New roof advice

[simoh1490]

Have you managed to source that all important piece of new roofing, the one that sits directly under that big glob of cement on the ridge in your first picture you posted today, that's going to be an all-important three way ridge  tile which will stop all leaks at that point and enable you to get rid of the cement pile.

[simoh1490]

2 hours ago, wayned said:

I would also add that they should be fabricated using thicker galvanized metal than is on the rolls and used for normal flashing.  They need to be made to outlast the roof as replacing them at a later date will be a big chore.  I would also recommend that they each drain into a large downspout.  There's a picture in he document that I attached that shows the downspouts used in a similar situation, but I don't like the design of the flashing as it does not travel up under the flashing .

Absolutely agreed, your first point is very very important, I think if it were me I might fabricate those valleys on the ground and then hoist them up for installation.

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Have you managed to source that all important piece of new roofing, the one that sits directly under that big glob of cement on the ridge in your first picture you posted today, that's going to be an all-important three way ridge  tile which will stop all leaks at that point and enable you to get rid of the cement pile.

OK, confused again.

 

My understanding was that this and all other flashings etc. would be part of the roofing that the dealer would provide. Are you saying it is something else that can't be made out of Colorbond?

 

Also Bluescope rep indicated that the valley gutters/flashings could also be made out of Colorbond. However, Colorbond is only .5 mm thick and I note you are all saying these gutters need to be made of 3 mm thick galvanized metal. ??

 

Meanwhile my work crew who have been up on the roof are telling me we can re-use the existing valley gutters (minus the cement globs etc and with a better roof installation) and that they are in good condition. I have not had any leaks since they were installed (about 16-17 years back) and as I recall it was impossible to source locally, they had to order the sheeting from Bangkok and took a long time.

 

So: do I really have to somehow get newly made valley gutters of of galvanized metal 3 mm thick or can I:

- reuse existing

- use ones made of Colorbond

 

?

 

[simoh1490]

11 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

OK, confused again.

 

My understanding was that this and all other flashings etc. would be part of the roofing that the dealer would provide. Are you saying it is something else that can't be made out of Colorbond?

 

Also Bluescope rep indicated that the valley gutters/flashings could also be made out of Colorbond. However, Colorbond is only .5 mm thick and I note you are all saying these gutters need to be made of 3 mm thick galvanized metal. ??

 

Meanwhile my work crew who have been up on the roof are telling me we can re-use the existing valley gutters (minus the cement globs etc and with a better roof installation) and that they are in good condition. I have not had any leaks since they were installed (about 16-17 years back) and as I recall it was impossible to source locally, they had to order the sheeting from Bangkok and took a long time.

 

So: do I really have to somehow get newly made valley gutters of of galvanized metal 3 mm thick or can I:

- reuse existing

- use ones made of Colorbond

 

?

 

 

This might be my misunderstanding so perhaps others can clarify:

 

With concrete tiles, the flashing goes underneath the tiles and then cover or ridge tiles go on top of that. From what I've just looked at it seems as though the flashing with metal roofs goes on top of the sheets rather than underneath, that being the case you have all you need and I apologise for any anxiety caused. 

 

But the two large valleys we talked about earlier, the ones you extended, they are flashings (of a sort) that clearly go underneath the sheets so the sheets overlap it.  Kwasaki?

 

Re. the flashings material: the valley flashings need to be very very robust but you've just said the workmen can reuse the existing valleys, you must use which ever is the strongest which sounds like the existing valleys.

[wayned]

57 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

So: do I really have to somehow get newly made valley gutters of of galvanized metal 3 mm thick or can I:

- reuse existing

Until the roof is removed and the existing flashing is completely visible and inspected,  it's difficult to say what can be reused.  But I would say that there was a reason why all of that cement was added to the valley gutters if they were in a good enough condition to properly drain the areas.

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

 

This might be my misunderstanding so perhaps others can clarify:

 

With concrete tiles, the flashing goes underneath the tiles and then cover or ridge tiles go on top of that. From what I've just looked at it seems as though the flashing with metal roofs goes on top of the sheets rather than underneath, that being the case you have all you need and I apologise for any anxiety caused. 

 

But the two large valleys we talked about earlier, the ones you extended, they are flashings (of a sort) that clearly go underneath the sheets so the sheets overlap it.  Kwasaki?

