Turkey says world must recognise East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>Russia and the PRC do not recognize it as well...regardless of your trying to make it about Israel and the USA.
...precisely. That does not lend legitimacy to USA and Israel's boycott of the ICC, just the opposite...they too have a lot to hide.

 

>>The EU does not support your extreme views
.... My views are not extreme. Europeans are well aware of Israel's illegal occupation. The EU already insists on separate labelling of goods from illegal West  Bank colonies.

 

The more countries that recognize Palestine as a state the better. We have come a long way from Golda Meir's:  "There were no such thing as Palestinians." The Palestinian flag now flies outside the UN building.

 

Small increments, but peaceful progress.

 

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." (Martin Luther King, Jr)

 

 

 

Precisely how? Precisely what? First you try to imply Israel and USA are somehow "special" about not recognizing the ICC, now go for a mumbo jumbo comment.

 

Your views are extreme, and the EU's positions are not your own. There is actually quite a gap between them, both in substance and style. The EU does not engage in constant one-sided vehement vitriol or demonetization. The standard issue co-opting attempt failed, as usual.

 

Instead of dodging questions, how about addressing them: how does the OP reflect a "good move"? How does the recognition of a few more states will change things for the Palestinians? I've no idea what's the point of quoting Meir's comment, which does not relate to either my views or my question. As for quoting King, he'll probably not approve of the hate spewed.

 

Nothing in the post above or previous posts, explains what actual benefits will the supposed "good move" will generate for realizing the Palestinian national aspirations. Scoring diplomatic points, and bashing Israel do not a country make. There's got to be more than that.

 

 

 

 

 

[dexterm]

22 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Precisely how? Precisely what? First you try to imply Israel and USA are somehow "special" about not recognizing the ICC, now go for a mumbo jumbo comment.

 

Your views are extreme, and the EU's positions are not your own. There is actually quite a gap between them, both in substance and style. The EU does not engage in constant one-sided vehement vitriol or demonetization. The standard issue co-opting attempt failed, as usual.

 

Instead of dodging questions, how about addressing them: how does the OP reflect a "good move"? How does the recognition of a few more states will change things for the Palestinians? I've no idea what's the point of quoting Meir's comment, which does not relate to either my views or my question. As for quoting King, he'll probably not approve of the hate spewed.

 

Nothing in the post above or previous posts, explains what actual benefits will the supposed "good move" will generate for realizing the Palestinian national aspirations. Scoring diplomatic points, and bashing Israel do not a country make. There's got to be more than that.

 

 

 

 

 

I have explained above:
The more countries that recognize Palestine as a state = more countries who question Israel's illegal occupation of parts of the state of Palestine. 

 

And if you can't understand that process you are either being obtuse or you are troll baiting.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I have explained above:
The more countries that recognize Palestine as a state = more countries who question Israel's illegal occupation of parts of the state of Palestine. 

 

And if you can't understand that process you are either being obtuse or you are troll baiting.

 

The "explanation" provided is not quite to the point.

 

Most of the countries in the World already recognize the Palestinians one way or another, and do not see Israel's ongoing occupation as legal. All of that is already in place, and been that way for quite a while now - without a whole lot of tangible gains toward the Palestinian achieving their national aspirations.  If more of the same (which to date did not bring about the wished for changes), seems like a qualitatively "good move", that's fine. Not much of argument, but guess that the best on offer.

 

 

 

 

 

[smotherb]

5 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Jerusalem is not about to be divided between religions, but along national lines.

Jerusalem has been and is now divided along religious lines, national lines are incidental.

[crankshaft]

Why would Israel give anything back to the Arabs, whose stated goal is to wipe every last single Jew off the face of the earth.  The Arabs lost the war that they started....land was taken by the victors and is now part of Israel....has happened all through out human history.

[Thorgal]

37 minutes ago, crankshaft said:

Why would Israel give anything back to the Arabs, whose stated goal is to wipe every last single Jew off the face of the earth.  The Arabs lost the war that they started....land was taken by the victors and is now part of Israel....has happened all through out human history.

 

Jewish reign and domination in Jerusalem was only 169 years throughout human history.

 

 

[Stargeezr]

Turkeys new dictator, leader is just trying to strut his stuff.  Why does he concern himself with another country anyway.  Maybe he thinks of himself as such a great leader, that he has forgotten what his old Somali friend Bob did to his country.

Geezer

[Morch]

12 hours ago, smotherb said:

Jerusalem has been and is now divided along religious lines, national lines are incidental.

 

Not really, unless you are somehow conflating between the Old City and Jerusalem in general. But even then, the "division" is not quite as rigid as some imagine.

[Morch]

7 hours ago, Thorgal said:

 

Jewish reign and domination in Jerusalem was only 169 years throughout human history.

