Trump dangles Middle East peace plan to limit Jerusalem outcry

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Briggsy said:

http://time.com/4629308/donald-trump-business-deals-world-map/

 

And then you can add in Kushner's interests and those of Trump's major donors.

 

I don't know why you have included the UAE in your post The occupied Palestinian territories and the UAE are a very long distance apart both geographically and politically. Do you think all Arabs are a homogenous mass?

 

Trump does not have major business interests in Israel, as opposed to the incorrect claim made. That Kushner does (to a degree) and that some of Trump's donors may, is not quite the same thing.

 

The reference to the UAE was with regard to Trump's actual investment there. If anything Trump, Kushner and unnamed donors could promote their business interests better by courting the Arab/Muslim world.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Sir Swagman said:

Regardless of the colour of the state, rouge normally reserved for more the socialist types, parts of Jerusalem at least came under Israeli control as a result of war action. Israel itself was established as a result of the Balfour Declaration (an aside here is that Lord Balfour is the reason for the expression 'Bob's your uncle') No consultation with occupants of the area was carried out and the colonizer attitude of decreeing from afar was seen as good enough. Trump's 'let's piss off one of the parties involved and then tell them how peace is going to work' has about as much chance of success (well less really) as all other attempts to broker a deal. Otherwise he is acting exactly as one did dealing with 'inferior types' (in his mind perhaps) a century or more ago. Onya Don.......

 

Yeah, should have been rogue, of course, and Israel is not that, regardless.

While Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem is not recognized internationally (and Trump's statement is not, in fact, such a recognition as well), Israel's existence widely is - whether you like to acknowledge it or not, and whether you wish to pursue pseudo-historical accounts.

[Srikcir]

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

Trump does not have major business interests in Israel

At least none that have come to completion.

See Trump's $300 million Ramat Gan tower plans.

Property purchased in 2006.

http://www.worldclasscondohotels.com/articles/israel.htm

"... a luxury hotel in Netanya and a golf course in Ashkelon are only some of the Israeli projects that were supposed to bear the US president-elect’s name. Although they all remained on paper, the Trumps are not giving up. We are very interested in Israel,’ says Trump’s daughter Ivanka, promising to keep pursuing real estate deals in the Jewish state." (Nov. 2016)

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4879842,00.html

[dexterm]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Friedman wasn't mentioned in the post I replied to, and not much argument there. With regard to Kushner and Greenblatt, I do realize that as far as you are concerned anyone having anything to do with the illegal Israeli settlements is a "radical Zionist", but that doesn't actually make it so. As for all appointments being problematic, rather obvious - and was extensively commented about. That's not quite the same thing, though.

Don't be utterly obtuse.

You suggest that the fact that his son in law Kushner finances illegal colonies, exclusively the home of fanatical Zionists..no Palestinians allowed there except to build them, in the occupied West Bank, does not make him also a radical Zionist. Here folks you see the Zionist propaganda machine at work, calling black white.

 

And that Greenblatt who is also, in the OP peace plan, supposed to be negotiating the future of the same colonies on illegally occupied land announced “The two sides are going to have to decide how to deal with that region, but it’s certainly not Mr Trump’s view that settlement activity should be condemned and that it’s an obstacle for peace – because it is not the obstacle for peace.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/24/jason-greenblatt-international-negotiations-trump-administration

 

Imagine if an American president appointed two American-Islamist Hamas sympathisers to run US Israel policy.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Srikcir said:

At least none that have come to completion.

See Trump's $300 million Ramat Gan tower plans.

Property purchased in 2006.

http://www.worldclasscondohotels.com/articles/israel.htm

"... a luxury hotel in Netanya and a golf course in Ashkelon are only some of the Israeli projects that were supposed to bear the US president-elect’s name. Although they all remained on paper, the Trumps are not giving up. We are very interested in Israel,’ says Trump’s daughter Ivanka, promising to keep pursuing real estate deals in the Jewish state." (Nov. 2016)

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4879842,00.html

 

So to put it in other words, no current business interests, and daughter saying whatever. Great. Seems like his business interests in other ME countries are somewhat more tangible. And to remind, the original post alleged that Trump's does have such interests and tied them supposed interests with making the statement. Rather convulsed reasoning there, never mind the facts.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Morch

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

Don't be utterly obtuse.

You suggest that the fact that his son in law Kushner finances illegal colonies, exclusively the home of fanatical Zionists..no Palestinians allowed there except to build them, in the occupied West Bank, does not make him also a radical Zionist. Here folks you see the Zionist propaganda machine at work, calling black white.

