No Irish border deal before EU trade agreement - British minister

[Bluespunk]

Just now, steve187 said:

failing to observe the result of the vote is dictatorship

Who's not observing it?

 

Calling for another vote is always an option under democracy.

 

I'm not saying ignore the vote, but I fail to see why having another is dictatorship.

[brewsterbudgen]

They had a vote on it it and they can't have another. Because democracy means never getting to say you're sorry.

I seem to remember there being a vote in 1973 about Europe. But we had (regrettably in my opinion) another in 2016!

 

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[smedly]

20 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

I seem to remember there being a vote in 1973 about Europe. But we had (regrettably in my opinion) another in 2016!

 

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and weirdly you have actually defeated your argument by even mentioning the 1973 vote, because what we voted for in 1973 is not even close to what we ended up with in 2016 ....................... exactly why we are leaving

 

As I said in an earlier post on this thread, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the EEC or common market as it was known but what it evolved into is entirely different not to mention the direction it was heading, the British voted that they didn't want that

Edited November 27, 2017 by smedly

[brewsterbudgen]

7 minutes ago, smedly said:

and weirdly you have actually defeated your argument by even mentioning the 1973 vote, because what we voted for in 1973 is not even close to what we ended up with in 2016 ....................... exactly why we are leaving

 

As I said in an earlier post on this thread, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the EEC or common market as it was known but what it evolved into is entirely different not to mention the direction it was heading, the British voted that they didn't want that

And same argument could be made now; leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union was not included in the referendum question.  Let's have another vote on the deal reached.  Of course, Brexiters don't want that, as they know what the result would be!

[dick dasterdly]

31 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I have a solution, but the english and the unionists won't like it...

 

29 minutes ago, steve187 said:

go on

 

28 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Nope, it would completely derail this topic... 

In which case your first post (quoted above) was derailing this topic - but you're now shy to elaborate for some reason....

[Bluespunk]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

In which case your first post (quoted above) was derailing this topic - but you're now shy to elaborate for some reason....

I think we all know the reason and my initial post was in response to another.

 

Just offering a less anglo-centric view of solutions to the border issue...

Edited November 27, 2017 by Bluespunk

[AGareth2]

ROI could always rejoin the Union

[dick dasterdly]

16 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

In which case your first post (quoted above) was derailing this topic - but you're now shy to elaborate for some reason....

 

14 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I think we all know the reason and my initial post was in response to another.

 

Just offering a less anglo-centric view of solutions to the border issue...

Sadly (I'll be the first to admit that I frequently miss the point of some posts) -  I don't know "the reason" why you won't explain your solution, so would appreciate it if you would elaborate.

[Bluespunk]

17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Sadly (I'll be the first to admit that I frequently miss the point of some posts) -  I don't know "the reason" why you won't explain your solution, so would appreciate it if you would elaborate.

PM me.

[GanDoonToonPet]

5 hours ago, steve187 said:

how can northern island stay in the CU, its part of great Britain and as such will be out of the EU, there has to be a  border control, otherwise we would have no control over any EU citizen or anyone with a schengen visa from walking in, as northern island is in the common travel area they could then travel onto England & Scotland as well as others.

The CU only allows free movement of goods, not services, people or capital. Turkey is part of the CU but the UK hasn't been swamped by Turks...

[smedly]

9 minutes ago, GanDoonToonPet said:

The CU only allows free movement of goods, not services, people or capital. Turkey is part of the CU but the UK hasn't been swamped by Turks...

is Turkey free to trade with the rest of the world ?  if so then they are not part of the same arrangement the UK or any other EU state has

 

You see everyone has put a label on this so called "customs union", what the UK has after brexit maybe similar and you could even label it as a customs union between the UK and the EU but is it the same as exists right now........no it isn't , it will be a Customs Union exclusive to the UK and EU needs after brexit 

[dunroaming]

6 hours ago, steve187 said:

how can northern island stay in the CU, its part of great Britain and as such will be out of the EU, there has to be a  border control, otherwise we would have no control over any EU citizen or anyone with a schengen visa from walking in, as northern island is in the common travel area they could then travel onto England & Scotland as well as others.

Quite, so does the UK go against the Good Friday agreement, something they have pledged not to do?  Just to add to the mess, the DUP are propping up the Conservatives in the house and Ireland (an EU member) have said they would go against anything that didn't meet their border criteria. 

[dunroaming]

2 hours ago, smedly said:

and weirdly you have actually defeated your argument by even mentioning the 1973 vote, because what we voted for in 1973 is not even close to what we ended up with in 2016

Nothing anyone voted for in 1973 was the same in 2016.  Everything in every country moves on.  It is called progress.  I do think that the EU needs an overhaul and some of the policies need to be updated to the 21st century.  But the only way to achieve that is from within.  

 

It is possible to leave the EU with a positive outcome but not with these clowns trying to negotiate.  I read yesterday (Sunday Times under the title "Brexit Divorce Bill To Be Kept Secret") that May will pay more than the 40 billion but will not release the figure agreed. If true then totally inacceptable in my view.  The public should be told.  It is our money they are negotiating away!

