4-Year Professional Visas Get Green Light

[mikyhi]

In August it was announced that a 4-Year Professional Visas Got Green Light (smart visa) to start in January 2018 and soon all details would be released.

The latest post that I can find is also dated in August but nothing about the final details. Anybody an idea where we stay now and how to apply for this visa?

 

[Coconut Kidd]

Not a final answer, but found this dated DEC 17:

 

https://www.stbcollaborations.com/blog/thailand-smart-visas

[mikyhi]

Thanks, didn't see this post yet. At least one step further, thanks again.

[Maestro]

Quote

HOW MUCH WILL A THAI SMART VISA COST?
Out of personal curiosity, I reached out to NomadVisa.Tech to see if I was eligible for a Smart Visa next year. Response was much quicker than visa agencies I've used in the past. I was delighted to hear that not only was I eligible, but that it would only cost 75k THB ($2290 USD) for my first year and then 45k THB ($1375 USD) for proceeding years. When I think about all the stress and wasted time on visa runs, it's more than worth it. Nothing is more of a hassle than putting your momentum on hold for a weekend visa run trip.

Source: https://www.stbcollaborations.com/blog/thailand-smart-visas

 

Thank you, Coconut Kidd, for having posted the link to the above information.

[samran]

It won’t be as straight forward as that. I’ve been at a few consultations on this including with the deputy PM and the Board of Investment.

 

The government isn’t aiming for ‘anyone with a laptop’ to sign up. They will need to show funds up front of 600,000 baht for the ‘nomad’ visa which the can draw down on over the space of a year. They will also need to have their skills assessed by one of the agencies at the Ministry of Science and Technology to ensure that it fits into the broader Thailand 4.0 skills set. 

[lkv]

On 24/12/2017 at 9:32 PM, samran said:

It won’t be as straight forward as that. I’ve been at a few consultations on this including with the deputy PM and the Board of Investment.

 

The government isn’t aiming for ‘anyone with a laptop’ to sign up. They will need to show funds up front of 600,000 baht for the ‘nomad’ visa which the can draw down on over the space of a year. They will also need to have their skills assessed by one of the agencies at the Ministry of Science and Technology to ensure that it fits into the broader Thailand 4.0 skills set. 

2

For 75K agency fee one would expect all these 'technicalities' to be looked after. ?

[samran]

13 minutes ago, lkv said:

For 75K agency fee one would expect all these 'technicalities' to be looked after. ?

There will be all sorts of charlitans looking to take your money, that is for sure. Don’t expect this to be a Programme where a bit of under the table cash solves ineligibility.

[lkv]

1 minute ago, samran said:

There will be all sorts of charlitans looking to take your money, that is for sure. Don’t expect this to be a Programme where a bit of under the table cash solves ineligibility.

That may not be the intention over there at the top but there are a lot of hungry mouths to feed in the pyramid.

 

Oh well, it remains to be seen. All I see so far is exploded bribes in the last few years, but the concept that everything has a price hasn't really changed. From ED visas to study Thai without going to school, to studying French or Chinese, self defence combat schools, retirement extensions without the funds and so on.

 

Just saying.

[JackThompson]

 

On 24/12/2017 at 9:32 PM, samran said:

It won’t be as straight forward as that. I’ve been at a few consultations on this including with the deputy PM and the Board of Investment.

I am sure the "official discussions and documents" are thorough, but more sign-offs really boils-down to more hands in the cookie-jar - as planned, with a nice cover-story.  I've seen this movie, before.  The only question is, will those who "really qualify" be able to apply without the agent-payoffs, so that the stated-benefits of this system can be realized, for the benefit of the country. 

 

It must be remembered, in this context, there is a large "cash advance" paid for govt-jobs here, with the expectation of that money being paid back with interest, from the side-chain of income the job provides.  The system in my passport-country is different, in that the payoff to govt-functionaries is a "revolving door" leading to a suspiciously well-paying "next job" working for a company that is a govt-contractor, or needs approvals/favorable-policies from govt to operate.  Operatives go back and forth, increasing their non-govt salaries/benefits with each rotation through this door. 

 

The only reason for the delayed-gratification aspect of the USA's system, is that "our" govt is generally-controlled by 2 factions of corporations, each competing for contracts or favorable policies and legislation which create artificial market-advantages vs the other.  Part of that game is "exposing corruption" when the "other faction's" minions get caught with their hand in the cookie-jar - hence direct-payments to those currently in govt-jobs is limited.

