High-speed railway between China and Thailand to be used for cargo, not passengers?

[Netease]

7 hours ago, Dave67 said:

Just reading the article in full, highly likely it the railway was going to be freight only from the first concept. The high speed passenger train nonsense was just used to sell it to the public when in fact it will only benefit companies to ship goods from China to Thailand and back

I think there would be a lot of empty trains going back to China

[Dave67]

Just now, Netease said:

I think there would be a lot of empty trains going back to China

Som Tam and Pad Krapo

[chainarong]

Well stop calling it high speed,  frieght traffic are governed by insurance companies,  over 110 kph they get worried, the cost ,  track  and electrical maintenence and the countries concerned that this dream will pass through ,  raises serious issues of proper management ......................

[ratcatcher]

4 minutes ago, Netease said:

I think there would be a lot of empty trains going back to China

In the United States, there are huge numbers of empty 20' & 40' containers on westbound trains. Containers originating in China, loaded, are shipped trans-Pacific, but many return empty as there's an imbalance of trade between the two

[sawadee1947]

10 hours ago, webfact said:

Thai government are now reportedly pushing for the railway to be used for cargo.

maybe for soldiers....? Tanks? Artillery? Submarines???? 5555

[JAG]

Yep the Chinese in Africa have an assurance of debt re- payment by using Africa's Gold and Diamond diamond resources in case of default. Sounds familiar with the Goldmine taken back from the Aussie company with a section 44 for " Local health reasons". Probably more like a default if Thailand does not pay back the debt to China

An interesting suggestion, and I think quite possible. A productive gold mine would, either on its own or as a portfolio of other lucrative businesses, almost certainly be useful as collateral for financing this railway.
Of course the international economic repercussions in the event of the mine being handed to the Chinese would be huge, possibly enough to virtually destroy any further international investment, but this bunch don't really think about consequences, and hey, our Chinese pals will help us out...

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[JAS21]

Well that will keep the death toll down ...

[JAG]

In the United States, there are huge numbers of empty 20' & 40' containers on westbound trains. Containers originating in China, loaded, are shipped trans-Pacific, but many return empty as there's an imbalance of trade between the two

I was thinking the same after reading your link about the China to London service.
Presumably their must be "empties" going back east?

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[Ricardo]

2 hours ago, Netease said:

I think there would be a lot of empty trains going back to China

In another thread it was suggested that there might well be significant freight from the Thai-ports to Laos ?

 

And one hopes that low-cost manufactures from the Eastern seaboard might be competitive, also there's always bulk-rice, or other Thai agricultural-exports heading North to China ?

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

11 hours ago, Dave67 said:

Due the weight axel load and wheel profile of freight trains they are not compatible with High speed railway tracks, moderate speed 180kph is feasible but rail wear will be far more than passenger only

If I remember correctly this will be a low fast speed system, at 250 kph maximum. This will bring your speed of 180 kph in play depending on the cargo. If it is low weight high value products there is no problem. I however think they are grasping at straws to justify the rail system. Maybe it can explain people flashing watches that costs millions. 

[wakeupplease]

Fast Freight the country will be awash with fake copy goods, mind you it will give the bib something to do, but the the Chinese will get pissed off their goods ain't getting to the customers. So lots of corruption to fill pockets keep it up, ideas for the elite by the elite, but that is what the country is all about

[ChouDoufu]

9 hours ago, owl sees all said:

How does the train get across the Mekong? A new bridge!?

endless stretches of chinese high-speed rail are elevated.

won't even notice the mekong.

 

 

[Sid Celery]

15 hours ago, mfd101 said:

You might think that, in a well-planned project, someone might have considered the PURPOSE of the project - "What are we trying to achieve here?" - BEFORE they proceeded to allocate funds, sign contracts etc ...

Don't know where you would have got that from, this is Thailand for God's sake. they don't really do thinking.

 

And they're convinced they know best. Something about leading the world...

Edited December 8, 2017 by Sid Celery

[Ricardo]

This is very much a Chinese project, the Thais are only really involved because it runs partly across their territory, and also because they feel for some reason that they need to finance their section of China's Belt & Road Initiative.

 

The Chinese must have some good salesmen, or there may be other factors in-play.

 

But if it does happen, as now looks increasingly-likely, then it makes sense to get whatever peripheral-benefits there may be, for the country.

[Yme]

22 hours ago, Dave67 said:

Just reading the article in full, highly likely it the railway was going to be freight only from the first concept. The high speed passenger train nonsense was just used to sell it to the public when in fact it will only benefit companies to ship goods from China to Thailand and back

That's all it was ever going to be. It's Bangkok Post who first started dragging out bullet train images. There's no money to be made from passengers despite all the BS figures trotted out from time to time.

[Yme]

16 hours ago, Ricardo said:

 

Given that the SRT is already dualling/upgrading much of its metre-gauge line down to Padang Besar, with the latest contract (Hua Hin to Prachuap) awarded to Ital-Thai a few months ago, the transfer-point for containers is more likely IMO to be the new freight-yards near the (currently under-construction) new Ban Sue (Bangkok) main-terminal (which is planned to  replace Hualumpong), where the proposed Khorat-Bangkok route will terminate.