 

 

 

Regardless of your "in depth" historical pronunciations, doubt the sort of comparison implied favors the Palestinians in any way.

[Morch]

9 hours ago, crankshaft said:

Why would Israel give anything back to the Arabs, whose stated goal is to wipe every last single Jew off the face of the earth.  The Arabs lost the war that they started....land was taken by the victors and is now part of Israel....has happened all through out human history.

 

Hysterics and hyperbole aside, there are such things as laws and reality. In modern times, it is not automatically acceptable for the victor to keep hold of the land, nor subjugate the losing side. As a matter of practicality - there are about 2.5 million Palestinian living in the West bank, and about 300,000 Palestinians in Jerusalem. There is no reasonable argument which can do away with their presence.

[dexterm]

9 hours ago, crankshaft said:

Why would Israel give anything back to the Arabs, whose stated goal is to wipe every last single Jew off the face of the earth.  The Arabs lost the war that they started....land was taken by the victors and is now part of Israel....has happened all through out human history.

We are not living in the age of Attila the Hun, Ghengis Khan, or a John Wayne western. In the 21st Century most sane people live under International Law and the Geneva Convention, where you are not allowed to conquer others' land and keep it.  Otherwise every powerful nation in the world would be at it, and we'd have anarchy.

But Israel and you seem to think you are exempt from such laws.

 

Besides that, the bottom line is although the Palestinians have not yet achieved a state  in permanent peace with its neighbors, neither have the Israelis. Forever looking over one's shoulder, sending another generation of your children to be brutalized in 3 years of military service is no way to live. 

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, dexterm said:

We are not living in the age of Attila the Hun, Ghengis Khan, or a John Wayne western. In the 21st Century most sane people live under International Law and the Geneva Convention, where you are not allowed to conquer others' land and keep it.  Otherwise every powerful nation in the world would be at it, and we'd have anarchy.

But Israel and you seem to think you are exempt from such laws.

 

Besides that, the bottom line is although the Palestinians have not yet achieved a state  in permanent peace with its neighbors, neither have the Israelis. Forever looking over one's shoulder, sending another generation of your children to be brutalized in 3 years of military service is no way to live. 

 

Not a whole lot of similar objections aired when Hamas or other extreme elements go on one of them "river to sea" things. Them double standards at work, again.

 

As for trying to compare Israel's situation to the non-existent Palestinian state - Israel does have long standing peace treaties with two of its neighbors. And relatively  stable, if hostile, conditions with regard to the rest. Unofficial relations with other regional players, and of course, not a whole lot by way of your negative wishful thinking when it comes to international relations.

 

Not that you are suspected of caring much for Israelis' quality of life, but again - quite nonsensical without any realistic reference to the fact the this is the ME and not Western Europe we're dealing with.

 

As with many of your comments, there's little accounting for how Palestinian leadership decisions contribute to their own predicament and conditions, or how current diplomatic moves will be effective changing things.

[dexterm]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Not a whole lot of similar objections aired when Hamas or other extreme elements go on one of them "river to sea" things. Them double standards at work, again.

 

As for trying to compare Israel's situation to the non-existent Palestinian state - Israel does have long standing peace treaties with two of its neighbors. And relatively  stable, if hostile, conditions with regard to the rest. Unofficial relations with other regional players, and of course, not a whole lot by way of your negative wishful thinking when it comes to international relations.

 

Not that you are suspected of caring much for Israelis' quality of life, but again - quite nonsensical without any realistic reference to the fact the this is the ME and not Western Europe we're dealing with.

 

As with many of your comments, there's little accounting for how Palestinian leadership decisions contribute to their own predicament and conditions, or how current diplomatic moves will be effective changing things.

And you never criticize Zionism. So your point is?

 

The Palestinians are the ones who have had their holy city and lands stolen, not the other way around.
The Palestinians are the ones who have been invaded by mainly European colonizers and are being occupied, not the other way around.
 

Edited December 15, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, dexterm said:

And you never criticize Zionism. So your point is?

 

The Palestinians are the ones who have had their holy city and lands stolen, not the other way around.
The Palestinians are the ones who have been invaded by mainly European colonizers and are being occupied, not the other way around.
 

 

For starters, that is patently untrue. If you have to lie, at least make the lying less inane. That I do not engage in your vehement, hate-filled style of posting does not make your comment any more factual or correct. Also, I don't usually go for hyperbolic wholesale wide-brush nonsense comments, possibly harder for some indulging in such to accept other modes of comment and criticism exist.

 

Give the "stolen" nonsense a rest. The Palestinians never "owned" Jerusalem. And your "colonial" rubbish is nothing more than further deflection.

