Need to get rental agreement on land done properly.

[Eric Meyer Canada]

Can anyone recommend a lawyer to draw up a rental agreement on some land that I will buy and develop but my wife has title to the land. It is in the Buriram area. She has already filled out a form that she got from the government and said that I have paid for 30 years of rent up front already.  But I can not read Thai. So I really have no idea what it says. 555 I trust her, but at the same time I am not stupid. (Well, maybe bit stupid) Can someone please offer me some advice and point me in the right direction? I am a newbie on here. I looked through the subjects and  didn't see anything directly related to my issue. Maybe I missed it though, if there was. Thank-you in advance.

 

[Peterw42]

 

[Eric Meyer Canada]

Thank-you.  I presume Siam-Legal is really the only place I can go to then?

 

[Peterw42]

2 minutes ago, Eric Meyer Canada said:

Thank-you.  I presume Siam-Legal is really the only place I can go to then?

 

Lots of lawyers may be able to help you with a userfruct (ongoing access to land), I was just pointing out a recent post that appears to say that you cant do the 30 years leases etc. 

[KarenBravo]

You already have a 30 year lease.

Check to see if your name (it'll be written in Thai) is on the back of the land paper.

You need a translator, not a lawyer.

[Eric Meyer Canada]

Yeah, I caught that part. I am a bit worried now. I need to do a lot more research and hopefully that is not in all areas. I have already sunk a couple million baht into the place. But, I don't want to go further until I get something to hopefully cover my ass a little bit anyway. I trust her, but I have been married a couple of times before and know that can change fast. 555

 

[KarenBravo]

Did you actually go to the land office and sign the form there?

The longest legal lease is 30 years. The form to make this lease is a standard document available at any land office.

You will also need to pay a small tax on the rent you have given for the lease. You will get an official receipt for this.

 

If you have indeed got a lease, your name will be on the back of the land paper, you will have your copy of the lease agreement and you will have the tax receipt.

 

P.S. I've done this twice without the use of lawyers.

Edited December 27, 2017 by KarenBravo

[Eric Meyer Canada]

2 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

You already have a 30 year lease.

Check to see if your name (it'll be written in Thai) is on the back of the land paper.

You need a translator, not a lawyer.

Ok, thanks. I will dig the paper up in a bit. The paper "looks"  legit to me and was witnessed by her parents. I want her to get the head of the village to witness it or confirm it or something too. 

 

I just don't want to end up as one of the horror stories in Thailand. I know there are many happy stories too. At least mine does not start with "I met her in a bar". 555 

 

[Eric Meyer Canada]

Just now, KarenBravo said:

Did you actually go to the land office and sign the form there?

The longest legal lease is 30 years. The form to make this lease is a standard document available at any land office.

You will also need to pay a small tax on the rent you have given for the lease. You will get an official receipt for this.

 

If you have indeed got a lease, your name will be on the back of the land paper, you will have your copy of the lease agreement and you will have the tax receipt.

I don't have a tax receipt. I will ask her if it is registered at the land office and if she has a receipt.

 

[KarenBravo]

1 minute ago, Eric Meyer Canada said:

I don't have a tax receipt. I will ask her if it is registered at the land office and if she has a receipt.

 

Yup.......that's what you have to do. Don't forget to check your name on the back of the land paper.

P.S. You have to pay some rent, your girlfriend cannot claim she "gave" you the lease as the land department want a tax on the transaction.

Edited December 27, 2017 by KarenBravo

[Eric Meyer Canada]

3 minutes ago, Eric Meyer Canada said:

I don't have a tax receipt. I will ask her if it is registered at the land office and if she has a receipt.

 

She was at the land office, I was not. But she had several pieces of paper (that looked official, maybe famous last words 555). 

[KarenBravo]

3 minutes ago, Eric Meyer Canada said:

She was at the land office, I was not. But she had several pieces of paper (that looked official, maybe famous last words 555). 

You can get all the official looking paperwork without registering the lease.

Even if you get a tax receipt, there's no guarantee that the lease isn't in her mother's name and not yours.

Frankly, the only thing you need to see is a translation of the back of the land paper. The lease agreement would also be handy.

Edited December 27, 2017 by KarenBravo

[Eric Meyer Canada]

Just now, KarenBravo said:

You can get all the official looking paperwork without registering the lease.

Even if you get a tax receipt, there's no guarantee that the lease is isn't in her mother's name and not yours.

Frankly, the only thing you need to see is a translation of the back of the land paper. The lease agreement would also be handy.

Thank-you very much. I will be checking that stuff shortly. I will be going home (to Thailand) next month and want to have this all done then. The whole family seems like very honest and genuine people. 

