Pricing Policies At Sansuk Sauna, Racist Or Not Racist?

[Thaiquila]

There is a new gay sauna in town in Pattaya! It is called Sansuk.

Word is their pricing policy is based on whether you are Thai or not.

Younger Thais, free, older Thais 1/2 price, Farangs, full price.

Do you feel this is racist?

While on the topic of double pricing based on Thainess in Thailand, please comment on other gay saunas and whether they practise double pricing or not.

GSM sauna in Bangkok double prices (no prices are posted which is typical but farangs are charged double)

Babylon, no double pricing, correct?

Other saunas in Thailand, double pricing, or not?

It is interesting the new sauna in Pattaya which is positioning itself as the Babylon of Pattaya, feels the need to practise double pricing based on Thainess, which of course many farangs find very objectionable.

Seems to me if the aim is to attract a large pool of younger men, an owner could discount based on age (a common and popular tactic in the US), and not on race, and therefore not have to indulge in the controversial area cesspool of race based double pricing.

Edited January 13, 2007 by Thaiquila

[londonthai]

would be rather nationalist but not racist

[Thaiquila]

would be rather nationalist but not racist

Good point. But isn't it true that many Thais consider Thais to be a race?

http://www.thailand-guide.org/arts/index.htm

Towards the end of the 13th century, Khmer power in this area waned and new kingdoms dominated by the Thai RACE developed, including the northern Lanna kingdom. Beginning by nibbling away at the perimeter of the Khmer empire at Sukhothai and in Lanna some 700 years ago, the Thai RACE later established the glorious court at Ayutthaya, and eventually Bangkok. Over the past centuries, many peoples, among them the Chinese, Arabs, Malays and Westerners, have contributed to Thailand's cultural heritage. The Thai race show their appreciation for these contributions with the practise of double pricing. : last sentence a joke!

Edited January 13, 2007 by Thaiquila

[londonthai]

racists are part of their imagined race, nationalists/patriots have a delusion about existance of nations and their own superiority over the other cultures, socialists see the society by the class devision and don't play petty games.

[jumnien]

Asian, Caucasian and Negroid are definitely races; being Thai is not. Perhaps they are closer to linking pricing with GDP. Average Thai about $3,000, average farang about $30,000. Sounds kind of Marxist to me; from each according to their means, to each according to their need. There is nothing in the world as unfair as the despicable single pricing system in place in countries that have differential wages and income. Why should a Burmese get paid 100 baht a day for hard labour while a New Yorker gets paid $150/day for less work and why should they pay the same price for goods and services; it's absurd and unjustifiable.

Edited January 13, 2007 by mdeland

[Thaiquila]

Interesting, so you think the capitalistic owners of these gay saunas are Thai communists? I am sure they would be pleased.

In that case, do you think they would extend the free entry to destitute 80 year old Welsh pensioners and deny the discount to Thais arriving by Benz?

Edited January 13, 2007 by Thaiquila

[jumnien]

No, I think anyone opening a gay sauna is suspect to begin with. However, inadvertantly, similar to national park entrance fees in Thailand, they have developed a system that is far more fair than the odious single pricing system. Same with AIDS medications worldwide, pricing should be based on local ability to pay somewhat. Just because on filthy rich Nigerian has AIDS doesn't mean all Nigerians should have to pay the same as an AIDS patient in New York; that just isn't feasable or humane.

[Thaiquila]

I can't help but agree that poorer nations should get lower cost access to medications. But these things are never clean. For example, 50 million Americans in so called rich America have no access to health care, maybe they should move to Nigeria.

Gay saunas are luxury entertainment, not the same type of thing as life saving medications.

But we digress, back to the gay saunas. I don't think it is necessary in this talk about double pricing to link a discussion of gay saunas and HIV because unsafe sex can occur just as easily in a private room as a public sauna.

Edited January 13, 2007 by Thaiquila

[jumnien]

Actually, I didn't mean to link gay saunas and AIDS medication, freudian slip; I just was bringing up one price fits all mean-spiritedness in so many situations. Back to luxury entertainment issues, I think it is a bit much to organize massive public protests because some disco has a ladies night and gives ladies a break on the admission on Thursday nights and how unfair is that? Perhaps, a bit of protest about the war in Iraq would be more appropriate.

[Thaiquila]

Actually, I didn't mean to link gay saunas and AIDS medication, freudian slip; I just was bringing up one price fits all mean-spiritedness in so many situations. Back to luxury entertainment issues, I think it is a bit much to organize massive public protests because some disco has a ladies night and gives ladies a break on the admission on Thursday nights and how unfair is that? Perhaps, a bit of protest about the war in Iraq would be more appropriate.

Good point, but ...

Pricing promotions based on sex and age are generally less objectionable than pricing promotions based on race or nationality. There are scores of people on this board complaining about double pricing (Thai/farang) in Thailand, but I never heard of anybody complain about a kiddy discount at an amusement park. Thailand is not like the US nor should it be, but for example in the US, this kind of commercial double pricing would be illegal. Can you imagine a nightclub where Mexicans get charged more or less than Anglos? There would literally be violent riots.

