Catalan separatist Puigdemont to regain control in blow to Rajoy

[webfact]

Catalan separatist Puigdemont to regain control in blow to Rajoy

By Sonya Dowsett and Sam Edwards

 

People react to results in Catalonia's regional elections at a gathering of the Catalan National Assembly (ANC) in Barcelona, Spain December 21, 2017. REUTERS/Albert Gea

 

BARCELONA (Reuters) - Catalonia's separatist leader Carles Puigdemont is close to regaining leadership of the region in a blow to Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy who sacked him two months ago, reigniting Spain's worst political crisis in decades.

 

With 96 percent of ballots counted in a vote to elect Catalonia's regional parliament, separatist parties are seen winning 70 seats out of 135, with Puigdemont's Junts Per Catalunya (Together for Catalonia) party retaining its position as the largest separatist force.

 

A pro-independence absolute majority would open a new, uncertain chapter and cast doubts over Rajoy's ability to draw a line under the crisis that has damaged Spain's economy and prompted a business exodus away from Catalonia.

 

The election has become a de facto referendum on how support for the separatist movement has fared since Rajoy sacked Puigdemont's government for holding a banned Oct. 1 referendum on splitting with Spain and unilaterally declaring independence.

 

Puigdemont has campaigned from self-imposed exile in Brussels since then, while Spanish authorities have sought his arrest on allegations of rebellion.

 

A victory in the election would mark his redemption after the secessionist movement lost some momentum over the months since the referendum. If he again becomes regional president, it is unclear whether he faces arrest should he return.

 

"As you see, we are the comeback kids," Puigdemont's spokesman Joan Maria Pique said in a text message to Reuters.

 

Rajoy had hoped the election would return Catalonia to what he has called "normality", under a unionist government or with a separatist government that would not seek a unilateral split.

 

He has said he would rescind the direct rule he imposed on Catalonia whatever the result, but could re-impose it if a new government again pursues independence illegally.

 

At pro-independence rallies around Barcelona, supporters chanted "President Puigdemont" and "Long Live the Catalan Republic" as the results came in, with some unfurling giant red-and-yellow pro-independence flags.

 

"I feel happy and relieved. We want independence now - no more waiting," said Elena Carreras, a 51-year-old teacher, smiling broadly as a band played the drums nearby.

 

The results surprised pollsters who were expecting separatist parties to lose control of the parliament and face weeks of haggling over a viable coalition.

 

Unionist party Ciudadanos (Citizens) is set to be the single party that wins the most votes, but a dismal performance by the other members of its coalition - Rajoy's conservative People's Party (PP) and the Socialist Party - mean the three will remain far from the majority.

 

Analysts said a new absolute majority for the pro-independence camp would put the ball back in the central government's court.

 

"What this shows is that the problem for Madrid remains and the secession movement is not going to go away," Antonio Barroso, deputy director of research at London-based research firm Teneo Intelligence, said.

 

"AN IRREPRESSIBLE PEOPLE"

 

Turnout on Thursday reached a record high with over 83 percent of eligible Catalans voting.

 

The atmosphere was one of peace and order as long queues of voters formed, in contrast to the Oct. 1 referendum which was marked by police firing rubber bullets and wielding truncheons to prevent people voting as the central government cracked down on the illegal ballot.

 

Separatist leaders on Thursday said their expected victory showed that Catalans had rejected Madrid's actions since the referendum.

 

"We demand the re-establishment of the legitimate government, the freedom of the prisoners," the Catalan National Assembly (ANC)'s deputy leader Agusti Alcoberro told a cheering crowd in Barcelona.

 

Puigdemont's former deputy Oriol Junqueras and several other Catalan politicians are in prison, along with the leader of the ANC, the main separatist grassroots movement.

 

Earlier on Thursday, Puigdemont urged voters to show they back the movement.

 

"Today we will demonstrate the strength of an irrepressible people. Let the spirit of Oct. 1 guide us always," Puigdemont said. He was due to make a statement later on Thursday.

 

The independence crisis has damaged Spain's economy and prompted a business exodus away from Catalonia, its wealthiest region, to other parts of the country.

 

Direct foreign investment in Catalonia fell by 75 percent in the third quarter from a year earlier, dragging down total investment data for the entire country for the same quarter, according to economy ministry data this week.

