Removal of cadet’s organs ‘normal procedure’

[webfact]

Removal of cadet’s organs ‘normal procedure’

By Pratch Rujivanarom 
The Nation

 

Photo from: @js100radio

 

The Central Institute of Forensic Science (CIFS) has said it is normal procedure to collect the organs from a body without telling the deceased’s family. The revelation follows concerns from the family of a dead military student about the removal of his internal body parts.

It was also revealed that the organs of the 18-year-old military student will be sent to the institute for a second examination on Thursday.

 

CIFS deputy director Dr Trairit Temahiwong told a press conference on Wednesday that it was lawful for a forensic doctor and investigation team to collect organs and tissues from a body without notifying the relatives. This was to allow for a thorough examination on the organs.

 

Moreover, this would be helpful in this particular case, as it will help the medical team to accurately identify the cause of death.

 

First-year Armed Forces Academies Preparatory School student Phakhapong “Moei” Tanyakan died at the school on October 17 and an initial report identified his cause of death as acute heart failure

 

The body was examined for a second time and many of the internal organs were missing. This caused Phakhapong’s family great concern.

 

Trairit said that, according to the law, in the case of suspicious death, the investigation team can collect the organs from a body without asking relatives’ permission. This was necessary because in some cases the relatives themselves might be behind the death and might attempt to interfere with the investigation.

 

“It makes sense for the forensic team at Phramongkutklao Hospital to remove the brain, heart and some other organs for further examination, because this is complex case, as the dead student was young and healthy,” he said.

 

He said they were working on the assumption that the Phramongkutklao Hospital forensic team “collected these organs for more intensive examination to clearly identify Phakhapong’s cause of death”.

 

Dr Panchai Wohandee, head of CIFS Forensic Work Development Division, also explained that, to clearly determine the cause of death in a complex case such as this, the forensic team has to examine the organs, especially the brain and heart, at a molecular level. This is because traces of fatal symptoms often showed in these organs.

 

Panchai also noted that the cause of death stated in a death certificate often reflected the results of a preliminary autopsy. This can be updated if a later intensive autopsy result revealed otherwise.

 

Meanwhile, CIFS director Som Promros revealed that the institute had made contact with the Phramongkutklao Hospital forensic team, and the hospital said it would transfer the collected organs to CIFS on Thursday for examination.

 

Som stated that the autopsy result would be finished by November 30, as the institute could not conclude the cause of death without inspection of these important organs.

 

He also said that the trainee’s broken rib might be explained by the application of intensive CPR, and did not necessarily mean that Phakhapong was beaten to death.

 

“The Justice Minister directly ordered CIFS to find the truth behind the cadet student death and provide justice for his family and we pledge to do so,” he stressed.

 

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30332257

 

-- © Copyright The Nation 2017-11-22

[Somtamnication]

Especially if they are bruised. 

[NUUM]

Normal procedures in abnormal circumstances...

[rkidlad]

17 minutes ago, webfact said:

Trairit said that, according to the law, in the case of suspicious death, the investigation team can collect the organs from a body without asking relatives’ permission

Yes, it’s a perfect law. If he’s been beaten, take his organs away so no one will know. Why would you need to ask for permission? It’s flawless already. 

[DrTuner]

How much is the going rate for a kidney these days?

[kotsak]

12 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

How much is the going rate for a kidney these days?

There was a kid in China who sold one so he can get an iPhone but who knows how much the person who needed it paid for it..

[andersonat]

"The Central Institute of Forensic Science (CIFS) has said it is normal procedure to collect the organs from a body without telling the deceased’s family."

 

 - It might be the "usual" procedure (carried out by people who never have to explain, or seek support for, their actions), but it's certainly *not* "normal" to do this.

Edited November 22, 2017 by andersonat

[YetAnother]

3 hours ago, webfact said:

CIFS deputy director Dr Trairit Temahiwong told a press conference on Wednesday that it was lawful for a forensic doctor and investigation team to collect organs and tissues from a body without notifying the relatives. This was to allow for a thorough examination on the organs.

head-in-hands; OMG; the crap there

[YetAnother]

3 hours ago, webfact said:

Removal of cadet’s organs ‘normal procedure’

i used to think this place was primitive; now i search for lower descriptions

[Lupatria]

3 hours ago, webfact said:

This was necessary because in some cases the relatives themselves might be behind the death and might attempt to interfere with the investigation.

Were there any family members at the army's playground when he died? And where do the collected organs go, in the trash can or for sale on the very lucrative organ market? If this procedure is in line with the law, than it is a license for legal organ trade without need to have an organ donor card, or consent of family members.

[Oziex1]

So I read the headline.

 

My first thought was "Oh no it isn't "

[stephen tracy]

The Thai military is very good at beating it's conscripts to death but God help them if they ever had to actually fight a war.

[Dazinoz]

41 minutes ago, YetAnother said:

i used to think this place was primitive; now i search for lower descriptions

Unfortunately I don't think they have reached that level yet. 