 

Whining about one side using supposed historical and religious pretext as reasoning for taking the whole cake, but ignoring that the same style of reasoning exists with the other side as well is hypocritical and disingenuous. Your previous post pretended to make a general argument about such practices and views being unacceptable, the current one essentially says its alright for one of the  sides. Them double standards again.

[dexterm]

34 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

For starters, that is patently untrue. If you have to lie, at least make the lying less inane. That I do not engage in your vehement, hate-filled style of posting does not make your comment any more factual or correct. Also, I don't usually go for hyperbolic wholesale wide-brush nonsense comments, possibly harder for some indulging in such to accept other modes of comment and criticism exist.

 

Give the "stolen" nonsense a rest. The Palestinians never "owned" Jerusalem. And your "colonial" rubbish is nothing more than further deflection.

 

Whining about one side using supposed historical and religious pretext as reasoning for taking the whole cake, but ignoring that the same style of reasoning exists with the other side as well is hypocritical and disingenuous. Your previous post pretended to make a general argument about such practices and views being unacceptable, the current one essentially says its alright for one of the  sides. Them double standards again.

You have never even defined what you think Zionism is though repeatedly asked to do so, let alone criticize it.

 

So don't repeatedly attempt to deflect by criticism of my support for the only ones being bullied by the only ones in Palestine with a powerful standing army.

 

Bottom line: Israel will never have a permanent peace until East Jerusalem is the Palestinian capital. So Netanyahu is wasting his breath.

Edited December 15, 2017 by dexterm

[Thorgal]

 
Regardless of your "in depth" historical pronunciations, doubt the sort of comparison implied favors the Palestinians in any way.

For Trump and you:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/timeline-for-the-history-of-jerusalem-4500-bce-present


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Morch]

7 hours ago, dexterm said:

You have never even defined what you think Zionism is though repeatedly asked to do so, let alone criticize it.

 

So don't repeatedly attempt to deflect by criticism of my support for the only ones being bullied by the only ones in Palestine with a powerful standing army.

 

Bottom line: Israel will never have a permanent peace until East Jerusalem is the Palestinian capital. So Netanyahu is wasting his breath.

 

The topic is not about definitions of Zionism. There are many instances in my posts which include criticism of certain aspects and actions related with Zionism and Zionists. That these do not amount to your own brand of mindless all encompassing hatred, is something which you always had trouble coming to terms with. So again - stop lying or make up better lies.

 

Pointing out the hypocrisy and double standards featuring in such posts as above is no deflection. If anything, going on about whichever semi-related topic, and whining when your posts are addressed is exactly such.

 

Israel will never have a permanent peace with the Palestinians, without a compromise, perhaps. But the same holds for the Palestinians themselves. That you choose to see even this in a one-sided manner is truly bizarre.

[Morch]

7 hours ago, Thorgal said:

 

For Trump and you:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/timeline-for-the-history-of-jerusalem-4500-bce-present


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

I get that some posters are unable to grasp that not everyone rejecting their ongoing nonsense is necessarily a Trump supporter. It's also obvious some posters attempt to misrepresent things this way.

 

Spin it all you like, when it comes to history and historical connections, there is not a whole lot of competition here.

[crankshaft]

9 hours ago, dexterm said:

We are not living in the age of Attila the Hun, Ghengis Khan, or a John Wayne western. In the 21st Century most sane people live under International Law and the Geneva Convention, where you are not allowed to conquer others' land and keep it.  Otherwise every powerful nation in the world would be at it, and we'd have anarchy.

But Israel and you seem to think you are exempt from such laws.

 

Besides that, the bottom line is although the Palestinians have not yet achieved a state  in permanent peace with its neighbors, neither have the Israelis. Forever looking over one's shoulder, sending another generation of your children to be brutalized in 3 years of military service is no way to live. 

I guess your conveniently missed the part of my post that said.....the Arabs will not be happy until every last Jew is killed or kicked out of the Middle East. The Arabs have never wanted peace with Israel...and to believe otherwise is rather naive....

[Ahab]

37 minutes ago, crankshaft said:

I guess your conveniently missed the part of my post that said.....the Arabs will not be happy until every last Jew is killed or kicked out of the Middle East. The Arabs have never wanted peace with Israel...and to believe otherwise is rather naive....

You are exactly right. The "Palestinians" have turned down repeated offers for peace, and land, and a two state solution. It appears to anyone with half a brain cell that what they will settle for is the total destruction of Israel before agreeing to any type of peace. That is not peace, but that is why the middle east peace process has been and will be a joke for the foreseeable future. 

[Basil B]

So Trump is no fool...

Two for the price of one, the American Embassy will be the Jewish and Palatalisation Diplomatic Missions  

[Thorgal]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I get that some posters are unable to grasp that not everyone rejecting their ongoing nonsense is necessarily a Trump supporter. It's also obvious some posters attempt to misrepresent things this way.