 

More than 3,100 companies have moved their legal headquarters out of the region since the beginning of October.

 

International investors showed few signs of nerves on Thursday, with Spanish debt and the euro in demand. The Madrid stock market lagged its euro zone counterparts, however.

 

The crisis has also caused concern in other European countries with secessionist regions.

 

(Additional reporting by Jesus Aguado in Madrid and Robert-Jan Bartunek in Brussels; Writing by Angus Berwick and Ingrid Melander; Editing by Julien Toyer, Jeremy Gaunt and Rosalba O'Brien)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-12-22

[citybiker]

Rajoy's plan backfired, Ines Arrimadas is Triumphant.

 

Interesting times for Spain however Puigdemont remains in excile in Brussels.....for now.

 

European politics, certainly a stark warning of an uncertain climate.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[RuamRudy]

Thankfully this puts to bed all the many suggestions that the split was closer than the Independence supporters suggested. Now the EU has to show its true backbone - it cannot censure Poland for its increasingly authoritarian government while continuing to turn a blind eye to Madrid's tyrannical grip on Catalonia. 

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Thankfully this puts to bed all the many suggestions that the split was closer than the Independence supporters suggested. Now the EU has to show its true backbone - it cannot censure Poland for its increasingly authoritarian government while continuing to turn a blind eye to Madrid's tyrannical grip on Catalonia. 

Tyrannical?

[RuamRudy]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

Tyrannical?

You missed the busloads of police arriving from elsewhere in Spain to beat up women and pensioners, smashing up polling stations and running riot through Barcelona? As far as I can seen, despite there being ample video evidence, there have been no prosecutions for these attacks. What about the jailing of politicians for the heinous crime of not supporting the Spanish government's view? The jailed vice president received 5 days in solitary confinement because he discussed politics with other prisoners . The democratically elected Catalan president has had to go into exile - from a supposedly modern, democratic EU country. It has gotten to the point where the had even the banned the colour yellow.

[ilostmypassword]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You missed the busloads of police arriving from elsewhere in Spain to beat up women and pensioners, smashing up polling stations and running riot through Barcelona? As far as I can seen, despite there being ample video evidence, there have been no prosecutions for these attacks. What about the jailing of politicians for the heinous crime of not supporting the Spanish government's view? The jailed vice president received 5 days in solitary confinement because he discussed politics with other prisoners . The democratically elected Catalan president has had to go into exile - from a supposedly modern, democratic EU country. It has gotten to the point where the had even the banned the colour yellow.

That was really bad. And is that ordinarily the case in Cataloniia? Didn't the government acknowledge that it overreacted?  Are the police still beating up CAtalans, rounding up suspects, torturing them, possibly engaging in extrajudicial killings.  You set a very low bar for "tyrannical."

Madrid representative in Catalonia apologizes for police violence during independence vote

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-violence/madrid-representative-in-catalonia-apologizes-for-police-violence-during-independence-vote-idUSKBN1CB1DB

[RuamRudy]

So the government apologises while taking no punitive action for the imported thuggery, but jails or forces into exile democratically elected officials for executing their voter mandated policies? The police chief was sacked and the constitutional powers of the region stripped away - even the lighting of fountains was banned because it was the wrong colour.

 

tyr·an·ny

ˈtirənē/

noun

 

1. cruel and oppressive government or rule.

   "people who survive war and escape tyranny"

   synonyms:

   despotism, absolute power, autocracy, dictatorship, totalitarianism, Fascism; More

   • a nation under cruel and oppressive government.
   • cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control.

     "she resented his rages and his tyranny"

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Thankfully this puts to bed all the many suggestions that the split was closer than the Independence supporters suggested. Now the EU has to show its true backbone - it cannot censure Poland for its increasingly authoritarian government while continuing to turn a blind eye to Madrid's tyrannical grip on Catalonia. 

 

 Poland is a sovereign state, and member of the EU. Catalonia is a region of Spain. It is the sovereign state of Spain that is a member of the EU.

People in a part of a country cannot unilaterally make decisions that effect the whole country and call it democracy. It isn't.