 

But, however you slice it, Supply and Demand are a law of human-sociology/economics, and govt-bureaucrats are given a monopoly on the supply - "by the sword," as it were - so this is the inevitable result. 

 

Quote

The government isn’t aiming for ‘anyone with a laptop’ to sign up. They will need to show funds up front of 600,000 baht for the ‘nomad’ visa which the can draw down on over the space of a year.

We've seen how this works with "agent-assisted" retirement and marriage visas.  I'd guess thousands of extensions with agent-faked-financials are done per-month in Pattaya and Bangkok. 

 

Quote

They will also need to have their skills assessed by one of the agencies at the Ministry of Science and Technology to ensure that it fits into the broader Thailand 4.0 skills set. 

 

The "extra fees" for that Ministry's functionaries could be why the 1st Year agent-fee is higher for the initial approval.  This is not to say that some valid-credentials will not also be required.

 

There is certainly a market for under-50s seeking longer-term visas who are not rich enough to ignore the sticker-price of the Elite (relative to other nation's offers in the region).  The agent-offer cited in this thread is considerably more affordable / priced to the market, but would still keep out the "riff raff" which many authorities would object to assisting. 

 

The push-back, it seems to me, would be from the functionaries currently in the Elite visa's beneficiary-chain.  They would want to ensure that approvals for this new visa are limited and/or they receive a cut of the spoils to go along.  Maybe their cut is already "priced in" to the agent-offer cited and/or they figure the approval process for the new offering is enough of a PITA that the overlap would be limited, and those who can blow the cash for an Elite will continue to do so.

[atyclb]

the first year nomad fee is more than 10 X the normal price (200usd) of a 1 year visa issued at thai embassies. subsequent years also multiple times the normal price.

 

normal 1 year mult entry vietnam visa 150-200usd. 400 for business 1 year visa and no visa runs needed.

Edited December 25, 2017 by atyclb

[JackThompson]

29 minutes ago, atyclb said:

the first year nomad fee is more than 10 X the normal price of a 1 year visa issued at thai embassies. subsequent years also multiple times the normal price.

Yes, but unlike the Non-B offering (which is much cheaper, granted), this visa is not tied to a specific employer - since applicants can forgo "work permits" - correct?  The work-permit + Thai-employer factor is why current offerings simply don't work for so-called "nomads" (really, self-employed people working for non-Thai entities). 

 

Figure that the only existing options are the Elite (with technically illegal-working, even if not currently-enforced - a policy which might change after this is available), or Iglu (with ~250K Baht/yr minimum, in "invoice handling fees"), or a shell-business with fake-employees (which is expensive AND can get you in legal-trouble).  The lack of other viable options is why this is significant.  Someone could pay for this visa, and still operate a business that is competitive in a wider-swath of market niches. 

 

It also purports to allow skipping "90-day reporting" - though online-reporting or mail-in is so easy, and the fine minimal, so I don't see why people would pay much extra for that.

Edited December 25, 2017 by JackThompson

[NorthernRyland]

So they want you to have ~20k USD in the bank? If you have 20k then why are you messing around in the 3rd world on your laptop when you could be back home making good money in the west? I don't get who this visa is going to help.

[mjnaus]

11 minutes ago, genericptr said:

So they want you to have ~20k USD in the bank? If you have 20k then why are you messing around in the 3rd world on your laptop when you could be back home making good money in the west? I don't get who this visa is going to help.

Judging by your post; it won't be for you :)

 

There's plenty of people making decent money being self-employed who love spending several months a year, or more, in Thailand. And it looks like this visa will be helping them doing that legally.

 

If this visa goes through; I am definitely going to be looking in signing up.

[JackThompson]

3 minutes ago, genericptr said:

So they want you to have ~20k USD in the bank? If you have 20k then why are you messing around in the 3rd world on your laptop when you could be back home making good money in the west? I don't get who this visa is going to help.

That assumes you could make "more money vs overhead" working for a company in the West, just because you have the degrees and experience.  In the USA, there are 2x more graduates in Sci-Tech-Engineering every year than job openings, and many of the jobs on offer are filled with millions of modern-day indentured-servants from other countries.  In addition to being willing to work for 1/2 the wage formerly paid when only citizens could work these jobs, their visa is tied to their employer, and so they will work overnights and weekends for free.

 

And then there is the matter of freedom - not having one's work distorted by some pointy-headed boss, whose skill is climbing the corporate-ladder (to use the Dilbert, analogy).  These are often horrible human beings, by nature of the personality/ethics/psychology required to "succeed" in that environment. 