Iraq? A worthy topic, perhaps another forum.

Edited January 13, 2007 by Thaiquila

[jumnien]

There are many ways that Thailand is different than life on the US - Mexico border. That's why I live here. Acceptance is the key!

[ProThaiExpat]

I don't see it as a race issue but an economic one. I am sure a young and attractive backpacker falang could get the Thai price by simply asking someone in management. In doing this, he would be obtaining a discount as a "desireable customer". Bars give free drinks to young and attractive Thais so they will "draw" older and wealthier clients, so why shouldn't saunas attract clientele that way.

I have been told that in Chiang Mai, House of Male Sauna has two for one nights. Busiest night of the week so I hear. Anything that makes the business profitable is OK with me, after all the customer expresses his displeasure by walking out or not going in.

[Thaiquila]

Acceptance is the key!

Is that why vaseline sales are up!

Pretty much all of the US is now the US - Mexican border, been there lately?

Edited January 14, 2007 by Thaiquila

[Thaiquila]

I don't see it as a race issue but an economic one. I am sure a young and attractive backpacker falang could get the Thai price by simply asking someone in management. In doing this, he would be obtaining a discount as a "desireable customer". Bars give free drinks to young and attractive Thais so they will "draw" older and wealthier clients, so why shouldn't saunas attract clientele that way.

I have been told that in Chiang Mai, House of Male Sauna has two for one nights. Busiest night of the week so I hear. Anything that makes the business profitable is OK with me, after all the customer expresses his displeasure by walking out or not going in.

Hi ProThaiExpat,

I agree a private business has the right to seek profits and success by doing what they can to attract the kinds of customers that will attract more paying customers of all kinds.

However, couldn't this be done without getting into the messy area of race/nationality special preferences by just openly offering discounts for ALL young people? Also, in the case of Thai double pricing, this applies to ALL Thais, young and old, rich and poor.

Two for one nights have nothing to do with this issue. That is a totally innocuous promotion. Also, totally age based promotions wouldn't offend hardly anyone.

However, policies that are clearly based on race/nationality, aren't these inheritently cans of worms? If not, why do so many Thai businesses (including saunas) who do practice race/nationality double pricing keep it on the hush hush, and not openly post signs that they are doing this? Perhaps they are ashamed? Isn't the grand old Tourism Authority of Thailand itself proclaiming that this is indeed a national problem?

Another example, suppose your favorite Thai restaurant posted a big new sign saying:

NON THAIS MUST PAY DOUBLE!

How would that make you feel? Welcome? The truth is a restaurant practising that policy would never post any sign like that; instead they would hand farangs a farang menu or have no menu at all.

Edited January 14, 2007 by Thaiquila

[bibendum]

I don't see it as a race issue but an economic one.

I'm with this view.

It's an issue of economics; Thais generally earn less than farangs so give them the chance to get in at a lower price. Also, and importantly, young Thais are who we go to saunas to meet and a sauna full of young Thais will draw in the higher paying farangs. I think the owner of the sauna recognises this and has made a smart move to let young Thais in free or at a discount.

Frankly, it does not bother me if I have to pay more than a local to visit a place I enjoy.

[PaulUSA302]

I am old enough to remember being charged more for candy because I did not look like the white child I was with who purchased the same candy. I still remember being treated different because I did not look like or pass for a person that looked like the majority race that lived here in the USA during that time...

When I come to Thailand and I see double pricing because I do not look like or can pass for a member of the majority race in Thailand I don't smile or think how nice it is that they are willing to fine me at a higher rate because I am not one of them.

I don't like it and I try not to spend my money there.

I have been to Thailand many times and I will not spent my money on any tourist trap that charges me higher or double... I did once but never again.

I don't complain about it I simply refuse to support it with my money.

[jumnien]

I still just don't see how people can get so upset when the hopelessly poor people that clean our toilets are changed less than we are. It just seems fair.

[PaulUSA302]

I am glad I am not Thai. I know your words are meant to be helpful but if I were Thai I would be offended to know that I would be looked upon as a toilet washer or some common slug. The Thai people are no different than anyone else in the world. They are Doctors, Rulers, Owners of businesses, Police officers, Nurses, Teachers and some wash toilets just as every other race of person on this planet. Don't pity them..... If your life is that much better than be happy for yourself but don't think that their life is so pitiful because they do not have the same things you have.

I still just don't see how people can get so upset when the hopelessly poor people that clean our toilets are changed less than we are. It just seems fair.

[jumnien]

I am glad I am not Thai. I know your words are meant to be helpful but if I were Thai I would be offended to know that I would be looked upon as a toilet washer or some common slug. The Thai people are no different than anyone else in the world. They are Doctors, Rulers, Owners of businesses, Police officers, Nurses, Teachers and some wash toilets just as every other race of person on this planet. Don't pity them..... If your life is that much better than be happy for yourself but don't think that their life is so pitiful because they do not have the same things you have.

I still just don't see how people can get so upset when the hopelessly poor people that clean our toilets are changed less than we are. It just seems fair.

I think the life of Thai people is better than that of the lives of people where I came from, that's why I'm here, to absorb some of that spirit.

