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

The Catalans' devolved power includes their own language, own parliament, own police force, own school system, own flag. How much more devolved power would you suggest? 

 

The truth is that the Catalans resent paying more to Madrid than they receive (like many of us) back in government expenditure. With 1000 companies having upped stumps and soon to be followed by support services, their problems will be rectified. Not with increased expenditure but with reduced taxes on reduced income. People should be careful what they wish for!

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41785292

 

reasonable update!

Yes they have (had?) all those facets that you say - but they may well have blown some of them away.

When you're part of a country, it is normal for wealth to be spread around & if the greedy (yes it's greed) part doesn't like the onus on them is to form a party to win a Spanish election. BTW there is no evidence that I've seen that the majority of Catalans even want independence.

You are a supporter of the EU (as am I) and the community has done a very good job of spreading wealth to the poorer regions. Brexit was, at least in part, supported because the UK didn't like having to pay for some of the wealth distribution.

You seem to have little idea of macro economics when you say they will be better off from businesses moving out of Catalonia. No country or region will benefit from a major withdrawal of income, tax & job producing companies.

 

[oxo1947]

The Catalonia vote was completely unconstitutional...............Says The King....

.

Where would we be...in a world without Irony....

.

 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, khunken said:

Yes they have (had?) all those facets that you say - but they may well have blown some of them away.

When you're part of a country, it is normal for wealth to be spread around & if the greedy (yes it's greed) part doesn't like the onus on them is to form a party to win a Spanish election. BTW there is no evidence that I've seen that the majority of Catalans even want independence.

You are a supporter of the EU (as am I) and the community has done a very good job of spreading wealth to the poorer regions. Brexit was, at least in part, supported because the UK didn't like having to pay for some of the wealth distribution.

You seem to have little idea of macro economics when you say they will be better off from businesses moving out of Catalonia. No country or region will benefit from a major withdrawal of income, tax & job producing companies.

 

You missed the irony in my words. I agree that business moving out is a very bad thing. My point is that they will end up poorer so less of their income in future will be redistributed!

[khunken]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You missed the irony in my words. I agree that business moving out is a very bad thing. My point is that they will end up poorer so less of their income in future will be redistributed!

Yes I did miss the irony. Yes too the Catalans will end up poorer but by virtue of the movement of businesses to other areas, it will be a wealth distribution in itself. Whether that distribution will be to the right areas I really don't know.

[manarak]

this Catalonia story is hilarious.

I love to see the embarassment it causes to leaders of so-called "free nations", lol.

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll posts and replies removed.  

[SheungWan]

10 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

Had the Spanish Authorities not interfered perhaps the numbers would reflect true opinion but the Spaniards seized Polling booths and blocked many mre so who knows what the truth is. Anyway Who ever let truth and Capital get in the way of a good story?

Well your story isn't all that hot as it omits the information that the opposition in Catalonia boycotted the illegal poll, but never mind.

[RuamRudy]

5 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Well your story isn't all that hot as it omits the information that the opposition in Catalonia boycotted the illegal poll, but never mind.

But with too many unknowns in the equation, it is impossible to say whether the results achieved are representative of the will of the people. 

 

For what it is worth, and I know that this isn't worth a lot - a higher proportion of Catalans successfully voted to secede from Spain than Brits voted to leave the EU, so fundamental and groundbreaking change is being executed in Europe with even less of a mandate.

 

[SheungWan]

22 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

When the law is unfair, what alternative do you suggest? Should the British have punished Gandhi when he led his fellow Indians to harvest salt in 1930, an act that was illegal for Indians to do in their own country?

With the rate of businesses leaving Catalonia, maybe a good idea for them to take up harvesting salt.

[SheungWan]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

But with too many unknowns in the equation, it is impossible to say whether the results achieved are representative of the will of the people. 

For what it is worth, and I know that this isn't worth a lot - a higher proportion of Catalans successfully voted to secede from Spain than Brits voted to leave the EU, so fundamental and groundbreaking change is being executed in Europe with even less of a mandate.

The comparison not valid as one vote legal, the other not.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

The comparison not valid as one vote legal, the other not.

Legal or not, a plebiscite is a clear indication of the will of those who voted - so while the referendum may not have been valid in the eyes of the law, the comparison is not invalidated by that technicality. 

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Legal or not, a plebiscite is a clear indication of the will of those who voted - so while the referendum may not have been valid in the eyes of the law, the comparison is not invalidated by that technicality. 

We surely must agree that a simple majority of votes is inadequate for constitutional matters.

[Monomial]

9 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

But with too many unknowns in the equation, it is impossible to say whether the results achieved are representative of the will of the people. 

 

For what it is worth, and I know that this isn't worth a lot - a higher proportion of Catalans successfully voted to secede from Spain than Brits voted to leave the EU, so fundamental and groundbreaking change is being executed in Europe with even less of a mandate.

 

 

According to the recent poll in the paper that can not be quoted, they see the race in December as almost a perfect split, with 43% supporting and 43% against independence.  And we all know from Brexit that people tend to equivocate when reporting their true feelings which creates a small bias towards stay in the polls. Thus, based on recent poll numbers, it is likely the pro independence party will win in December, but just barely.

 

Rinse and repeat the same problem if they decide to support the independence mandate as well. Spain could be in the position of dissolving successive governments until they finally get the result they want.