Gym workout and protein intake

[transam]

Just now, Polanskiman said:

 

I'm 38 

Then go for it.....

[Brunolem]

1 minute ago, Polanskiman said:

So you would recommend white meats like chicken, fish, turkey and if need be some protein shakes before (1 hour or so) and after exercising?

And strongly limit carbs?

 

Also what about cardio? Are the 5/10 min the PT is making me do at each session enough?

OK...about the food first.

Fish and white meat are good, but preferably grilled...as little as possible oil or butter...

The protein shake, made with low fat milk, has to be taken around one hour to one hour thirty minute before starting the session.

The second shake, the most important, has to be taken just before bedtime.

 

About the training, cardio is good before moving weights.

First, it helps warming up the body and the muscles, which is important in order to avoid hurting yourself.

Then, it is important to note that the body only starts eating in the fat after a good 20 minutes of training.

Before that, it will eat all the available sugar...and in your case you want to train and eat the fat at the same time.

So, you hop on a gym bike, or similar, and have a good sweat for at least 20 minutes...then you move to the weights, for 30 to 45 minutes max.

And light weights in the beginning, because your muscles are going to release a lot of lactic acid, and you are not gonna like that!

[Polanskiman]

12 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

OK...about the food first.

Fish and white meat are good, but preferably grilled...as little as possible oil or butter...

The protein shake, made with low fat milk, has to be taken around one hour to one hour thirty minute before starting the session.

The second shake, the most important, has to be taken just before bedtime.

 

About the training, cardio is good before moving weights.

First, it helps warming up the body and the muscles, which is important in order to avoid hurting yourself.

Then, it is important to note that the body only starts eating in the fat after a good 20 minutes of training.

Before that, it will eat all the available sugar...and in your case you want to train and eat the fat at the same time.

So, you hop on a gym bike, or similar, and have a good sweat for at least 20 minutes...then you move to the weights, for 30 to 45 minutes max.

And light weights in the beginning, because your muscles are going to release a lot of lactic acid, and you are not gonna like that!

Ok thanks for the clarifications. It all a bit daunting when you read about the food diet that one must have in order to gain muscle.

After exercising should I also be taking a protein shake or having a high protein meal? I have read here and there that although carbs are to be avoided if one wants to lose weight they are also essential for muscle growth and specially after doing exercise.

 

What I would hate most is lose weight and also lose muscle mass.

 

I have already started the gym for 2 weeks already, I'm on my third now and I am not getting any pain anymore. But now the real challenge starts as I have no more PT.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Polanskiman

[bkk6060]

Just now, Brunolem said:

Reality is very different from what they show in ads.

In this case, it's even more because the OP has to lose quite a lot of weight, and is going to train lightly.

Losing kilos can be done quickly, but not gaining them back and replacing them by muscle is a whole different story.

The body has its own "memory", built by the daily routine of each of us.

Changing that routine, as in going from sitting hours in front of the TV to hitting the gym, creates a shock that the body will absorb only progressively, and with time it will adjust its "memory" accordingly.

Finally, it all depends on each individual behavior, how one sticks to one's diet ad to one's training...the body is much faster at losing muscle and storing fat, than the other way round...one evening at Pizza Hut and its one week of training through the window!

Reality is if one sticks to the plan they will see results in one month

Weight lose and slight toning. This is a proven fact.

If they do not stick to the plan, it doesn't matter they will never see results.

If it took people 6 months to see  "first results"  noone would ever go on any plan as that is way too long.  They would quit from frustration.

But post and believe whatever you think.

[transam]

Rule of thumb is not about weight you can move but about weight you can move with FULL range of motion for the desired number of reps...Fluffing around with weights you are struggling with without full range of motion does sod all....

 

I enjoyed watching and listening too Damien Patrick's youtube vids...

[Jimmyjames120]

35 minutes ago, Polanskiman said:

 

Is that the 'StrongLifts 5x5 Workout Log' I see in the app store?

 

Thanks for all the great advice.

Search stronglifts 5x5, only 1 I think. You can download for free and use it, I think it’s a lot better when you upgrade for a small fee.  

 

You don’t Need to lift heavy, it’s up to you, but you say you want to get strong and cut, this will make you STRONG but you won’t be walking around looking like a meathead with massive upper body and tiny legs, Squats work your whole body so everything will be in proportion, if you’ve only time for 1 exercise then squat.

 

Diet is to get cut, but don’t misinterpret the word diet, people think it means to stop eating, no, it means to eat healthy, when you start training you actually need to eat more, don’t worry, the fat will go bit by bit.