[KarenBravo]

26 minutes ago, Eric Meyer Canada said:

The whole family seems like very honest and genuine people. 

Maybe they are. What you find out will prove it, right?

[Eric Meyer Canada]

3 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

Maybe they are. What you find out will prove it, right?

Yes. I need to find out soon before I get too financially involved. I hope it is all good. (obviously 555) They offered to give us their home so we did not need to build one. It is about 5 years old, but traditional Thai style. I like many things Thai, but I don't know what they were thinking when they designed their house. They are happy there, that is what matters. I want more a European style home. Thankfully my wife feels the same way. 555

[steven100]

6 minutes ago, Eric Meyer Canada said:

Yes. I need to find out soon before I get too financially involved. I hope it is all good. (obviously 555) They offered to give us their home so we did not need to build one. It is about 5 years old, but traditional Thai style. I like many things Thai, but I don't know what they were thinking when they designed their house. They are happy there, that is what matters. I want more a European style home. Thankfully my wife feels the same way. 555

It sounds like she is a good girl and the parents do care ... especially as they offered their home,  most wouldn't do that.

Don't be too negative or pesimistic just because  of the stories some farangs have failed relationships,  they probably thought everything was for free.  good luck, and appreciate what you have and the parents.  

[Eric Meyer Canada]

2 minutes ago, steven100 said:

It sounds like she is a good girl and the parents do care ... especially as they offered their home,  most wouldn't do that.

Don't be too negative or pesimistic just because  of the stories some farangs have failed relationships,  they probably thought everything was for free.  good luck, and appreciate what you have and the parents.  

I am a bit nervous just because it is a relationship. 555 I would feel the same way if it was in Canada too, other than I have a better grasp of what the laws are here and the language.  I treat my family there very well, and they treat me well too. They think I am a little crazy, but appreciate things I do and buy for them. I am still learning a lot about the culture and want to fit in as much as a tall white guy can in a village. 555 1009 days until I move there permanently. :-) Not that I am counting.

 

[thainet]

Well I think you are an idiot to be 2m in the hole already without any idea of what is happening. Married or not, she still owns the land and everything else on it. At this time you have nothing to show that you have legally leased the land and/or have rights of habitation.

Of course she wants a newer style European house, and she will own that outright also, as at this time you have given her the money to buy the land, and anything on the land is hers.

Trust or not, with the land, and whats on it, gets to to be a substantial sum then it becomes a temptation and you seem so gullible.

Sorry I am harsh here, but you need a wake up call or a good swift up the backside.

Bottom Line---check everything up to now, make sure the papers etc are correct and get a competent person to help you.

If its not as it seems then walk away now.

 

And I just saw your last post that you are not even fulltime in Thailand for 3 more years....wow!

Edited December 27, 2017 by thainet
extra words

[Eric Meyer Canada]

2 minutes ago, thainet said:

Well I think you are an idiot to be 2m in the hole already without any idea of what is happening. Married or not, she still owns the land and everything else on it. At this time you have nothing to show that you have legally leased the land and/or have rights of habitation.

Of course she wants a newer style European house, and she will own that outright also, as at this time you have given her the money to buy the land, and anything on the land is hers.

Trust or not, with the land, and whats on it, gets to to be a substantial sum then it becomes a temptation and you seem so gullible.

Sorry I am harsh here, but you need a wake up call or a good swift up the backside.

Bottom Line---check everything up to now, make sure the papers etc are correct and get a competent person to help you.

If its not as it seems then walk away now.

Your criticism of me is well deserved, and you are 100% correct. But at the same time, it is what it is. If she screws me out of a bit of money it is not the end of the world. I am not going further until I have everything in place and secured. If I can't do that, then the place will remain the way it is and I will just live in a condo. No need to apologize for being harsh, you didn't say anything that I haven't already said to myself. 555 But really in the grand scheme of life a couple million baht either way is not the end of the world.

 

[thainet]

Good attitude, if the money is no object.

But even with the lease agreement in place it is not foolproof, as you have a lease to live there only, and theoretically she could sell the land (or borrow on it) and you are left out in the cold (probably colder than Canada!).

My advice is this: if you are not permanantly here for 3 years then just leave it as is for now. If it's still there in 3 years then go through the proceedures correctly, if it's been sold or whatever then chalk it up to experience.

[ubonjoe]

Isaan Lawyers in Korat would be a good choice. http://www.thailawonline.com/en/

[Eric Meyer Canada]

14 hours ago, thainet said:

Good attitude, if the money is no object.