[dinsdale]

Just another cover up. Organs don't need to be removed initially. Visual inspection, tissue sampling, blood work can all be done without the extraction of organs. A burst liver or spleen for example due to trauma, resulting in internal bleeding causing death does not need the extraction of organs for a diagnosis.

[Crash999]

At first I thought it was recruits donating organs. 

 

Like, “sorry cadet we are we are taking a kidney this year.”

[JAG]

55 minutes ago, stephen tracy said:

The Thai military is very good at beating it's conscripts to death but God help them if they ever had to actually fight a war.

They couldn't fight sleep.

 

Mid you - walk on a path at the military academy which your status does not allow you to sully and....

 

I wonder if they realise how utterly pathetic all the excuses and protestations that procedures were followed is making them look?

Edited November 22, 2017 by JAG

[mettech]

In America we sign a donator card and they take away anything left that is good for further transplant.

Although  wit a  weak economy donation become a transaction for a price on the organ the underground market get it for free like assassination in a frighten scale.

[Proboscis]

3 hours ago, andersonat said:

"The Central Institute of Forensic Science (CIFS) has said it is normal procedure to collect the organs from a body without telling the deceased’s family."

 

 - It might be the "usual" procedure (carried out by people who never have to explain, or seek support for, their actions), but it's certainly *not* "normal" to do this.

What was being performed was an autopsy - it would have been very abnormal if a post mortem had not been performed given the age of the deceased.

 

It is also normal for organs to be kept separate from the body. If the family had required a second opinion which would have been a second autopsy, then that could have been accommodated. In the latter case, all materials would have been made available to the second autopsy team.

 

In this case I am guessing that the family asked for the body to be released and are now kicking up because organs are missing. What do they expect when there has been an autopsy? To be handed a bag full of organs?

 

 

[andersonat]

11 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

What was being performed was an autopsy - it would have been very abnormal if a post mortem had not been performed given the age of the deceased.

 

It is also normal for organs to be kept separate from the body. If the family had required a second opinion which would have been a second autopsy, then that could have been accommodated. In the latter case, all materials would have been made available to the second autopsy team.

 

In this case I am guessing that the family asked for the body to be released and are now kicking up because organs are missing. What do they expect when there has been an autopsy? To be handed a bag full of organs?

 

 

 

P,

 

the family intended to have a second autopsy performed - they were unpleasantly surprised to find out that various organs were not included with the rest of the body when it was released to them -- the organs had been "collected" during the first autopsy,  were therefore withheld from the family, and were *not* available to the second autopsy team.

 

[chickenslegs]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

Meanwhile, CIFS director Som Promros revealed that the institute had made contact with the Phramongkutklao Hospital forensic team, and the hospital said it would transfer the collected organs to CIFS on Thursday for examination.

According to this Coconuts article, the original autopsy was more than a month ago. If it was so important to have these vital organs removed and examined why have they waited until now to send them to the lab?

 

https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/military-school-says-student-died-heart-attack-parents-find-organs-missing-secret-autopsy/

 

IMHO, the family has every right to be suspicious about this 18 yr old's death. I hope they get some honest answers.

[max2u]

As ever, the medical experts have rung in proclaiming the non-necessary removal of internal organs.

 

"As ever," since 'tis common practice 'mongst many posting punters to presume that uniformed branches of beloved Kingdom are in the main, either inept, corrupt, or both, and expound with varieties of speculative sass.

(I see now later, sager informatories--good! ) 

 

Whether innuendos of cover-ups OR of transplant trade cash-ins, in common is opined that some mischief was afoot.

 

With regards to the former, much depends on measures of preservation, or the lack thereof.

 

Alas, for the forensic pathologist, many a hoodlum has not the consideration of providing rapid refrigeration nor post-mortem fixation of internal organs prior to leaving the scene of the crime (<sarcasm) , but even with the advent of early days' decay (and beyond, oh yes) there can remain, umm, viable traces of traumatic damage and both toxicological and cytological  signs indicative of how the Reaper was welcomed to harvest time.

 

Now for the latter alternative, of  transplant larceny most foul, one needs to work with more haste.

In fact, for a number of internal organs, such as the heart and lungs, by the time the victim arrives on the slab, those pieces may as well go to the pigs, than to being purloined, for cell death absent continual oxygenation {i.e., the "heart-lung" machine} as can be provided in the OR (or by PRC prison technicians, LOL!) makes of the meat no more than fare for the butcher's beast, at best. (The kidneys can go longer if carved out on the quick and transported meticulously), but still, everything inside gets to dying when the vic hits the bricks.

 

So why in the World other than for nefarious needs would those inner organs be taken out, IF as one or more may say, all that need be seen can be done *in situ* once the corpse is laid open? Well, for the quite proper procedures of physical and cytological and toxicological examination, and why KEPT out?

 

Ummm, the pieces can be put back in place and the 'container' sewn up sooner or later, but if and when initial pathology lab testings give uncertain findings needing repeats or higher sensitivity analyses, it's a bloody Hell more efficacious to go to the jars in the lab fridge, than back down to the fridge in the morgue for another dip into the cadaver.

Edited November 22, 2017 by max2u
response regarding later posts

[billmichael]

Judge Judy has a saying, "Do not pee on my leg and tell me it is raining."