 

And don’t listen to Brunolem, he’s no idea what he’s talking about 

[Jimmyjames120]

7 minutes ago, transam said:

Rule of thumb is not about weight you can move but about weight you can move with FULL range of motion for the desired number of reps...Fluffing around with weights you are struggling with without full range of motion does sod all....

 

I enjoyed watching and listening too Damien Patrick's youtube vids...

Exactly, doing 5 reps perfectly will be far more beneficial than 10 incorrectly and specifically with a half range of motion because your trying to lift to heavy, this will only lead to an injury

[Polanskiman]

12 minutes ago, Jimmyjames120 said:

Search stronglifts 5x5, only 1 I think. You can download for free and use it, I think it’s a lot better when you upgrade for a small fee.  

 

You don’t Need to lift heavy, it’s up to you, but you say you want to get strong and cut, this will make you STRONG but you won’t be walking around looking like a meathead with massive upper body and tiny legs, Squats work your whole body so everything will be in proportion, if you’ve only time for 1 exercise then squat.

 

Diet is to get cut, but don’t misinterpret the word diet, people think it means to stop eating, no, it means to eat healthy, when you start training you actually need to eat more, don’t worry, the fat will go bit by bit.

 

And don’t listen to Brunolem, he’s no idea what he’s talking about 

The 'StrongLifts 5x5 Workout Log' is the only one I see. I'll look into it.

 

Yes I want to increase muscle mass, specially pectorals, arms, abs, shoulders. No meathead here just want to look good when you take your shirt off! 

 

For the diet, yes I am aware of what it means. But eating healthy is a wide concept. One needs to know exactly what eating healthy implies and also what is suitable for muscle volume increase.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Polanskiman

[Brunolem]

18 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Reality is if one sticks to the plan they will see results in one month

Weight lose and slight toning. This is a proven fact.

If they do not stick to the plan, it doesn't matter they will never see results.

If it took people 6 months to see  "first results"  noone would ever go on any plan as that is way too long.  They would quit from frustration.

But post and believe whatever you think.

I don't know how many years of bodybuilding and weightlifting you have behind you, but I have never seen anyone showing meaningful results after just only one month!

Real athletes do not quit over frustration after one month!

What about martial arts for example...you think that a beginner has something to show after one month?

That would rather be after at least a few years.

And the same goes for many things, like learning to play an instrument, for example...it takes more than a month to show results...

[Jimmyjames120]

21 minutes ago, Polanskiman said:

What I would hate most is lose weight and also lose muscle mass.

Then you must eat healthy to Lose fat, but eat MORE to gain muscle, I know it seems to contradict itself but not really, food is the building blocks and you are building your body. Also workout good, when it’s time to train, you focus and train.

 

By the way the 5x5 I recommend is because I’ve spent 20 years pissing about in gyms with endless dumbell curls etc and with no real effect, then I found stronglifts and in 3 months I’ve achieved more than in those 20 odd years, try it and if you don’t see a big improvement in 6 weeks, move on, but I think you’ll stay....

[Jimmyjames120]

5 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

I don't know how many years of bodybuilding and weightlifting you have behind you, but I have never seen anyone showing meaningful results after just only one month!

Real athletes do not quit over frustration after one month!

What about martial arts for example...you think that a beginner has something to show after one month?

That would rather be after at least a few years.

And the same goes for many things, like learning to play an instrument, for example...it takes more than a month to show results...

It’ll take more than 1 month to decifer what the <deleted> you are talking about 

[Polanskiman]

Let us not start a controversy over the time needed to have results. I don't expect to have pectorals like those of guys you see on protein whey ads in a month or two. Hell, not even in 6 months. I might of course lose 5/10 kg in 3/4 months but I don't think I'll be looking like a Baywatch guy any time soon unless anyone can prove me wrong otherwise.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Polanskiman

[Jimmyjames120]

7 minutes ago, Polanskiman said:

For the diet, yes I am aware of what it means. But eating healthy is a wide concept. One needs to know exactly what eating healthy implies and also what is suitable for muscle volume increase.

Everything you need to know is on Stronglifts website, there is a lot of info which is why I originally said to keep reading it, any spare minute have a look. 

[transam]

Web sites are just that....Many talk something different to others....Sift through it, try stuff, find what works for you...

[Polanskiman]

Just now, transam said:

Web sites are just that....Many talk something different to others....Sift through it, try stuff, find what works for you...

Websites are good. People's experience like the one you guys are giving is good as well as one can relate to that more easily than just generic explanations.

[Brunolem]

28 minutes ago, Polanskiman said:

Ok thanks for the clarifications. It all a bit daunting when you read about the food diet that one must have in order to gain muscle.