 

They can then move, on the existing SRT meter-gauge network, South or up to Chiang Mai or even back up to those places in the North-East where the new line doesn't go.  That makes good commercial sense to me.

 

One other error in that (frankly awfully ignorant & misleading) article, only the 3km-test-track and the Khorat-Bangkok sections have yet got even close to starting, there remain the Khorat-border section & the line down to Laem Chabang & Maptaphut, still to be agreed or financed.

A whole bunch of people getting excited and not properly understanding what they are writing (media) and others not understanding what they are reading, unlike you.

As you correctly point out, only the 3km test track has been financed. The junta at work with smoke and mirrors again.

[Dave67]

20 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

This is very much a Chinese project, the Thais are only really involved because it runs partly across their territory, and also because they feel for some reason that they need to finance their section of China's Belt & Road Initiative.

 

The Chinese must have some good salesmen, or there may be other factors in-play.

 

But if it does happen, as now looks increasingly-likely, then it makes sense to get whatever peripheral-benefits there may be, for the country.

Yes good point, I suppose the question would be where will a cargo train stop. Thailand may well become like Laos and train passes through Thailand to Laem Chabang (Enlighten me if there somewhere else) Nonstop

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave67]

20 minutes ago, Yme said:

A whole bunch of people getting excited and not properly understanding what they are writing (media) and others not understanding what they are reading, unlike you.

As you correctly point out, only the 3km test track has been financed. The junta at work with smoke and mirrors again.

 In some cases, like this one, a small test track is built after the start of construction due to the companies not mobilising until construction starts. There will something in the contract stating a minimum Lenght of Formation to handover from Civils to Track so I doubt we'll see a test track soon. A Test Track is just for dignitaries to visit without getting mud on their shoes, You cant test anything on 3k of Track and it's a bit late to test if they can build a track or not. Haha

Edited December 9, 2017 by Dave67

[Ricardo]

16 minutes ago, Dave67 said:

Yes good point, I suppose the question would be where will a cargo train stop. Thailand may well become like Laos and train passes through Thailand to Laem Chabang (Enlighten me if there somewhere else) Nonstop

 

Yes, that seems sensible, for everything going for onward-shipping, Laem Chabang being a MAJOR container-port.

 

With the stuff for trans-shipment onto metre-gauge, to Malaysia/Singapore/rest-of-Thailand on the SRT perhaps to the freight-yard near Ban-Sue ?  I don't really see why they'd bother to send it down to Singapore, before loading it on a ship now that we have Laem Chabang, the original imperial-era plan has evolved over-the-decades ? 

 

And I don't see why they'd want to bother to stop & offload a bit of freight between the border & Bangkok, simpler to put it onto the SRT-system there, and send it back up to its North-East destination (if going there) on the existing-system ?  KISS-principle applies !  I learned, when working for TNT many moons ago, that the origin-to-destination  routing for a shipment often goes via a couple of other hubs, it simply makes commercial sense !

 

Would you agree that whole-train operations would likely be the way the Chinese would want to run things ?  I'd say probably just the two main destinations for cargo, based on what we've currently seen/heard.  Which can change.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Ricardo

[JAG]

Mate, I've been it the railway game for 30 years, you carry on in your fantasy world, "overlapping lines" never heard that one before

I suggest what he meant was that metre gauge and standard gauge sidings should be laid alongside each other, and for the containers to be"cross-decked".

 

That arrangement has been used at points where there is a "break of gauge", for a very long time, certainly more than thirty years!

 

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[Dave67]

Just now, JAG said:

I suggest what he meant was that metre gauge and standard gauge sidings should be laid alongside each other, and for the containers to be"cross-decked".

That arrangement has been used at points where there is a "break of gauge", for a very long time, certainly very considerably thirty years!

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Yeah, agree if thats what he meant. Problem being at Pedang Basar there are only 2 tracks that run through the border, with Villages on either side. There is depot on the Malaysia side but nothing that could accommodate what is proposed. We worked 3k into Thailand for signaling reasons and nothing there where you could build such a large container base.Unfortunately, Thailand would not be ready for the complex signaling that would involve

[Ricardo]

2 minutes ago, JAG said:

I suggest what he meant was that metre gauge and standard gauge sidings should be laid alongside each other, and for the containers to be"cross-decked".

That arrangement has been used at points where there is a "break of gauge", for a very long time, certainly very considerably thirty years!

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AFAIK nobody has any (announced) plans to run standard-gauge South from Bangkok, or anywhere near the Malaysian-border ?  The misnamed 'high-speed' line ends at Bangkok & the Eastern Seaboard.

 

Whereas the Malaysian-line has been upgraded/dualled (see Dave's comments & first-hand experience), and the Thai-line South-of-Bangkok about half-done now, so it seems likely that the interchange should be near Bangkok, where it can also feed containers into the rest of the SRT meter-gauge network too ?  Maximum bang for the buck !