[chickenslegs]

13 minutes ago, max2u said:

As ever, the medical experts have rung in proclaiming the non-necessary removal of internal organs.

 

"As ever," since 'tis common practice 'mongst many posting punters to presume that uniformed branches of beloved Kingdom are in the main, either inept, corrupt, or both, and expound with varieties of speculative sass.

(I see now later, sager informatories--good! ) 

 

Whether innuendos of cover-ups OR of transplant trade cash-ins, in common is opined that some mischief was afoot.

 

With regards to the former, much depends on measures of preservation, or the lack thereof.

 

Alas, for the forensic pathologist, many a hoodlum has not the consideration of providing rapid refrigeration nor post-mortem fixation of internal organs prior to leaving the scene of the crime (<sarcasm) , but even with the advent of early days' decay (and beyond, oh yes) there can remain, umm, viable traces of traumatic damage and both toxicological and cytological  signs indicative of how the Reaper was welcomed to harvest time.

 

Now for the latter alternative, of  transplant larceny most foul, one needs to work with more haste.

In fact, for a number of internal organs, such as the heart and lungs, by the time the victim arrives on the slab, those pieces may as well go to the pigs, than to being purloined, for cell death absent continual oxygenation {i.e., the "heart-lung" machine} as can be provided in the OR (or by PRC prison technicians, LOL!) makes of the meat no more than fare for the butcher's beast, at best. (The kidneys can go longer if carved out on the quick and transported meticulously), but still, everything inside gets to dying when the vic hits the bricks.

 

So why in the World other than for nefarious needs would those inner organs be taken out, IF as one or more may say, all that need be seen can be done *in situ* once the corpse is laid open? Well, for the quite proper procedures of physical and cytological and toxicological examination, and why KEPT out?

 

Ummm, the pieces can be put back in place and the 'container' sewn up sooner or later, but if and when initial pathology lab testings give uncertain findings needing repeats or higher sensitivity analyses, it's a bloody Hell more efficacious to go to the jars in the lab fridge, than back down to the fridge in the morgue for another dip into the cadaver.

Does this explain why the organs have not been sent for further examination, over a month after the original autopsy? - and only after a second examination revealed that the organs were missing AND the family has asked questions?

 

Quote

He [ CIFS deputy director Dr Trairit Temahiwong] said they were working on the assumption that the Phramongkutklao Hospital forensic team “collected these organs for more intensive examination to clearly identify Phakhapong’s cause of death”.

That "assumption" may be correct - or not.

 

[max2u]

 

4 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

Does this explain why the organs have not been sent for further examination, over a month after the original autopsy? - and only after a second examination revealed that the organs were missing AND the family has asked questions?

 

That "assumption" may be correct - or not.

 

toxicology tests can take over a month--months, even

 

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/features/the-truth-about-toxicology-tests#1

[chickenslegs]

1 minute ago, max2u said:

 

toxicology tests can take over a month--months, even

 

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/features/the-truth-about-toxicology-tests#1

My point is - they haven't even sent them off for testing yet ... 

 

Quote

Meanwhile, CIFS director Som Promros revealed that the institute had made contact with the Phramongkutklao Hospital forensic team, and the hospital said it would transfer the collected organs to CIFS on Thursday for examination.

 

[max2u]

1 minute ago, chickenslegs said:

My point is - they haven't even sent them off for testing yet ... 

 

 

that does seem odd

[chickenslegs]

4 minutes ago, max2u said:

that does seem odd

 

Especially when there is a history of this 18 year old being severely punished in a previous incident ...

Quote

The parents are demanding answers about what happened to their son and that the missing organs be returned.

They told media that their son said he had been severely disciplined at the school and that, one time, he was punished so badly that his heart stopped beating.

Sukanya shared that her son told her that he had been forced to stand on his head in the bathroom and had gone into shock on a previous occasion.

This is from the Coconuts article I linked in a previous post.

[max2u]

16 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

 

Especially when there is a history of this 18 year old being severely punished in a previous incident ...

This is from the Coconuts article I linked in a previous post.

That goes to suspicious, at face.   Whether of what done to him or by whom (hmm..and if he'd done himself, for that matter, whether by intent or gone too far  with 'self anesthesia'  .      . . how to tell?  I do wonder also about "heart stopped beating previously" as had been claimed.

Edited November 22, 2017 by max2u

[Basil B]

7 hours ago, kotsak said:

There was a kid in China who sold one so he can get an iPhone but who knows how much the person who needed it paid for it..

Yes, China had a thriving market sell human kidney's, that was until it was found out they had been selling pigs kidney's... 

[max2u]

1 hour ago, Basil B said:

Yes, China had a thriving market sell human kidney's, that was until it was found out they had been selling pigs kidney's... 

 

So, Chinese selling >kidneys< were ahead of the curve in sales, without being ahead of the curve in xplant fails 

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/scientists-grow-bullish-pig-human-transplants

 

 . . noted is that pig heart valves have gone into people for many years, and much human organ repair and replacement developmental work is performed using pigs . .