After exercising should I also be taking a protein shake or having a high protein meal? I have read here and there that although carbs are to be avoided if one wants to lose weight they are also essential for muscle growth and specially after doing exercise.

 

What I would hate most is lose weight and also lose muscle mass.

 

I have already started the gym for 2 weeks already, I'm on my third now and I am not getting any pain anymore. But now the real challenge starts as I have no more PT.

It is not easy to lose fat while gaining muscle...

For the proteins, it is very difficult to have a meal that will give you the same quantity of proteins as in a shake made of concentrated proteins.

That would require to eat a lot of whatever you woud have on your plate.

 

Carbo hydrates, or carbs in short, are also known as slow sugar, meaning that they dispense energy over a much longer period than fast sugar, a.k.a. sweet food.

 

You need them but the thing is to find the right equilibrium.

 

The body doesn't store proteins, but it also stores only a limited amount of sugar (energy readily available).

If you feed your body too much sugar, slow or fast, it will transform the excess into fat, and then store it!

[Polanskiman]

Ok so now we all agree that healthy eating and protein are the bases for muscle growth, can anyone recommend a good protein powder readily available in Bangkok? Something proven to be of good quality and obviously not too expensive.

 

I remember buying some protein shake many years ago here and then going to the see the doctor to do a blood test and the result came as I was having higher than usual 'female hormones'. Don't remember which hormone exactly but I was like <deleted>. I stopped the protein powder and my hormone level came back to normal.

[transam]

Just now, Polanskiman said:

Ok so now we all agree that healthy eating and protein are the bases for muscle growth, can anyone recommend a good protein powder readily available in Bangkok? Something proven to be of good quality and obviously not too expensive.

 

I remember buying some protein shake many years ago here and then going to the see the doctor to do a blood test and the result came as I was having higher than usual 'female hormones'. Don't remember which hormone exactly but I was like <deleted>. I stopped the protein powder and my hormone level came back to normal.

Not sure but many powders are just the protein taken out of milk...Still has calories....Perhaps just drink skimmed milk does the job....I like Tuna myself.....

[Polanskiman]

42 minutes ago, Jimmyjames120 said:

Then you must eat healthy to Lose fat, but eat MORE to gain muscle, I know it seems to contradict itself but not really, food is the building blocks and you are building your body. Also workout good, when it’s time to train, you focus and train.

 

By the way the 5x5 I recommend is because I’ve spent 20 years pissing about in gyms with endless dumbell curls etc and with no real effect, then I found stronglifts and in 3 months I’ve achieved more than in those 20 odd years, try it and if you don’t see a big improvement in 6 weeks, move on, but I think you’ll stay....

No that's totally understandable and I went through that many years ago when I trained quite hard for a period of 5 months. My body changed but unfortunately changes in life had me drop the gym and in less time that I could have imagined I lost all and started to put weight through the years. At my fittest point I was only 83kg and was lifting quite a bit. I remember the first time I tried to do parallels I couldn't even lift myself. After 5 months I was doing 4 sets of 12-15 rep but at that time I was working out 2 hours / 3 times a week + 1/2 day cardio hiking in steep mountain followed by a few body weight exercices.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Polanskiman

[Jimmyjames120]

41 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

It is not easy to lose fat while gaining muscle...

For the proteins, it is very difficult to have a meal that will give you the same quantity of proteins as in a shake made of concentrated proteins.

Again, absolute <deleted> 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Jimmyjames120

[Jimmyjames120]

21 minutes ago, transam said:

Not sure but many powders are just the protein taken out of milk...Still has calories....Perhaps just drink skimmed milk does the job....I like Tuna myself.....

Again, great advice, you don’t need shakes,  most are just marketing crap, some are great but still no substitute for Real food. Shakes are only really useful when your short on time to prepare food, even then just make it yourself, blend fresh milk, 4 egg whites and whatever fruit you fancy, add some yogurt if you like, nuts m, seeds etc. Job done.  Spinach works particularly well as it leaves no taste and is very nutritious 

[Brunolem]

4 minutes ago, Jimmyjames120 said:

Again, absolute <deleted> 

Anyone can make bold statements, the difficult part is to come up with facts to support such statements!

Just look at Trump!

So, about protein intake, please elaborate...for example, how much chicken meat should one eat in order to get 30 gr of proteins? Is it better to eat chicken or turkey for this purpose?

I am all for learning..

[Jim P]

Ok my opinion on this.

 

I am approx your height and 84k, body fat 12%, age 56.

 

Ok my opinion on this.

 

I am approx your height and 84k, body fat 12%, age 56.