 

And that Greenblatt who is also, in the OP peace plan, supposed to be negotiating the future of the same colonies on illegally occupied land announced “The two sides are going to have to decide how to deal with that region, but it’s certainly not Mr Trump’s view that settlement activity should be condemned and that it’s an obstacle for peace – because it is not the obstacle for peace.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/24/jason-greenblatt-international-negotiations-trump-administration

 

Imagine if an American president appointed two American-Islamist Hamas sympathisers to run US Israel policy.

 

Yes, I don't think that makes him quite a "radical Zionist" in the way you try to portray. But then, I'm not really expecting anything balanced or objective from you on that score. No idea which crowd you imagine to be addressing, seems like a trending fantasy with some posters.

 

As you are not into making distinctions or acknowledging shades it would probably be lost on you, that the wholesale labeling doesn't explain the two being involved in negotiations, or presenting the Israeli side with things which weren't to its liking as well. As far as I am aware, Greenblatt at least, managed to earn some measure of trust from officials on both sides. Doubt that would happen if your label was relevant.

 

As for your ongoing nonsense - there was nothing said about either being a good choice for the role, quite the opposite.

[dexterm]

57 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yes, I don't think that makes him quite a "radical Zionist" in the way you try to portray. But then, I'm not really expecting anything balanced or objective from you on that score. No idea which crowd you imagine to be addressing, seems like a trending fantasy with some posters.

 

As you are not into making distinctions or acknowledging shades it would probably be lost on you, that the wholesale labeling doesn't explain the two being involved in negotiations, or presenting the Israeli side with things which weren't to its liking as well. As far as I am aware, Greenblatt at least, managed to earn some measure of trust from officials on both sides. Doubt that would happen if your label was relevant.

 

As for your ongoing nonsense - there was nothing said about either being a good choice for the role, quite the opposite.

>>Yes, I don't think that makes him quite a "radical Zionist" in the way you try to portray.
..Think what you like. Most sane people would conclude that to pay to build houses on stolen private Palestinian land then offer them heavily discounted to illegal fanatical colonists might just indicate a tad of sympathy to the new tenant fanatics.

 

Unless Kuchner is suffering from severe schizophrenia I'd say it disqualifies him from negotiating a peace agreement in which said illegal colonies are one of the main points of contention.

Edited December 9, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

1 minute ago, dexterm said:

>>Yes, I don't think that makes him quite a "radical Zionist" in the way you try to portray.
..Think what you like. Most sane people would concude that to pay to build houses on stolen private Palestinian land then offer them free to illegal fanatical colonists might just indicate a tad of sympathy to the new tenant fanatics.

 

Unless Kuchner is suffering from severe schizophrenia I'd say it disqualifies him from negotiating a peace agreement in which said illegal colonies are one of the main points of contention.

 

I doubt you're an authority when it comes to objectiveness, as self attested on a parallel topic. And probably not a good idea getting into the issue of "sane". Just saying.

 

Sympathy and even support from afar do not necessarily earn someone the label of a "radical". Unless mistaken, that was a position you yourself opined (or agreed with) in connection with support for extreme Islamic organizations.

 

Unless you wish to harp on this several more times, I think we can agree that Kushner and even Greenblatt are bad choices. Never mind Friedman.

[dexterm]

21 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I doubt you're an authority when it comes to objectiveness, as self attested on a parallel topic. And probably not a good idea getting into the issue of "sane". Just saying.

 

Sympathy and even support from afar do not necessarily earn someone the label of a "radical". Unless mistaken, that was a position you yourself opined (or agreed with) in connection with support for extreme Islamic organizations.

 

Unless you wish to harp on this several more times, I think we can agree that Kushner and even Greenblatt aIn your zeal to besmirch me, you will invariably trip yourself up trying to appear neutral.

 

sorry edit problem

Edited December 9, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>I doubt you're an authority when it comes to objectiveness
.."I doubt ...objectivity" are self contradictory. Means you also agree that there is objectivity in my posts.
Don't  try to obfuscate. Speak plainer English. You will invariably trip yourself up trying to appear neutral.

 

I agree with you:  Kushner, Greenblatt and Friedman are extremely poor choices as advisors/negotiators in any ultimate deal Israel/Palestinian peace plan.

 

 

 

[Redline]

19 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Do tell.

Time will talk

[Morch]

9 hours ago, Redline said:

Time will talk

 

I'll take that as a no, then.

[selftaopath]

On 12/8/2017 at 9:01 AM, Briggsy said:

The secret peace plan without any details! What a joke this guy is. Save it for reality tv. Trump has business interests in Israel. That is his only priority.

And it wouldn't surprise me if Trump got a nice bribe/ gift for his efforts. This corrupt sleazeball is all about the money. He disgusts me to no end. I hope he get's what he deserves and soon. 

 

[Kiwiken]

The sad now is the United States is no longer a Broker of Peace. You cannot be unbiased when you have stated unwavering support for One side of the discussion.