 

Interestingly various Transport-Ministers over-the-years have also been promoting various regional container-cargo hubs, linking to/from Laem Chabang, as a means of getting traffic off the roads.

 

The Laem Chabang-Chachoensao line was a top-priority for SRT-dualling in recent years, it's now complete, even before the link from China began to look more likely.  That might still perform a useful secondary role, and not be wasted-investment.

[Dave67]

24 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

 

Yes, that seems sensible, for everything going for onward-shipping, Laem Chabang being a MAJOR container-port.

 

With the stuff for trans-shipment onto metre-gauge, to Malaysia/Singapore/rest-of-Thailand on the SRT perhaps to the freight-yard near Ban-Sue ?  I don't really see why they'd bother to send it down to Singapore, before loading it on a ship now that we have Laem Chabang, the original imperial-era plan has evolved over-the-decades ? 

 

And I don't see why they'd want to bother to stop & offload a bit of freight between the border & Bangkok, simpler to put it onto the SRT-system there, and send it back up to its North-East destination (if going there) on the existing-system ?  KISS-principle applies !  I learned, when working for TNT many moons ago, that the origin-to-destination  routing for a shipment often goes via a couple of other hubs, it simply makes commercial sense !

 

Would you agree that whole-train operations would likely be the way the Chinese would want to run things ?  I'd say probably just the two main destinations for cargo, based on what we've currently seen/heard.  Which can change.

Yes that makes sense, It won't be built in any fashion to accommodate Thailand. The only bright side for Thailand would be a bigger port but probably built by Myanmarese anyway. I  didn't look at the exact distance but getting something down to a port of the Gulf of Thailand by Train and then onto a ship and out into the Ocean I would assume is far quicker than by ship from China

Edited December 9, 2017 by Dave67

[Ricardo]

10 minutes ago, Dave67 said:

Yes that makes sense, It won't be built in any fashion to accommodate Thailand. The only bright side for Thailand would be a bigger port but probably built by Myanmarese anyway. I  didn't look at the exact distance but getting something down to a port of the Gulf of Thailand by Train and then onto a ship and out into the Ocean I would assume is far quicker than by ship from China

 

A few years ago I read an interesting book called  "The Box", about the development of containerised-freight, apparently a decade-or-so ago Laem Chabang was already one of the top-20 container-ports in the World !

 

And I believe the genesis of the broader Chinese transport-strategy goes back to the time, when their ports were struggling to cope with the massive wave of exports, so an extra option was always welcome !  Plus it advances their very-long-term strategy for S.E.Asia, as others already pointed out, empire-builders like railways !

[Dave67]

9 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

 

A few years ago I read an interesting book called  "The Box", about the development of containerised-freight, apparently a decade-or-so ago Laem Chabang was already one of the top-20 container-ports in the World !

 

And I believe the genesis of the broader Chinese transport-strategy goes back to the time, when their ports were struggling to cope with the massive wave of exports, so an extra option was always welcome !  Plus it advances their very-long-term strategy for S.E.Asia, as others already pointed out, empire-builders like railways !

Very true the Romans were roads the British Railways.

 

Example Below Malaysia  Victoria Railway Bridge Perak river completed 1907 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Dave67

[zydeco]

So, in effect, China has just grabbed a permanent right of way for their trains through Thai property? Essentially, China just gobbled up a huge piece of Thailand running from the Lao border to the sea?

[Dave67]

2 minutes ago, zydeco said:

So, in effect, China has just grabbed a permanent right of way for their trains through Thai property? Essentially, China just gobbled up a huge piece of Thailand running from the Lao border to the sea?

Looks like that if its freight only unless Thailand has something to send back the other way I'm not sure what Thailand would/does export to China

[Ricardo]

4 minutes ago, zydeco said:

So, in effect, China has just grabbed a permanent right of way for their trains through Thai property? Essentially, China just gobbled up a huge piece of Thailand running from the Lao border to the sea?

 

Were you previously a diplomat ?

 

1.  It hasn't actually happened yet, and might never

2.  There are several peripheral economic-benefits for Thailand

3.  I'm not sure that the land-rights can pass to foreigners, Chinese or farang

 

 

[zydeco]

4 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

Were you previously a diplomat ?

No, but I played one on TV.

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, Dave67 said:

Mate, I've been it the railway game for 30 years, you carry on in your fantasy world, "overlapping lines" never heard that one before

Given you thought I was referring to truck transfer perhaps your mind is still operating in the 80s.

Just because overlapping lines never occurred to you does not mean it's not viable.

I've met people in positions of some authority in organisations that are so rigid in their thinking that they are incapable of "looking outside the box", to the detriment of the organisations they work for, but that is unfortunately the curse of bureaucracy.

No doubt you are well acquainted with Beeching and what he did to Britain's rail network. He is one that couldn't think outside his own inadequacies.