 

 

[Baerboxer]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

So the government apologises while taking no punitive action for the imported thuggery, but jails or forces into exile democratically elected officials for executing their voter mandated policies? The police chief was sacked and the constitutional powers of the region stripped away - even the lighting of fountains was banned because it was the wrong colour.

 

tyr·an·ny

ˈtirənē/

noun

 

1. cruel and oppressive government or rule.

   "people who survive war and escape tyranny"

   synonyms:

   despotism, absolute power, autocracy, dictatorship, totalitarianism, Fascism; More

   • a nation under cruel and oppressive government.
   • cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control.

     "she resented his rages and his tyranny"

 

The police chief was sacked because he refused to enforce the law and legal decisions of a court. The Catalan politicians who chose to break the law and ignore legal decisions of the courts became criminals by their actions. If you break the law intentionally then you are intentionally committing a criminal act. And all of them broke their oaths of office.

 

Having a political view is fine. Expressing that view is fine. Breaking the law to force your ideas on others isn't. This idea that politicians can simply ignore the law of the land when they fancy it is folly. And the police can never be allowed to pick and choose when and when not to follow the law or ignore court decisions they don't like.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

The police chief was sacked because he refused to enforce the law and legal decisions of a court. The Catalan politicians who chose to break the law and ignore legal decisions of the courts became criminals by their actions. If you break the law intentionally then you are intentionally committing a criminal act. And all of them broke their oaths of office.

 

Having a political view is fine. Expressing that view is fine. Breaking the law to force your ideas on others isn't. This idea that politicians can simply ignore the law of the land when they fancy it is folly. And the police can never be allowed to pick and choose when and when not to follow the law or ignore court decisions they don't like.

 

 

So what do you think is the answer? This conundrum has been brewing for years yet the Madrid stance has been to put its fingers in its ears.

 

The fact is that the Catalan people have repeatedly made clear their dissatisfaction in being governed from Madrid, even in the context of the autonomy afforded to them. Whether you like it or not, they are clear that they want something else.  So much so, should the pro-independence parties reach a coalition agreement, they will have a majority in parliament. Should their wishes be ignored because people elsewhere, who do not share the same values, history or even language disagree?

[BernieOnTour]

back to the future - with Puigdemont ???

 

Seems, the Catalans have a short memory - did they already forgot Mister 3%, Jordi Pujol, filling his coffers with every public contract ?

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, BernieOnTour said:

Seems, the Catalans have a short memory - did they already forgot Mister 3%, Jordi Pujol, filling his coffers with every public contract ?

Why would that have any bearing on the future? Are you suggesting that all Catalans institutionally corrupt? 

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

So the government apologises while taking no punitive action for the imported thuggery, but jails or forces into exile democratically elected officials for executing their voter mandated policies? The police chief was sacked and the constitutional powers of the region stripped away - even the lighting of fountains was banned because it was the wrong colour.

 

tyr·an·ny

ˈtirənē/

noun

 

1. cruel and oppressive government or rule.

   "people who survive war and escape tyranny"

   synonyms:

   despotism, absolute power, autocracy, dictatorship, totalitarianism, Fascism; More

   • a nation under cruel and oppressive government.
   • cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control.

     "she resented his rages and his tyranny"

By your logic, Abraham Lincoln was a tyrant for opposing the secession of the south. And if a state in the USA votes to secede, do you think the Federal government is going to stand by and let it happen? If you base your campaign on doing something illegal and win, that doesn't give you license to go ahead and do it.

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

By your logic, Abraham Lincoln was a tyrant for opposing the secession of the south. And if a state in the USA votes to secede, do you think the Federal government is going to stand by and let it happen? If you base your campaign on doing something illegal and win, that doesn't give you license to go ahead and do it.

I have yet to see an answer to this question - perhaps you could oblige? When Gandhi led his countrymen to Dandi to collect salt, an occupation reserved for the British only, he was breaking the law of the land. Should he have been punished? 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

 Poland is a sovereign state, and member of the EU. Catalonia is a region of Spain. It is the sovereign state of Spain that is a member of the EU.

People in a part of a country cannot unilaterally make decisions that effect the whole country and call it democracy. It isn't.

 

 

 

If you agree with that, how do you feel about a Scottish Independence vote which will affect the UK?