Undoubtedly, there are some very, very wealthy Cambodians as well. But the average Cambodian has an income so much lower than my own that it seems nuts to worry, in general, if Cambodians are let into Anghor Wat at a substantially reduced rate. It seems criminal to charge them the $20/day rate. Likewise with Thais, in general.

[PaulUSA302]

If all the Farang and visitors were to vanish from Thailand I don't think the country would vanish from the planet. I think the people would settle into a way of life that reflects their own economy. No need to pity them because they live in a happy small home if they do in fact live in a happy small home. Who are we to look at another persons life and cast pity on them because we would not want to live their life in their situation?

And I hope no one will pity me simply because I choose not to be cheated from my money... The money I earned while washing toilets of my own....

Edited January 15, 2007 by PaulUSA302

[sfokevin]

Here in San Francisco there is a bathhouse that let the 18-29yo in for a discounted price... That seems discriminatory but no one complains :thumbsup:

Edited January 15, 2007 by sfokevin

[PaulUSA302]

Any person of any race, creed, color or nationality would qualify for that discount. We who are not Thai can never be Thai. There is a difference.

Here in San Francisco there is a bathhouse that let the 18-21yo in for free... That seems discriminatory but no one complains :thumbsup:

[jumnien]

Any person of any race, creed, color or nationality would qualify for that discount. We who are not Thai can never be Thai. There is a difference.

Here in San Francisco there is a bathhouse that let the 18-21yo in for free... That seems discriminatory but no one complains :thumbsup:

Let's not get too Politically Correct on getting a little cheap young butt into the playground. It's not exactly a human rights issue that Amnesty International need address!

[sfokevin]

:thumbsup:

[PaulUSA302]

The conversation was about being charged double the price if you were not born Thai or if you are preceived non-Thai.

Any person of any race, creed, color or nationality would qualify for that discount. We who are not Thai can never be Thai. There is a difference.

Here in San Francisco there is a bathhouse that let the 18-21yo in for free... That seems discriminatory but no one complains :thumbsup:

Let's not get too Politically Correct on getting a little cheap young butt into the playground. It's not exactly a human rights issue that Amnesty International need address!

[jumnien]

The conversation was about being charged double the price if you were not born Thai or if you are preceived non-Thai.

Am I confused? I thought the issue was giving 50% discounts to Thais.

[sfokevin]

Younger Thais, free, older Thais 1/2 price, Farangs, full price.

I think the pricing is designed to attract a good mix.... Please lets remember why Pattaya is such a popular vacation spot...

[PaulUSA302]

They could do that by having age-range prices... or do as they do at Babylon or House of Male and offer discounts, buddy nights and student discounts.

Younger Thais, free, older Thais 1/2 price, Farangs, full price.

I think the pricing is designed to attract a good mix.... Please lets remember why Pattaya is such a popular vacation spot...

[Thaiquila]

PaulUSA302,

Thank you for your excellent testimony about exactly why this kind of race/nationality based price discrimination is morally and ethically wrong, in any culture. Some kinds of wrongs transcend culture.

There is no moral difference between what happened to you as a boy (overcharged for candy because of your race) and what could happen today at the Sansuk Sauna in Pattaya, when two 20 year olds approach the front desk, one Thai, and one a WHITE Russian. The Thai is waved in for FREE, the Russian must pay the "farang price" of 180 baht. A few minutes later, two 65 years old arrive, one Thai and one a baht pinching pensioner from Wales. The Thai (who happens to own a multi-million dollar tourist trap restaurant) is greeted with a half price discount, while the man from Wales who survives on tuna tins and street noodles, must pay the "farang price", full price.

Price discrimination based on race/nationality. It is just wrong.

Like said before, price discrimination based on AGE for promotional purposes is simply much less odious. It includes the people in that age bracket of ALL races and nationalities for both the discounts and the full price entry. Quite correct, a price promotion system based on AGE only would remove this controversy.

Now Paul suggested boycotting businesses practicing immoral race/nationality based pricing. That is a reasonable course of action. However, in Pattaya, home of the Sansuk Gay Sauna, there is now only ONE gay sauna in town. So consumers wishing to boycott that sauna based on their race based pricing policies have no other place to go in town. So it is appropriate to confront the Sansuk Gay sauna about their offensive, race/nationality based policies directly, rather than boycotting them. (Funny word, boycott?)

BTW, it is a total insult to Thai people to stereotype them as toilet cleaners.

Edited January 15, 2007 by Thaiquila

[Thaiquila]

I wonder if people think this point is relevant to this issue. The owner of the Sansuk Sauna spent several years in the US. I find it odd that such a person would move back to Thailand and then open a very high profile business that practices race/nationality based discrimination.

Such commercial business policies in the US now would land you in jail and subject to protests and riots.

Look, I know that I am coming off aggressive about this issue. Thats how stongly I feel about it. If an owner has the gall to institute race discrimination in a business, in my view, he bloody well best be aware that these are controversial, and there might be some very unpleasant bad public relations consequences. A business owner of the first large gay sauna in Pattaya, the so called Babylon of Pattaya, is a public figure.

Edited January 15, 2007 by Thaiquila