 

Spin it all you like, when it comes to history and historical connections, there is not a whole lot of competition here.

 

[dexterm]

5 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The topic is not about definitions of Zionism. There are many instances in my posts which include criticism of certain aspects and actions related with Zionism and Zionists. That these do not amount to your own brand of mindless all encompassing hatred, is something which you always had trouble coming to terms with. So again - stop lying or make up better lies.

 

Pointing out the hypocrisy and double standards featuring in such posts as above is no deflection. If anything, going on about whichever semi-related topic, and whining when your posts are addressed is exactly such.

 

Israel will never have a permanent peace with the Palestinians, without a compromise, perhaps. But the same holds for the Palestinians themselves. That you choose to see even this in a one-sided manner is truly bizarre.

The racist supremacist ideology of Zionism is the root cause of the entire conflict. Something you never even question, so don't lecture me about double standards.

 

Take the OP. It's Zionists' supremacists' obsession with Jerusalem being their eternal and undivided city alone, even though the city is sacred to 3 major religions. 

Cut Zionism out of the picture and what on earth would be the problem of East Jerusalem being the capital of a Palestinian state?

 

>>Israel will never have a permanent peace with the Palestinians, without a compromise, perhaps. But the same holds for the Palestinians themselves.
...the Palestinians have compromised already. They have agreed to accept Israel in roughly the 67 borders, allowing Israel to keep all the land it seized and ethnically cleansed between Partition and 67. Since then Israel has greedily gobbled up even more land repeating their ethnic cleanse stunt. 

 

It's like a mugger who steals your wallet, then says "Let's compromise. I'll keep the money but you can have your wallet back."

 

Enough's enough. Israel should accept the negotiating terms of the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative: East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital, keep its large illegal settleemnt blocs, but land swaps to make up the 67 borders, right of return or compensation for Palestinian refugees. 
In return, permanent peace and unconditional recognition from the entire Arab world. Sounds pretty fair to me.

 

Otherwise the Palestinians should raise the stakes to the next level: one man vote in a single state, where all the peoples can share Jerusalem as equals.

[dexterm]

5 hours ago, crankshaft said:

I guess your conveniently missed the part of my post that said.....the Arabs will not be happy until every last Jew is killed or kicked out of the Middle East. The Arabs have never wanted peace with Israel...and to believe otherwise is rather naive....

I guess you conveniently missed a link to your racist fantasy.

 

Palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist more than 20 years ago. They are still waiting for Israel to reciprocate.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I guess you conveniently missed a link to your racist fantasy.

 

Palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist more than 20 years ago. They are still waiting for Israel to reciprocate.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html

The PLO are no longer in power .

The Hamas charter of 2017 calls for the destruction of Israel and for it to be replaced by an Islamic state

[Bluespunk]

On 13/12/2017 at 9:54 AM, webfact said:

Turkey says world must recognise East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital

World tells Turkey

 

“We don’t take orders from fascist governments”. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by Bluespunk

[dexterm]

46 minutes ago, sanemax said:

The PLO are no longer in power .

The Hamas charter of 2017 calls for the destruction of Israel and for it to be replaced by an Islamic state

Well last time I looked it was Abbas head of the Palestinian Authority in attendance this week at the conference in Istanbul. Maybe you are confused.

 

Keep up to speed. Your Zionist apologist manual is out of date.
 
"Hamas presents new charter accepting a Palestine based on 1967 borders"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders

 

The new document states that Hamas is not seeking war with the Jewish people - only with the racist supremacist ideology of Zionism that drives the occupation of Palestine.

Edited December 15, 2017 by dexterm

[sanemax]

5 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Well last time I looked it was Abbas head of the Palestinian Authoiry in attendance this week at the confrence in istanbul. Maybe you are confused.

Keep up to speed. Your Zionist apologist manual is out of date. 
"Hamas presents new charter accepting a Palestine based on 1967 borders"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders

The new document states that Hamas is not seeking war with the Jewish people - only with the racist supremacist ideology of Zionism that drives the occupation of Palestine.

Not this again !!!!

Last time I posted the actual Hamas charter from 2017 which clearly sets out their goals. 

Stay there, I will do a google search and post it once again

Edited December 15, 2017 by sanemax
typo

[sanemax]

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-charter-1637794876

[sanemax]

6 minutes ago, dexterm said:

The new document states that Hamas is not seeking war with the Jewish people - only with the racist supremacist ideology of Zionism that drives the occupation of Palestine.

Yes, that is correct, they have no issues with Jews living in the USA, they just want to annihilate Jews living in Israel .

  Agreed, Palestinians are fighting against Israelis and they have no problem with Jewish non Israelis