 

Contrast that life, to fulfilling the needs of your clients or customers better and much cheaper than "Big-Corp _tm" does, due to a shorter-chain between your client and the people actually doing the work.  Smaller companies can hire small tech-companies, instead of managing an "I.T. Department," which saves them a fortune. 

 

Working independently is more rewarding than within a stifling corporate-bureaucracy, even when/if the financial-rewards are lower.  But they are often higher, when escaping the West's inflated-costs and declining quality of life, are factored in.

[NorthernRyland]

5 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

Judging by your post; it won't be for you :)

I'm too poor to be in Thailand I guess. No one I know back in the US has 20k unless they're working hard at their job and not messing around in Thailand like I am. :)  I love Thailand but if I had more money I would only be here 3-4 months out of the year (bad driving, pollution, noise affects life quality too much) and in which case just use tourist visas. Just my thoughts.

[NorthernRyland]

 

8 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

In the USA, there are 2x more graduates in Sci-Tech-Engineering every year than job openings, and many of the jobs on offer are filled with millions of modern-day indentured-servants from other countries.  In addition to being willing to work for 1/2 the wage formerly paid when only citizens could work these jobs, their visa is tied to their employer, and so they will work overnights and weekends for free.

 

That much? I'm thinking about going back home to work and people either say these kinds of things (I.e. I'll never get a job with all the Indians) or there are shortages of tech and the average is 100k/year. I guess I need to actually go and find out myself instead of being poor in Thailand. :)

[mjnaus]

1 minute ago, genericptr said:

I'm too poor to be in Thailand I guess. No one I know back in the US has 20k unless they're working hard at their job and not messing around in Thailand like I am. :)  I love Thailand but if I had more money I would only be here 3-4 months out of the year (bad driving, pollution, noise affects life quality too much) and in which case just use tourist visas. Just my thoughts.

 

We live in interesting times, don't we? These days, it's very possible for people to be working hard at their jobs while messing around in Thailand. I realize it's hard to grasp for people who have spend their working live in a more conventional manner though...

 

Even if you were to go the tourist visa route, you wouldn't be allowed to continue working. Which imo would the biggest issue this new visa could deal with.

[Thaidream]

While I can see the utility of this nomad Visa- and I like the idea of freedom etc from horrid companies and bosses-  there is a certain reality that bites.  If one chooses this lifestyle their earnings will be adequate for year by year living but what are they going to do when they reach retirement age and they have not earned any credits for a government pension, such as Social Security or pension schemes for other countries.  

As much as I would have loved to do this when I was younger- I figured out that I could make alot more money and build retirement working for a Western Corporation. Getting old in Thailand without a firm pension coming in every month is not recommended .

[mjnaus]

13 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

While I can see the utility of this nomad Visa- and I like the idea of freedom etc from horrid companies and bosses-  there is a certain reality that bites.  If one chooses this lifestyle their earnings will be adequate for year by year living but what are they going to do when they reach retirement age and they have not earned any credits for a government pension, such as Social Security or pension schemes for other countries.  

As much as I would have loved to do this when I was younger- I figured out that I could make alot more money and build retirement working for a Western Corporation. Getting old in Thailand without a firm pension coming in every month is not recommended .

 

If you could not have envisioned a scenario where you ventured out on your own, were 100% in control and would have won big, than you made the right choice sticking with the conventional career path. To each his own I guess...

 

In my early 20's, I was literally ready to kill myself while considering being a corporate slave for the next 40 years, hoping someone else would at some point decide I was allowed to retire. I envisioned I would be better served being fully in charge of my own life.

[JackThompson]

4 minutes ago, genericptr said:

That much? I'm thinking about going back home to work and people either say these kinds of things (I.e. I'll never get a job with all the Indians) or there are shortages of tech and the average is 100k/year. I guess I need to actually go and find out myself instead of being poor in Thailand. :)

No reason to "be poor" here.  But "average" wages are very deceptive.  Kind of like "per-capita share of a nation's GDP," without considering its distribution.  Even a quintile analysis is misleading, because the top 0.01% are mixed into the top 20%. 

 

To illustrate, if you take annual-income in the USA and represent it on a football field, where the median income is the fifty yard line, a stack of $100 bills at the 50-yard-line would be about an inch tall.  The 90th percentile, at the 10 yard line, would be about two inches thick. At the 1 yard line, slightly less than 12 inches tall.  At the 1 foot line, the stack would be 40 inches tall.  But at the 1 inch line, the stack would be several miles high.