But even with the lease agreement in place it is not foolproof, as you have a lease to live there only, and theoretically she could sell the land (or borrow on it) and you are left out in the cold (probably colder than Canada!).

My advice is this: if you are not permanantly here for 3 years then just leave it as is for now. If it's still there in 3 years then go through the proceedures correctly, if it's been sold or whatever then chalk it up to experience.

I would not say money is no object. But, I am realistic. Money comes and goes. I am not rich. Losing money sucks, but there is not much point in worrying about it.  I am leaning towards doing what your advice is. 

 

[The Theory]

On 12/27/2017 at 10:17 AM, KarenBravo said:

Did you actually go to the land office and sign the form there?

The longest legal lease is 30 years. The form to make this lease is a standard document available at any land office.

You will also need to pay a small tax on the rent you have given for the lease. You will get an official receipt for this.

 

If you have indeed got a lease, your name will be on the back of the land paper, you will have your copy of the lease agreement and you will have the tax receipt.

 

P.S. I've done this twice without the use of lawyers.

Then will you be allowed to build a house on the land with that "standard lease" ? Or need something more to allow you to build on the land ?

 

[GOLDBUGGY]

If I was you I would look into a "Usufruct" for Thailand if it is not too late, as this offeres you the best protection and rights in Thailand. I few telephone calls and you shouldn't have trouble finding a lawyer in your area to draw that out for you. It is well known here. The cost also wasn't very high, although I can't rememeber now exactly what it was, but under $300. I had mine drawn out in Thai and also English, and witnessed by the Lawyer. 

 

With a Usufruct, you wife would still be the owner, but you would have rights to use this house and land as you like for the rest of your life. You can even rent it out to somebody else if you like for up to 3 years at a time. You can reap all the profits from the land as well. 

 

With a Usurfruct you are also regestered on the Land Title for life. I brought in the papers from the Pawyer and it was done no problem. The Usufruct can only be removed if you die or agree to move it, or in a Court Settlement, as in a Divorce. No Contract you make with your wife in Thailand is binding, as a Divorce can break any of those, so not less protection than you have right now.

 

The best part of the Usufruct is that it is for life. In the even your wife should die, and the property changes hands, you can still stay on the property as before and until you die. Not sure you can do that with a rental agreement or lease. From my research it offers the best protection you can get in Thailand. I to was married two time before.     

[KarenBravo]

50 minutes ago, The Theory said:

Then will you be allowed to build a house on the land with that "standard lease" ? Or need something more to allow you to build on the land ?

 

Yes, you can go ahead and build the house, though, it has to be in the name of someone. You are allowed to own it, but, if it's in your name, it will be a pain to get electricity meter and other things. A lot simpler in a Thai name.

[hiigara]

5 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

If I was you I would look into a "Usufruct" for Thailand if it is not too late, as this offeres you the best protection and rights in Thailand. I few telephone calls and you shouldn't have trouble finding a lawyer in your area to draw that out for you. It is well known here. The cost also wasn't very high, although I can't rememeber now exactly what it was, but under $300. I had mine drawn out in Thai and also English, and witnessed by the Lawyer. 

 

With a Usufruct, you wife would still be the owner, but you would have rights to use this house and land as you like for the rest of your life. You can even rent it out to somebody else if you like for up to 3 years at a time. You can reap all the profits from the land as well. 

 

With a Usurfruct you are also regestered on the Land Title for life. I brought in the papers from the Pawyer and it was done no problem. The Usufruct can only be removed if you die or agree to move it, or in a Court Settlement, as in a Divorce. No Contract you make with your wife in Thailand is binding, as a Divorce can break any of those, so not less protection than you have right now.

 

The best part of the Usufruct is that it is for life. In the even your wife should die, and the property changes hands, you can still stay on the property as before and until you die. Not sure you can do that with a rental agreement or lease. From my research it offers the best protection you can get in Thailand. I to was married two time before.     

How would that "Usufruct" work in case of divorce or if the wife decides to sell the land? (knock on wood)

Edited December 28, 2017 by hiigara

[GOLDBUGGY]

9 hours ago, hiigara said:

How would that "Usufruct" work in case of divorce or if the wife decides to sell the land? (knock on wood)

If the wife decides to sell the land, or pass this land on to relatives after her death, the Usufruct remains intacked. In otherwords, the Usufruct remains in full force no matter who owns the land. You name remains on the Land Title and stays with the Land, and not the owner. So this obviously makes it difficult to sell this land or mortgage it. It is possible, as if your wife were to die, but it is unlikely someone would buy the land with you on it and full use to this land for life. Or give a mortgage on it, when they can not reclaim this land on default and have you removed so they can sell it to regain there loses. 