[mercman24]

keep up POST 15 ,  there was a SCOTTISH vote in September 2014 and the remainers won by about half a million votes, because this did not go down well with the Scottish Independent party they wanted another vote, which seems to be the norm nowadays with losers, if things dont go as they planned , same with BREXIT they lost get over it, it was a Democratic vote

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

I have yet to see an answer to this question - perhaps you could oblige? When Gandhi led his countrymen to Dandi to collect salt, an occupation reserved for the British only, he was breaking the law of the land. Should he have been punished? 

You're comparing apples to mangoes. India was a colony and the people had no representation in Parliament.. Last time I checked, Catalans had the right to vote and were full-fledged citizens of Spain.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

You're comparing apples to mangoes. India was a colony and the people had no representation in Parliament.. Last time I checked, Catalans had the right to vote and were full-fledged citizens of Spain.

They are a distinctly unique culture that has been absorbed by a larger entity. This larger entity has, by default, the majority of say over the laws of the land - even if every Catalan voter was to reject Spain, they would be tied to it because of a law with which they do not agree but are powerless to oppose. 

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

keep up POST 15 ,  there was a SCOTTISH vote in September 2014 and the remainers won by about half a million votes, because this did not go down well with the Scottish Independent party they wanted another vote, which seems to be the norm nowadays with losers, if things dont go as they planned , same with BREXIT they lost get over it, it was a Democratic vote

I fear we are getting off topic... but the party is the Scottish Independence Party. 

 

Since that September 2014 referendum, they have won majorities in 2 further elections where they stood on a platform of demanding a repeat referendum should there be a material change to the circumstances of Scotland, contrary to the express wishes of the Scottish people. Therefore they are merely following through with that mandate.

 

Edit: slight correction - since 2014, the SNP plus Independence supporting Green Party won a majority in Holyrood, not the SNP alone. They still have more MPs than all other parties in Scotland.

Edited December 22, 2017 by RuamRudy

[khunken]

The problem is that the Catalans don't have a legal means to pursue what the majority of them want - assuming that the independence voters are in the majority.

 

So should they resort to mild illegal  means like they did before? Or should they resort to guerilla-type warfare against the state - just like the Irish did in 1916, or Bengladesh did, or East Timor, or South Sudan did?

 

I hope they don't resort to warfare but I do think that the Spanish government have to get off their hard-line no-negotiations course and give Catalonia somewhat more than it already has, stopping short of total independence. Maybe Rajoy is the problem.

[manarak]

I'm surprised about the result of the vote, I would have expected fraud to hand the separatists a defeat.

 

The results also highlight the dubious role of the media in spreading lies and propaganda from the central government - I believed them when they claimed only a minority of Catalonians supported independence. Seems it was a big fat lie and the media supported it, instead of organizing opinion polls.

[Grouse]

10 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

So the government apologises while taking no punitive action for the imported thuggery, but jails or forces into exile democratically elected officials for executing their voter mandated policies? The police chief was sacked and the constitutional powers of the region stripped away - even the lighting of fountains was banned because it was the wrong colour.

 

tyr·an·ny

ˈtirənē/

noun

 

1. cruel and oppressive government or rule.

   "people who survive war and escape tyranny"

   synonyms:

   despotism, absolute power, autocracy, dictatorship, totalitarianism, Fascism; More

   • a nation under cruel and oppressive government.
   • cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control.

     "she resented his rages and his tyranny"

For once I think you have this quite wrong. The Catalans are just greedy; they've had ultimate devolvement.

 

Now, if the Catalans want their own state, give it to them. 

 

I think Rajoy has acted honourably. ( unlike that spotty little twerp who ran off)

 

Scotland is a different matter. Do not devalue OUR case!

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Why would that have any bearing on the future? Are you suggesting that all Catalans institutionally corrupt? 

No, just greedy selfish bastards. Ask the aragonese next door!

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, mercman24 said:

keep up POST 15 ,  there was a SCOTTISH vote in September 2014 and the remainers won by about half a million votes, because this did not go down well with the Scottish Independent party they wanted another vote, which seems to be the norm nowadays with losers, if things dont go as they planned , same with BREXIT they lost get over it, it was a Democratic vote

In 2014 the Scots vote to remain with a UK that was a member of the EU

 

In 2016 the Scots voted to remain with the EU

 

Hello!