 

Re. the flashings material: the valley flashings need to be very very robust but you've just said the workmen can reuse the existing valleys, you must use which ever is the strongest which sounds like the existing valleys.

 

What I have now, goes under the tiles. I am very unclear as to how it is supposed to work on a metal roof. Things I have seen seem to suggest the flashing would go on top but I have not been able to find anything specific to valley flashing.

 

Supplier came out and looked at the roof and measured but communication was very difficult and it remains very unclear regarding the valleys. He seemed to say I could reuse the existing but I am not sure how that works with a metal roof installation. My workers seem to feel they know, I am just nervous as to whether I can bank on that.

 

Would really like to hear from anyone who has a metal roof and valleys like this!!

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, wayned said:

Until the roof is removed and the existing flashing is completely visible and inspected,  it's difficult to say what can be reused.  But I would say that there was a reason why all of that cement was added to the valley gutters if they were in a good enough condition to properly drain the areas.

 The valley gutters were not there originally (or rather, much smaller ones were, which failed miserably). These were added later on and I am not sure if the cement was before or after that, could well have been before (5 separate failed attempts at repair before the larger gutters were finally installed).  As soon as the larger gutters were installed, no more problem.

[carlyai]

 The valley gutters were not there originally (or rather, much smaller ones were, which failed miserably). These were added later on and I am not sure if the cement was before or after that, could well have been before (5 separate failed attempts at repair before the larger gutters were finally installed).  As soon as the larger gutters were installed, no more problem.

Same with my valleys, but only 2 attempts with my tiled roof.

I don't know but I can't see why the valleys on a metal roof wouldn't go under the covering metal extending to the valleys. If this is the case, once the valleys are installed and screwed down, the metal roof could be tacked on, or not finish screwed and a fire tanker with a big hose used to flood the roof and see what happens.

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[simoh1490]

17 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Same with my valleys, but only 2 attempts with my tiled roof.

I don't know but I can't see why the valleys on a metal roof wouldn't go under the covering metal extending to the valleys. If this is the case, once the valleys are installed and screwed down, the metal roof could be tacked on, or not finish screwed and a fire tanker with a big hose used to flood the roof and see what happens.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

The valleys MUST go under the sheet metal of the roof, water only flows downwards. Put another way, the metal of the roof must overlap the wings of the valleys.

[grollies]

For Bluescope roofing installation all the CAD drawings can be found on their website

 

http://steelproducts.bluescopesteel.com.au/category

[Sheryl]

You are assuming I (or my contractors, or the supplier for that matter) (1) have CAD software to open these  files and (2) would be able to make sense of the drawings if we did.    Having met the supplier face to face today I can safely say all three of us are  0 for 2 on this.

 

But Simoh's answer is clear enough, thanks!

 

The latest twist is that of the 2 potential suppliers, 1 messaged me today that she no longer has any as just sold the last of it, and the other, who came out to see and supposedly measure the roof, once we got down to it turns out to have only 40 m in stock so has to order from Bluescope with he says takes 7 days for delivery, add to that 3 days for them to mold the panels and it will be 10 days at least before we can start. Meanwhile, I've got 2 workers just arrived from Cambodia (the 3rd is with me fulltime) and will have to pay them for their time regardless, as well as for the extra visa run that the extended stay will require.

 

Mind you, I told the supplier  on the phone and by line == repeatedly -- that I needed 300 sq meters and was assurred they had it, in stock, in off-white, now. Also told him repeatedly that I wanted Colorbond. Showed up today with swaths of both Colorbond and Zacs asking which of the two white colors did I want  .

 

The 3 workers he brought with him to measure the roof went no further than the top of the ladder and then told my workers they were too scared so would they please measure it for them.... so at least I need not worry that i might be better off with those, supposedly Bluescope-certified, guys for the installation!

 

Anyway rant over...at least he is willing to order it, which is more than  any other suppliers have been.  And he will also be able to supply the screws (local shops have them but not the class 3 Bluescope recommends). I asked him about the wavy plastic things, he does not have any shaped to fit this roofing, only for fitting to tiles but said he would come up with "something"...remains to be seen what. I did eventually find some in a small local shop but that too was in just one shape fitting to tiles.