[mrwebb8825]

Basically, many parts of the Old Testament in the Bible have been and still are being carried out in this part of the world. I have been doing so brushing up on the history of the region and have found the Palestinians  have no claim to Jerusalem what so ever. The capture of East Jerusalem in the 6-day war (1967) was from the Jordanians. They also captured  The West Bank from the Jordanians, The Gaza Strip and The Sinai Peninsula from Egypt and The Golan Heights from Syria.

Previous to this, the Israelis have kicked the butts of the Egyptians, the Jordanians, the Arabs and the Syrians going back to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. No wonder all these people are opposed to Israel's claim. 

It's about time we have a leader that has the balls to do the right thing. By recognizing Jerusalem as their capital he has made the 1st move towards peace since the Oslo Accords resulting in the recognition by the PLO of the State of Israel and the recognition by Israel of the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and as a partner in negotiations. The Oslo Accords, however, did not create a Palestinian state.

Will be very curious to see where this goes now.

[dexterm]

32 minutes ago, mrwebb8825 said:

Basically, many parts of the Old Testament in the Bible have been and still are being carried out in this part of the world. I have been doing so brushing up on the history of the region and have found the Palestinians  have no claim to Jerusalem what so ever. The capture of East Jerusalem in the 6-day war (1967) was from the Jordanians. They also captured  The West Bank from the Jordanians, The Gaza Strip and The Sinai Peninsula from Egypt and The Golan Heights from Syria.

Previous to this, the Israelis have kicked the butts of the Egyptians, the Jordanians, the Arabs and the Syrians going back to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. No wonder all these people are opposed to Israel's claim. 

It's about time we have a leader that has the balls to do the right thing. By recognizing Jerusalem as their capital he has made the 1st move towards peace since the Oslo Accords resulting in the recognition by the PLO of the State of Israel and the recognition by Israel of the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and as a partner in negotiations. The Oslo Accords, however, did not create a Palestinian state.

Will be very curious to see where this goes now.

>>Palestinians  have no claim to Jerusalem what so ever.

 

..you seem to have overlooked one tiny itty bitty fact. Palestinian Muslims and Christians have been living there as the majority for millenia.

 

Suggest you do a bit more research. Start maybe with the Israeli Jewish  digital reference for some facts.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/population-of-israel-palestine-1553-present

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>Palestinians  have no claim to Jerusalem what so ever.

 

..you seem to have overlooked one tiny itty bitty fact. Palestinian Muslims and Christians have been living there as the majority for millenia.

 

Suggest you do a bit more research. Start maybe with the Israeli Jewish  digital reference for some facts.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/population-of-israel-palestine-1553-present

 

The poster you replied to ignored certain details, you ignore certain details. Each one excluding whatever bits don't fit into respective points of view. There is no outcome in which one side's (and these aren't quite the same as posters' versions anyway) arguments will fully prevail or win the day.

[mrwebb8825]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

There is no outcome in which one side's (and these aren't quite the same as posters' versions anyway) arguments will fully prevail or win the day.

I'm just saying with the biblical reference that persecution of the Jews in history seems to merit out the Bible's version.

As for the other information I posted (referenced wiki) it looks suspiciously like a middle eastern conspiracy by the people who tried brute force and war to beat Israel and lost, then taking it to others like the EU and the UN, etc. and promising favors for support.

As for the population link posted above, religion is NOT nationality and therefor is a misrepresentation of truth. By those standards, England would be considered a Muslim country. (well, nearly)

[Morch]

Just now, mrwebb8825 said:

I'm just saying with the biblical reference that persecution of the Jews in history seems to merit out the Bible's version.

As for the other information I posted (referenced wiki) it looks suspiciously like a middle eastern conspiracy by the people who tried brute force and war to beat Israel and lost, then taking it to others like the EU and the UN, etc. and promising favors for support.

As for the population link posted above, religion is NOT nationality and therefor is a misrepresentation of truth. By those standards, England would be considered a Muslim country. (well, nearly)

 

As said, you focus on them bits which favor one side's version (or more accurately, a version endorsed by some on that side, things aren't usually as uniform). Pseudo theological or historical "debates" are usually futile, and rarely achieve an agreement or succeed in making people on the other side accept the point of view suggested.

 

Spins and one-sided accounts aren't helpful, especially when based on less than solid facts, or a partial presentation of facts. Whether people like to accept it or not, the Palestinians do have a claim for Jerusalem, or rather, at least to part of it. This does not negate Israel's claim. Neither is rendered void because of the other.

 

Ignore it all you like, even today Palestinians represent about 40% of the greater Jerusalem area. That most are Muslim is another fact. What does this have to do with bogus claims about the UK I've no idea.