[NeoDinosaw]

8 hours ago, edwinchester said:

Yes there was a vote and the majority voted to leave. I get and accept that.

What is so depressing is that the politicians in charge seemingly had no idea of the consequences and no idea how to implement the exit process.

Still, they won't be the ones hardest hit by the mess as they will still have their jobs and at the end of the day as usual it will be Joe Public bearing the brunt.

We had a vote and a very small majority (including myself) chose to leave, on the promise that we would save 350,000,000 GBP each week to give to the NHS.

This turns out to have been a bare-faced lie propogated by the bumbling blond clown (Boris) and his friends.

Each week (almost daily) we see that the Brexiteers have no idea what they are doing, and have no grip on the facts. The divorce bill is based on pie-in the-sky dreaming. What have those thousands of extra civil servants been doing. The level of incompetence shown by Mrs May defies belief.

It is clear that the UK would be much better off staying in the EU now.

[GanDoonToonPet]

3 hours ago, smedly said:

is Turkey free to trade with the rest of the world ?  if so then they are not part of the same arrangement the UK or any other EU state has

 

You see everyone has put a label on this so called "customs union", what the UK has after brexit maybe similar and you could even label it as a customs union between the UK and the EU but is it the same as exists right now........no it isn't , it will be a Customs Union exclusive to the UK and EU needs after brexit 

Turkey is not 'free' to trade with the rest of the world as it is a member of the EUCU. It must impose tariffs on goods imported from non-EU states, a policy designed to protect EU members' agricultural & fisheries industries.

 

There is no 'soft' or 'hard' border between Ireland & NI after brexit, there is a border or there is not. The only model that could work is the Swiss model whereby, through a series of bilateral agreements, the four freedoms are signed up to but in practice freedom of movement of people is severely restricted; I doubt the EU will agree to that!

 

 

[AGareth2]

5 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

I have a solution, but the english and the unionists won't like it...

then it is not practical

[dunroaming]

11 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

then it is not practical

Hard to see what is happening now is "practical".  Hard to see anything in this brexit fiasco that isn't destructive.

[Bluespunk]

24 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

then it is not practical

Nonetheless

[brewsterbudgen]

Its okay. Forget about this Brexit rubbish.
 
PRINCE HARRY TO MARRY MEGHAN.
 
 
Reckon she'll have problems getting an immigration visa ?
 
 
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No. Harry can easily meet the financial requirements for a Settlement visa.

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[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

PM me.

My wife did that to me the other day; not recommended. Better run for the hills.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, GanDoonToonPet said:

Turkey is not 'free' to trade with the rest of the world as it is a member of the EUCU. It must impose tariffs on goods imported from non-EU states, a policy designed to protect EU members' agricultural & fisheries industries.

 

There is no 'soft' or 'hard' border between Ireland & NI after brexit, there is a border or there is not. The only model that could work is the Swiss model whereby, through a series of bilateral agreements, the four freedoms are signed up to but in practice freedom of movement of people is severely restricted; I doubt the EU will agree to that!

 

 

Not with current team

 

With an all Yorkshire 1st 19 anything is possible ?

[Grouse]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/north-south-united-ireland-reunification-referendum-dup-support-brexit-border-a8077941.html

 

This sounds right to me. Equitable and eminently sensible.

[brewsterbudgen]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/north-south-united-ireland-reunification-referendum-dup-support-brexit-border-a8077941.html
 
This sounds right to me. Equitable and eminently sensible.

Not much that is good is likely to come from Brexit. A united Ireland would be about as good as it could get.

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[AGareth2]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

Nonetheless

so what is your solution?

nonetheless?

that is meaningless!

[Bluespunk]

4 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

so what is your solution?

nonetheless?

that is meaningless!

I've already said I won't discuss here. Wrong thread.

 

My nonetheless was in response to your post.

 

Read yours,

 

Read mine,

 

Engage thinking facilities.

 

However on reflection [having engaged with you in past] let me clarify and simplify for you.

 

''Nonetheless'', simply means there is another solution.

 

Hope that is clear enough for you.

 

Just in case though, let me add...

 

The english and unionists are not the only views that count when Ireland is being talked of in a thread...

 

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Bluespunk

[AGareth2]

NI is part of the UK

[brewsterbudgen]

an opinion held by the majority in NI

I doubt the majority of UK citizens would hold the same opinion.

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[taipeir]

Yes, that is true, that is the view of many in the north of Ireland. 

Not even a majority in the province of Ulster.Gerrymandered state.

 

Look up the origin of the word gerrymandered. Its pretty interesting.

 

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/22946/why-does-northern-ireland-not-include-the-counties-donegal-monaghan-and-cavan

 

 

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[thaibry]

The UK should walk away and tell the southern Irish that it is up to them to build a border fence and that Irish citizens will no longer have free access to the UK and that their right to vote in UK elections will cease on the day the UK leaves.

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[dunroaming]

2 minutes ago, thaibry said:

The UK should walk away and tell the southern Irish that it is up to them to build a border fence and that Irish citizens will no longer have free access to the UK and that their right to vote in UK elections will cease on the day the UK leaves.

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Right on the money as usual   . Oh! to live in your world