 

There may  thus be a hiatus for a while on this thread but you can be sure I'll be back... (?threat or promise? )

 

You have all been wondrously patient with my extreme ignorance on all matters construction-related.  I wish I did not have to try to understand any of this and could just pay someone to come and do the needful but.......that is exactly the strategy that got me my current roof, the state and history of which you now know .  And a few other fiascos as well. I have learned the hard way that I do have to get down into the details  and micro manage a bit on all projects/repairs of I don't want a disasterous outcome....

 

 

[Sheryl]

Oops so much for my promise to lay off questions for a while -- on the radiant barrier, my crew wants to go with the top hat spacer approach on top of the purlins after all, because they think it is easier than trying to affix inside given all the hanging ceiling wires that attach to the beams....and unlike me, they understood the TH approach instantly when I showed them the pix.

 

My questions is -- this will widen the space in the eaves, since the roof will be up a bit higher than if it were flat on the purlins. Good for ventilation but will the fact that air has that added entry make the ripped off roof threat more likely? Or is it the opposite given that the spaces will be all round (i.e. air can come straight through and go out)?

[Kwasaki]

4 hours ago, wayned said:

Until the roof is removed and the existing flashing is completely visible and inspected,  it's difficult to say what can be reused.  But I would say that there was a reason why all of that cement was added to the valley gutters if they were in a good enough condition to properly drain the areas.

Yeah I will give up now and insult enough thankyou from posts confirms,  all that's happening is like a mish mash of information, to be frank even in my 34 years as a experienced qualified builder & roofer after an early pint the existing roof is in need of a renovation structure re-design.

If Cambodian, Thai, Myanmar, Laos workers whatever get to do a strip & re-roof and fix new roof materials as the existing design if you could call it a roof design, it will end up being a leaking problem all over again.   

 

 

 

 

 

[simoh1490]

6 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Oops so much for my promise to lay off questions for a while -- on the radiant barrier, my crew wants to go with the top hat spacer approach on top of the purlins after all, because they think it is easier than trying to affix inside given all the hanging ceiling wires that attach to the beams....and unlike me, they understood the TH approach instantly when I showed them the pix.

 

My questions is -- this will widen the space in the eaves, since the roof will be up a bit higher than if it were flat on the purlins. Good for ventilation but will the fact that air has that added entry make the ripped off roof threat more likely? Or is it the opposite given that the spaces will be all round (i.e. air can come straight through and go out)?

Yes, that gap must be filled otherwise the risk is as you say from wind, water ingress and from anything living that crawl through the space. The easiest way to fix the problem is to get hold of some wood strip, IT MUST BE A ROYAL WOOD, something impervious to bugs and rot, simple fasten it as an overlap on the existing eaves board/trim fascia that's already there and paint at a later date. If you don't use the best hardwood you can find you'll have to repeat the process before long. The good news is the gap is not large and is easily filled. Remember though that what you;re doing lifts the entire roof everywhere by the same amount, that means the sheet metal overlaps into the valleys that little bit higher and a little bit closer to the middle of the valley. There may not be any implications from this but you'll need to watch in case something somewhere doesn't fit any longer. FWIW I think you're fairly safe on this point, just be aware.

Edited November 6, 2017 by simoh1490

[simoh1490]

Does anyone have an answer for me regarding flashings versus the equivalent of ridge tiles? Does the flashing used with steel roof serve as both the external cover and the internal flashing?

[simoh1490]

Sheryl: after reading your most recent post again....

 

don't get too excited about the chances of the roof blowing off, the pictures that were posted earlier were an anomaly, a combination of poor workmanship and freak weather and honestly they shouldn't have been posted. Keeping all of that in context, the idea of air flow passing through the roof, in one side and out the other because all sides are open, doesn't hold true because the ridge is not open, think about the design of a parachute and lift. The bottom line is the eaves need to be sealed for a number of reasons which include gusting wind, but primarily for other reasons, as mentioned earlier.

[grollies]

9 hours ago, Sheryl said:

You are assuming I (or my contractors, or the supplier for that matter) (1) have CAD software to open these  files and (2) would be able to make sense of the drawings if we did.    Having met the supplier face to face today I can safely say all three of us are  0 for 2 on this.

 

All the drawings are on PDF, you don't need a CAD programme to view them. I had a look at a couple and they're pretty good tbh.......