 

There is a similar distribution among "tech workers" in the sample - where upper people making high-salaries are mixed in with the regular types, creating the illusion of a "high average wage."

 

If you are young, right out of college, and appear full of exploitable youthful-energy, I would definitely try to get the best paying gig you can get at home, before exploring overseas options.  Even if the pay isn't great, some real-world experience is good - even if only to learn why you never want to work in that environment, again.  But if you are older, like me - even with good credentials - all I can say is, "Been there and tried that," and "Good luck."

[samran]

33 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

While I can see the utility of this nomad Visa- and I like the idea of freedom etc from horrid companies and bosses-  there is a certain reality that bites.  If one chooses this lifestyle their earnings will be adequate for year by year living but what are they going to do when they reach retirement age and they have not earned any credits for a government pension, such as Social Security or pension schemes for other countries.  

As much as I would have loved to do this when I was younger- I figured out that I could make alot more money and build retirement working for a Western Corporation. Getting old in Thailand without a firm pension coming in every month is not recommended .

I work for myself and put away roughly 15-20% of gross earnings on an annual basis for pension. But you are right, most never think about it and even i started 10 years later that I perhaps should have. 

Edited December 25, 2017 by samran

[MyFriend You]

so I guess being a Professional Smart Retiree doesn't count hey??

[Thaidream]

Samran is correct- if one is going to work away from their 'home' country - they must initiate a retirement contribution on their own.   

I admire those who are trying to avoid the humdrum life of the corporate World  but let's face it- most people who come to Thailand and become digital nomads are not making enough money to sustain a middle class lifestyle for the long term and also plan for retirement. In addition, Thailand in 20 years will be an industrialized country with industrialized costs and possibly inflation to go along with it.

Fifty years ago when I was starting out- we had no technology; we were subject to military conscription and  most  people never dreamed about a World economy and hardly anyone went abroad to work or even considered retirement abroad.  There are many more opportunities now but I am still not sure that I could abandon a good paying job with benefits and a firm pension  to attempt to work as digital nomad with little future security. That's probably why I am not wealthy-afraid to take the chance.

[mjnaus]

1 minute ago, Thaidream said:

That's probably why I am not wealthy-afraid to take the chance.

I'd say that's an accurate assessment.

[FritsSikkink]

2 hours ago, genericptr said:

So they want you to have ~20k USD in the bank? If you have 20k then why are you messing around in the 3rd world on your laptop when you could be back home making good money in the west? I don't get who this visa is going to help.

This is for serious entrepreneurs, not for somebody who can only build a website or sell bits and bobs and couldn't survive on that money in the west.

[NorthernRyland]

2 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

This is for serious entrepreneurs, not for somebody who can only build a website or sell bits and bobs and couldn't survive on that money in the west.

That makes more sense I guess but I don't know why you wouldn't just get a work permit then and hire people if you're so "serious". From the news I thought this was more a formal way to acknowledge this new category of people who have various streams of income and afford to live in Thailand but don't technically work on Thai soil as such. The bar to entry is too high from my experience with these people and myself, but what do I know.

[NorthernRyland]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

In addition, Thailand in 20 years will be an industrialized country with industrialized costs and possibly inflation to go along with it.

I'm really fascinated myself on this. It's booming now but the longer I'm here the more it feels like a thin veneer over what is still a 3rd world country. Quality of life for me has gone down here with more development, due to poor planning and Thai culture not scaling well to cities (in my opinion). Good luck to them in the future.

[mjnaus]

That makes more sense I guess but I don't know why you wouldn't just get a work permit then and hire people if you're so "serious". From the news I thought this was more a formal way to acknowledge this new category of people who have various streams of income and afford to live in Thailand but don't technically work on Thai soil as such. The bar to entry is too high from my experience with these people and myself, but what do I know.

Why would you equate "being serious" to setting up a Thai company and hiring useless local staff. In this day and age, more and more companies have remote and distributed teams.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[FritsSikkink]

3 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

 

Why would you equate "being serious" to setting up a Thai company and hiring useless local staff. In this day and age, more and more companies have remote and distributed teams.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Hire good Thai staff, there are loads around. You don't get them for peanuts though.

Edited December 25, 2017 by FritsSikkink

[mjnaus]

50 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Hire good Thai staff, there are loads around. You don't get them for peanuts though.

 

Been there, done that and will never bother again. Having access to literally a world of awesome talent, rolling the dice with Thai staff just isn't worth it.