 

A Divorce breaks all rule, and like most anywhere else. This includes a Usufruct, as well as a Lease Agreement or Rental Agreement made with your wife. If the Usufruct was put in place prior to your marriage then it would more likely still be honoured as this would be considered land brought into the relationship by your wife before marriage. Which she and you get to keep.

 

If however the Usufruct was signed with your wife after the marrige, which is very common by-the-way, this property would be considered Matrimonial Property. Thailand Divorce Laws are very much the same as many other Divorce Laws. In general this property would be sold and split 50/50 with you and your x-wife. The Usufruct would remain in force until the propety was sold. Whether you would still want to live there after that may be another story. But selling this land and getting half of your money back is probably the best option anyway.  

 

In a Divorce it is always possible to make some deal with your x-wife. Many people decide to keep the Family Home and buy out the other partner. So you can make any deal you want, keeping in mind that you cannot own this land in your name. So you may have to move the Land Title over to a trusted Thai (Son or Daughter) if you so choose.  

[GOLDBUGGY]

A Usufruct is also quite easy to do and no moeny has to change hands. 

 

Get a copy of the Land Ttile from the seller and go to a lawyer who deals with Usufructs. They should be easy to find in your area and your wife will know of one. I found one on my first telephone call in Udon Thani.

 

With a copy of the Land Title, which will also show if there are any leans (debts) on this property, and if in fact the seller owns ths land and can legally sell it, have a Lawyer draw up a Usufruct Contract. My Lawyer made one in English as well as a duplicate in Thai. All Lawyers have offical Laguage Translaters that they can use. 

 

Once the legal papers are drawn up you will be called back to the Lawyers Office.  In my case this took about 3 working days. My Wife and I signed both documents, with the Lawyer as a Witness, and who also was a Notary Public. If I recall the cost was around 9,500 Baht, but I also had several pacels of land involved here. 

 

On the Official Selling Day, my wife and I and the seller all went to the Land Office. I can't recall all the papers that needed signing except to say there are people there who will help you with this. But they do not speak English very well, so you will need your Thai Wife to tranlate. The Seller went first to talk to this Land Agent, and after signing some papers we paid him cash for the land and he was allowed to go. 

 

On our turn I was explained that this land belonged to my wife which I had to agree that I know and except that. I gave them the documents of the Usufruct and signed a few papers, along with my wife and we were finished. The land was first transfered over to my wife, and about 3 weeks later another copy was issued with my name attached to the Land Title on as the Usufruct. 

 

All quite painless and quite swift. As I said no money had to change hands and no future tax obligatons from rental property. The Seller agreed to pay the Lands Transfer Tax as part of the sale, but generally it is 50/50. I think that was about 3.5%, but it has been quite a few years since then.    

[sanuk711]

When Siam legal had a blog here, I am sure they stated that you can not have a contract between Husband and wife. This may have changed or maybe I have it incorrectly.

One thing is important -- and often overlooked --Wife having a Will. As unlike the west it doesn't automatically go to the husband.

 

 

If there is no Thai will, the intestate's assets must be distributed in accordance with the classes of relations as stipulated in the CCC Section 1629 which are, in order of priority:

 

    descendants;

 

    parents;

 

    brothers and sisters of full blood;

 

    brothers and sisters of half blood;

 

    grandfathers and grandmothers;

 

    uncles and aunts.

 

Siam Legal

Descendants being the children--means you are number 7 in line for your property should your lady have a motor bike accident--I am sure her parents are nice people but maybe the Uncles/Aunts "Brothers" may not be so accommodating.

 

I have posted Siam Legal Webb site a few times here----I am not recommending them--I have never dealt with them. Their webb site However may be able to answer some of your questions.

https://www.siam-legal.com/

 

** Do you have a smart phone ? you know the translate App now changes all Thai sand script to English..its free...Just turn it on and hover over any Sentence/Paragraph  to change, I even do it with Menus --street names etc

 

.

Edited January 2, 2018 by sanuk711

[ubonjoe]

Siam Legal does not always keep their websites updated.

38 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

I am sure they stated that you can not have a contract between Husband and wife.

That is not correct.

 

40 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

Descendants being the children--means you are number 7 in line for your property should your lady have a motor bike accident--I am sure her parents are nice people but maybe the Uncles/Aunts "Brothers" may not be so accommodating.

 

 

If legally married you an heir according to Thai law.

Quote

The surviving spouse is also a statutory heir (Section 1635 CCC). It must be a legal and registered marriage.

Source: http://thailawonline.com/en/family/inheritance-and-wills.html