 

Do you understand that? Or no?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, khunken said:

The problem is that the Catalans don't have a legal means to pursue what the majority of them want - assuming that the independence voters are in the majority.

 

So should they resort to mild illegal  means like they did before? Or should they resort to guerilla-type warfare against the state - just like the Irish did in 1916, or Bengladesh did, or East Timor, or South Sudan did?

 

I hope they don't resort to warfare but I do think that the Spanish government have to get off their hard-line no-negotiations course and give Catalonia somewhat more than it already has, stopping short of total independence. Maybe Rajoy is the problem.

What more would you suggest?

[khunken]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

What more would you suggest?

For starters, now that their economy is sure to take a hit from pull-outs, a greater share of the wealth that they create.

Secondly, and this is just one-off, a proper investigation into the rather brutal crack down during their last referendum. Along with this the release on bail of those in jail without being found guilty by a court.

There also needs to be talks between the central & Catalan governments to sort out future direction. Plus it would be better if Rajoy allowed a more conciliatory member of his government to deal with the Catalans.

I'm sure there's more - that's just off the top of my head.

[Khun Han]

18 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

18 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

You missed the busloads of police arriving from elsewhere in Spain to beat up women and pensioners, smashing up polling stations and running riot through Barcelona? As far as I can seen, despite there being ample video evidence, there have been no prosecutions for these attacks. What about the jailing of politicians for the heinous crime of not supporting the Spanish government's view? The jailed vice president received 5 days in solitary confinement because he discussed politics with other prisoners . The democratically elected Catalan president has had to go into exile - from a supposedly modern, democratic EU country. It has gotten to the point where the had even the banned the colour yellow.

That was really bad. And is that ordinarily the case in Cataloniia? Didn't the government acknowledge that it overreacted?  Are the police still beating up CAtalans, rounding up suspects, torturing them, possibly engaging in extrajudicial killings.  You set a very low bar for "tyrannical."

Madrid representative in Catalonia apologizes for police violence during independence vote

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-violence/madrid-representative-in-catalonia-apologizes-for-police-violence-during-independence-vote-idUSKBN1CB1DB

 

I have had RuamRudy on ignore since he was extremely, and childishly rude to me in the brexit discussions. But I'm going to give his above quoted post a 'trophy' like. I can't give ilostmypassport's lickspittle post a 'dislike'. But I would if I could.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Khun Han
sp

[Khun Han]

9 hours ago, khunken said:

The problem is that the Catalans don't have a legal means to pursue what the majority of them want - assuming that the independence voters are in the majority.

 

So should they resort to mild illegal  means like they did before? Or should they resort to guerilla-type warfare against the state - just like the Irish did in 1916, or Bengladesh did, or East Timor, or South Sudan did?

 

I hope they don't resort to warfare but I do think that the Spanish government have to get off their hard-line no-negotiations course and give Catalonia somewhat more than it already has, stopping short of total independence. Maybe Rajoy is the problem.

 

Along with the Spanish royal family. King Juan Carlos swayed it for common sense the last time there was a crisis of this magnitude. It appears that his successor is more mouse than man.

[Khun Han]

17 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

The police chief was sacked because he refused to enforce the law and legal decisions of a court. The Catalan politicians who chose to break the law and ignore legal decisions of the courts became criminals by their actions. If you break the law intentionally then you are intentionally committing a criminal act. And all of them broke their oaths of office.

 

Having a political view is fine. Expressing that view is fine. Breaking the law to force your ideas on others isn't. This idea that politicians can simply ignore the law of the land when they fancy it is folly. And the police can never be allowed to pick and choose when and when not to follow the law or ignore court decisions they don't like.

 

 

 

History, where it concerns such matters as we are discussing in this thread, rather disagrees with your straightjacket approach.

[Khun Han]

15 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

By your logic, Abraham Lincoln was a tyrant for opposing the secession of the south. And if a state in the USA votes to secede, do you think the Federal government is going to stand by and let it happen? If you base your campaign on doing something illegal and win, that doesn't give you license to go ahead and do it.

 

By your logic, the Republic of Ireland should still be a part of the UK, Nelson Mandela should have died in prison, and so on, and so on, and so on.