[wayned]

38 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

the pictures that were posted earlier were an anomaly,

I agree about the pictures posted earlier and I posted them.  They were in response to the post just before and are an example of what could happen if the roof is not constructed properly, more as a joke, but it really did happen.  When we built the weigh station, we had a huge pile of  lumber that was cut on site when the trees were cleared and decided to use it rather than do a proper steel structure.  It was very hard wood and pilot holes had to be drilled for the nails and the bit used was too large and they were drilled too deep.  After the roof was finished, we had a "freq" storm that literally blew the whole roof off intact since the nails just pulled out.  The cause was poor workmanship, a tight wallet and a freak weather! Many of the houses here also lost their roofs which had been there for years.  The building has been redone using proper steel structure and installed correctly and there re no problems.  I didn't mean to be a scaremonger!

[carlyai]

Sheryl, I looked around all my computer stuff etc, but can't as yet find pictures of the new valley installation, and anything that would help.
I think you and your advisors have got it fairly well sorted.
I did find a pic. of my original valley from early 2014, but no use showing that, as, knowing what I know now, it was never going to work properly.

Your excellent advisors have shown me, what I think is a real flaw in my thermal barrier construction (just revisited some archived pics from 2014). I extended the thermal barrier right out under the eves to the end of the tiles before the guttering. So my slotted eves or soffit can't draw in any air as the thermal barrier is there.
Have to apologise about a previous post where I didn't think they made that much difference in the big scheme of things. Mine don't cause they don't work!
I would suggest you borrow the water tanker though. [emoji2]


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[simoh1490]

4 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Sheryl, I looked around all my computer stuff etc, but can't as yet find pictures of the new valley installation, and anything that would help.
I think you and your advisors have got it fairly well sorted.
I did find a pic. of my original valley from early 2014, but no use showing that, as, knowing what I know now, it was never going to work properly.

Your excellent advisors have shown me, what I think is a real flaw in my thermal barrier construction (just revisited some archived pics from 2014). I extended the thermal barrier right out under the eves to the end of the tiles before the guttering. So my slotted eves or soffit can't draw in any air as the thermal barrier is there.
Have to apologise about a previous post where I didn't think they made that much difference in the big scheme of things. Mine don't cause they don't work!
I would suggest you borrow the water tanker though.


Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

 

"I extended the thermal barrier right out under the eves to the end of the tiles before the guttering. So my slotted eves or soffit can't draw in any air as the thermal barrier is there".

 

Bad Carlyai, bad, no dinner for you. 

[grollies]

There is one other solution to the roof problem not mentioned (I think).

 

The OP says the existing roof design is complicated and is struggling with how replacement roof materials all go together, valley gutters, flashings.

 

Instead of trying to replace the roof like for like why not redesign and replace with a simple hip roof design? Your builders will understand the roof construction, you do away with complicated valley design and fitting of wing gutters and you only need to fix simple ridge tiles, facia and vented soffits.

 

Plus your builders can start on the structure straight away whilst waiting for the roof panels. OK, bit more cost with additional steel but box steel is reasonably cheap.

[Sheryl]

13 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Yeah I will give up now and insult enough thankyou from posts confirms,  all that's happening is like a mish mash of information, to be frank even in my 34 years as a experienced qualified builder & roofer after an early pint the existing roof is in need of a renovation structure re-design.

If Cambodian, Thai, Myanmar, Laos workers whatever get to do a strip & re-roof and fix new roof materials as the existing design if you could call it a roof design, it will end up being a leaking problem all over again.   

 

 

 

 

 

Except that it does not leak now and hasn't for 18 years, since the large gutters were installed.

 

But if we were to do a structural renovation (which I gather will mean new metal rafters and purlins affixed?), how would we go about it?  As far as I can see, no matter what there will still be valleys though they could be made less wide if the middle roof were made less steep and wider, i.e. met the side roofs  directly a bit further up . Won't that still need gutters?

 

I have at least 10 days interlude before work can begin so some work on the structure is not totally out of the question, the main problem is that I would have to bring in at least 1 Thai roofer as my crew does not have the welding equipment etc. And as you can appreciate my confidence in local roofers is in the negative numbers....

 

[Kwasaki]

6 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Does anyone have an answer for me regarding flashings versus the equivalent of ridge tiles? Does the flashing used with steel roof serve as both the external cover and the internal flashing?

If you were to use and fix a inner liner steel roof panel, usual practice is to use internal ridge flashing that goes over or under the liner to support fibre glass at ridge location. 