 

Losing weight isn't your goal, you have to retain or build  muscle and burn fat, thats a different concept to losing weight. Looking leaner will naturally make you look muscular and beach fit. You are not a bodybuilder or have any desire to be one I assume. Don`t step on a weighing scale after you initial assessment, you goal isn't losing weight, your goal is changing your body composition. Use progression photos and the mirror.

 

Don`t make the first mistake of dropping tons of calories. The first thing you need to do is find out your body fat percentage, from this you can work out a diet plan. From there you must gradually drop the calories, maybe a hundred every month or so. Initially you may actually want to be in a surplus! As you are retaining or building muscle you need the calories and energy to reach that goal too. The more muscle mass you have the more calories you will burn, even sleeping.

 

You are not a bodybuilder so forget all the BS supplements that are promoted by companies that own the magazines and websites, just buy the cheapest protein shake you can and rarely use it, Creatine is the one supplement worth giving credit to. Make your calories good ones, eat  healthy carbs eg oats, potatoes etc healthy fats eg olive oil, natural peanut butter etc  and healthy proteins eg lean meats, eggs etc and drink lots of water everyday. You will need to buy a weighing scale, if you are serious about meeting your goals

 

As you are a similar height to me if for example you wanted to lose 13kg and retain or build a muscle mass I would allow  around 8 months to a year depending on how strict you are with your diet and workout routine, consistency is the key. I live by an 80-20 rule 80% good, 20% bad, beer, pizza etc You are a lot younger so time scales may be less I dont know.

 

I use mainly body weight exercises now I am getting older, so press ups, pull ups, dips, lunges etc For your age I would include squats, dead lifts, bench press, military press, rows. Use intensity, not sitting on your phone or chatting for half the session. Warm up properly, I never train more than 30 - 40 mins at a time. An ideal beginners cardio would be to set the treadmill to max elevation, thats usually level 15 and walk uphill at 3mph or 4.8kmph for 30 minutes, dont hold on to the machine, its harder than you think. You can then work towards more intense cardio sessions that combine large body movements and high intensity.

 

Good luck

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Jim P

[Jimmyjames120]

11 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Anyone can make bold statements, the difficult part is to come up with facts to support such statements!

Just look at Trump!

So, about protein intake, please elaborate...for example, how much chicken meat should one eat in order to get 30 gr of proteins? Is it better to eat chicken or turkey for this purpose?

I am all for learning..

Trump....?   I rest my case

[transam]

Come on now chaps..........Back to the OP.....Shaping up is easy but can be difficult..

Really it is what's between your ears that will get you to where you want to go...

 

You want to lose weight/fat, then stop eating drink loads of stuff cos your body don't need it, if it did you would not be fat...

 

If you over eat you would have to exercise heaps to burn it off, so that is your first goal...Moderate...

If you have not done weight training and you start you will see near immediate progress because you are pumping muscle you probably have never used...Takes about 3 months to get that stuff moving before you move on...Stuff after the 3 months will become slower to improve but don't be disheartened, you will improve. During that first 3 months do not over do it, later you will find your way..

[Polanskiman]

36 minutes ago, Jim P said:

Ok my opinion on this.

 

I am approx your height and 84k, body fat 12%, age 56.

 

Ok my opinion on this.

 

I am approx your height and 84k, body fat 12%, age 56.

 

Losing weight isn't your goal, you have to retain or build  muscle and burn fat, thats a different concept to losing weight. Looking leaner will naturally make you look muscular and beach fit. You are not a bodybuilder or have any desire to be one I assume. Don`t step on a weighing scale after you initial assessment, you goal isn't losing weight, your goal is changing your body composition. Use progression photos and the mirror.

 

Don`t make the first mistake of dropping tons of calories. The first thing you need to do is find out your body fat percentage, from this you can work out a diet plan. From there you must gradually drop the calories, maybe a hundred every month or so. Initially you may actually want to be in a surplus! As you are retaining or building muscle you need the calories and energy to reach that goal too. The more muscle mass you have the more calories you will burn, even sleeping.

 

You are not a bodybuilder so forget all the BS supplements that are promoted by companies that own the magazines and websites, just buy the cheapest protein shake you can and rarely use it, Creatine is the one supplement worth giving credit to. Make your calories good ones, eat  healthy carbs eg oats, potatoes etc healthy fats eg olive oil, natural peanut butter etc  and healthy proteins eg lean meats, eggs etc and drink lots of water everyday. You will need to buy a weighing scale, if you are serious about meeting your goals

 

As you are a similar height to me if for example you wanted to lose 13kg and retain or build a muscle mass I would allow  around 8 months to a year depending on how strict you are with your diet and workout routine, consistency is the key. I live by an 80-20 rule 80% good, 20% bad, beer, pizza etc You are a lot younger so time scales may be less I dont know.