Spacers are fixed through to purlins and top sheet profile roof sheet fixed to the spacer with fixing in top of roll position.

This method is called a sandwich roof construction.

 

If using plasterboard liner or other flat material liners in sandwich construction a piece is cut from them to fit width of ridge.

 

If you go google images asking the question there many illustrations and web site companies showing the assembly of many types of roof construction.

 

 

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, grollies said:

There is one other solution to the roof problem not mentioned (I think).

 

The OP says the existing roof design is complicated and is struggling with how replacement roof materials all go together, valley gutters, flashings.

 

Instead of trying to replace the roof like for like why not redesign and replace with a simple hip roof design? Your builders will understand the roof construction, you do away with complicated valley design and fitting of wing gutters and you only need to fix simple ridge tiles, facia and vented soffits.

 

Plus your builders can start on the structure straight away whilst waiting for the roof panels. OK, bit more cost with additional steel but box steel is reasonably cheap.

See reply to post above, this is indeed now on the table as a possibility but I need help understanding what this redesign would look like. Can you give me a simple (i.e. lay person-friendly) sketch or description? Is it only the middle roof structure that we change or do both sides have to be redone as wellt? I have looked up hip roofs but don't see pictures that match what I can envision doing here
 

What I have now, looking from the front is:

Current.docx

 

What I can picture is:

 

revision.docx

 

This  would still have 3 places where 2 roofs come together in a valley though without a gap space (either side of the middle roof and the front, and between the middle back roof and middle front roof). Not sure how much better that is? It will still collect a lot of water and being a sharp V with no level area hard to fit a gutter? Or do we redo both the front and back middle roofs, basically doing away with the retrofitted front middle roof and bringing the middle back roof all the way forward like this:

 

revision2.docx

 

[Sheryl]

Sorry, ignore the "clipped images" above, can't seem to delete them..

[grollies]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

See reply to post above, this is indeed now on the table as a possibility but I need help understanding what this redesign would look like. Can you give me a simple (i.e. lay person-friendly) sketch or description? Is it only the middle roof structure that we change or do both sides have to be redone as wellt? I have looked up hip roofs but don't see pictures that match what I can envision doing here
 

What I have now, looking from the front is:

Current.docx

 

What I can picture is:

 

revision.docx

 

This  would still have 3 places where 2 roofs come together in a valley though without a gap space (either side of the middle roof and the front, and between the middle back roof and middle front roof). Not sure how much better that is? It will still collect a lot of water and being a sharp V with no level area hard to fit a gutter? Or do we redo both the front and back middle roofs, basically doing away with the retrofitted front middle roof and bringing the middle back roof all the way forward like this:

 

revision2.docx

 

Cover the whole house instead of two roofs coming together?

[Kwasaki]

7 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Yes, that gap must be filled otherwise the risk is as you say from wind, water ingress and from anything living that crawl through the space. The easiest way to fix the problem is to get hold of some wood strip, IT MUST BE A ROYAL WOOD, something impervious to bugs and rot, simple fasten it as an overlap on the existing eaves board/trim fascia that's already there

 an eaves flashing is cheaper and easier to fix as stated over and over also shown in previous sketches.

[Kwasaki]

4 hours ago, carlyai said:

I looked around all my computer stuff etc, but can't as yet find pictures of the new valley installation, and anything that would help.
I think you and your advisors have got it fairly well sorted.
I did find a pic. of my original valley from early 2014, but no use showing that, as, knowing what I know now, it was never going to work properly.

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=images+of+roof+valley+details&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=

X&ved=0ahUKEwjkruHU16vXAhVKrI8KHZU6DdEQsAQIJQ&biw=1094&bih=522

[Sheryl]

9 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

 an eaves flashing is cheaper and easier to fix as stated over and over also shown in previous sketches.

But I was told eaves flashing does not seal the eaves???

 

What my work crew is suggesting is to put in a wood board cut to the shape of the roof profile - I think yo uwould call it a batten?

[Kwasaki]

38 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Except that it does not leak now and hasn't for 18 years, since the large gutters were installed.

The reason no leaks was using a concrete sealing mix and mastic at roof eaves where it was in contact with the gutter l believe you mentioned early on, that does serve purpose as in your case but if the gutter had been the correct design initially it wouldn't of caused a problem.