 

I use mainly body weight exercises now I am getting older, so press ups, pull ups, dips, lunges etc For your age I would include squats, dead lifts, bench press, military press, rows. Use intensity, not sitting on your phone or chatting for half the session. Warm up properly, I never train more than 30 - 40 mins at a time. An ideal beginners cardio would be to set the treadmill to max elevation, thats usually level 15 and walk uphill at 3mph or 4.8kmph for 30 minutes, dont hold on to the machine, its harder than you think. You can then work towards more intense cardio sessions that combine large body movements and high intensity.

 

Good luck

 

Hi Jim,

 

Thanks for the detailed explanations and advice. I wasn't expecting so many people sharing their experience and being so generous in providing information. Obviously I was wrong.

 

In terms of body fat, the hi-tech machine I used at the gym printed some fancy numbers and said I was somewhere around 25% of body fat.

Regarding the food, the reason I talk about protein powder is because I usually do my gym in the morning 9-10am and then go to work so I don't have time to prepare my own food and so a protein shake would make things easy for me. Of course for breakfast and dinner I could eat proper healthy natural food.

I though that creatine had the effect of increasing water retention in muscles but once stopped then the muscle would also decrease in volume. Is that correct?

 

My initial goal was to lose around 10/14 kg since that would put me at around 83/84 kg which is supposed to be my 'normal' weight in relation to my hight. But the thing is I don't want to look skinny and instead want to increase muscle mass / volume and look as you put, beach fit. By the way how long did it take you to build that body? I could see myself looking like that!

 

Thanks again.

[tonray]

5 hours ago, transam said:

The Thai guy, my chum, was a pro kick boxer in his youth

 

Muay Thai in his youth and Pad Thai now....5555 (just kidding)

[bkk6060]

4 minutes ago, tonray said:

 

Muay Thai in his youth and Pad Thai now....5555 (just kidding)

and Sangsom....

[Polanskiman]

8 minutes ago, transam said:

Come on now chaps..........Back to the OP.....Shaping up is easy but can be difficult..

Really it is what's between your ears that will get you to where you want to go...

 

You want to lose weight/fat, then stop eating drink loads of stuff cos your body don't need it, if it did you would not be fat...

 

If you over eat you would have to exercise heaps to burn it off, so that is your first goal...Moderate...

If you have not done weight training and you start you will see near immediate progress because you are pumping muscle you probably have never used...Takes about 3 months to get that stuff moving before you move on...Stuff after the 3 months will become slower to improve but don't be disheartened, you will improve. During that first 3 months do not over do it, later you will find your way..

I do not over eat. I usually have 3 rather basic meals a day. No more than the average person.  The problem is more related to the fact that I seat behind a computer all day long and haven't exercised in years.

 

I did hard trained many years ago as I said above but that was long time ago. I was 84kg at that time. I'm 97kg now. Actually I think I have already lost 1kg during these 2 weeks but I think I haven't been eating properly. I'll try to change that.

[Bob12345]

8 hours ago, Brunolem said:

The most important is not how much protein you eat, but when and how.

First, your body cannot absorb more than about 30 to 40 gr of proteins at once...which is why bodybuilders eat 5 or 6 meals a day, including in the middle of the night!

Don't agree with you there; twice.

 

Meal and protein intake timing are really not that important at amateur level and the quantity/quality count for much more unless in extreme cases. When you eat a steak it will take 8-10 hours to completely digest meaning you have protein available for that period of time. As long as you eat 3 meals a day with some protein in each you don't have to worry about timing. Most eat more meals...

 

Same reasoning with why i don't agree with the 30-40 grams a meal. A steak takes 8 hours to digest and there are only 24 hours in a day. That means you can have only 3 meals a day of 30-40 grams of protein each. Thats a bit low for a bodybuilder who normally reaches 3g/kg a day. 

 

While having a huge surgein proteins available at a point in time will have diminishing returns, you don't have to worry about that as long as you not only drink whey shakes all day long. Get most of your proteins out real food (eggs, meat, dairy, fish, etc) and forget about that silly 40 grams a meal rule.

 

And don't copy too much from bodybuilders. Things change a lot when you introduce steroids meaning you cannot simply copy what they are doing.

 

Regarding dieting i always follow the following pyramid (from most important to least important:

1. Calories (surplus, deficit)

2. Macro's (fats, proteins, carbs)

3. Micro's (vitamins, minerals, water intake, etc)

4. Meal timing

5. Supplements

 

Don't start focusing on #2 before you got #1 under control, etc.