Junta Orders Pro-Democracy Leaders Charged With Inciting Rebellion

[JAG]

2 hours ago, irwinfc said:

nobody agrees to this kind of "harassment", but people seem to have forgotten that thailand is still NOT under a democratically-elected government. they must've been living too normally to remember that itsy bitsy teenie weenie detail.

Perhaps we should remember that this "government" from the moment it seized power (in a coup during and forstalling an entirely constitutional election process) has always stated that their intention is to restore democracy. They constantly debate, define and redefine democracy, in ever more obscure ways. They claim to support and guarantee human rights for their people, and they are led by a man who professes to be "a democratic soldier"!

That's why we should continue to comment. The Thais cannot, we (at present) can. We should.

Edited January 31, 2018 by JAG

[Eligius]

11 minutes ago, JAG said:

Perhaps we should remember that this "government" from the moment it seized power (in a coup during and forstalling an entirely constitutional election process) has always stated that their intention is to restore democracy. They constantly debate, define and redefine democracy, in ever more obscure ways. They claim to support and guarantee human rights for their people, and they are led by a man who professes to be "a democratic soldier"!

That's why we should continue to comment. The Thais cannot, we (at present) can. We should.

Brilliantly stated, JAG.

One thing that appals me almost as much as the junta itself is those Westerners who have enjoyed in the West all the benefits of good, analytical and open education, plus freedom of speech, and yet come here and support tyranny enforced at the end of a barrel of a tank or gun. For me, such types are beneath contempt.

[YetAnother]

21 hours ago, webfact said:

Junta Orders Pro-Democracy Leaders Charged With Inciting Rebellion

it is a dark time for thailand, might even get worse as the current ruling bunch will stay on for quite some time

[kaorop]

1 hour ago, Eligius said:

Brilliantly stated, JAG.

One thing that appals me almost as much as the junta itself is those Westerners who have enjoyed in the West all the benefits of good, analytical and open education, plus freedom of speech, and yet come here and support tyranny enforced at the end of a barrel of a tank or gun. For me, such types are beneath contempt.

But 'they' arent real people  and are posting just to keep the numbers up by posting outrage inciting posts. Ive got them on ignore, but i dont login so much these days and when browsing see the banal drivel and then the outraged replies...frustrating to say the least..

[isaanbanhou]

3 minutes ago, kaorop said:

But 'they' arent real people  and are posting just to keep the numbers up by posting outrage inciting posts. Ive got them on ignore, but i dont login so much these days and when browsing see the banal drivel and then the outraged replies...frustrating to say the least..

agreed scum of the earth to want for others what they wouldn t accept for themselves

[Eligius]

3 minutes ago, kaorop said:

But 'they' arent real people  and are posting just to keep the numbers up by posting outrage inciting posts. Ive got them on ignore, but i dont login so much these days and when browsing see the banal drivel and then the outraged replies...frustrating to say the least..

You might be right, Kaorop - it's quite possible that such posters are just trolls or shock-merchants. On the other hand, I feel they could well be sincere and genuine in the viewpoints they express. I suspect they are. I know such Westerners personally (unfortunately). Fascists really do exist, although thankfully constitute a minority viewpoint amongst most educated Westerners with whom I come into contact ...

[ChidlomDweller]

12 hours ago, Surasak said:

Thailand. Classed as one of the least free countries in the world

What's shocking is the utter and complete lawlessness that came before.  So if I may add a little correction, it's the most free if you're agitating for the elites that have controlled the country since 1932.

[Eric Loh]

3 minutes ago, Eligius said:

You might be right, Kaorop - it's quite possible that such posters are just trolls or shock-merchants. On the other hand, I feel they could well be sincere and genuine in the viewpoints they express. I suspect they are. I know such Westerners personally (unfortunately). Fascists really do exist, although thankfully constitute a minority viewpoint amongst most educated Westerners with whom I come into contact ...

I do respect others opinion but there are few recalcitrants who provoke and give lame excuses like the country is peaceful knowing full well the reasons why it’s peaceful or corruption has been addressed and disregarding those blatant junta corruption. They use those trivial achievements like getting chairs off the beach or vendors off the streets as accomplishments. Then there are those who cheered the economic numbers and disregard the low bases and economic nose dive after the coup from previous highs. 

[Ron19]

A number of troll posts and answers to them have been removed.

[Odysseus123]

19 minutes ago, Eligius said:

You might be right, Kaorop - it's quite possible that such posters are just trolls or shock-merchants. On the other hand, I feel they could well be sincere and genuine in the viewpoints they express. I suspect they are. I know such Westerners personally (unfortunately). Fascists really do exist, although thankfully constitute a minority viewpoint amongst most educated Westerners with whom I come into contact ...

Yes,I agree with you.

 

I have certainly met foreigners in Thailand who spent an inordinate amount of time informing me that the Thai people were not ready for democracy..before hauling off on their usual tangents of Merkel and/or Brexit.

 

Ultra-conservative might be a relatively neutral way of describing their intellectual position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Odysseus123

[Eligius]

17 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Yes,I agree with you.

 

I have certainly met foreigners in Thailand who spent an inordinate amount of time informing me that the Thai people were not ready for democracy..before hauling off on their usual tangents of Merkel and/or Brexit.

 

Ultra-conservative might be a relatively neutral way of describing their intellectual position

 

Yes, Odysseus123, I am with you on this one. Isn't it amazing that some ultra-conservative people (some truly are fascists, in fact) bang on about Thailand not being ready for democracy - when in fact the Thais have never been given the chance to DEVELOP democracy?! You don't get a perfectly functioning democracy overnight. People need to get used to exercising this system of government, need to learn how to operate within its parameters - but none of this can happen if democracy keeps being snatched away from them by pea-brained dictators and the clock wound back to Year Zero!

[Eligius]

36 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

there are few recalcitrants who provoke and give lame excuses like the country is peaceful knowing full well the reasons why it’s peaceful or corruption has been addressed and disregarding those blatant junta corruption ...

Well said, Eric. Yes, isn't it  pathetic for people to say (and I hear it fairly often) that 'but the country is peaceful now'? Peaceful?? Having a gun held to your head does NOT constitute peace, in any meaningful sense of the term (in fact, it is the very opposite)!

 

As for corruption, as you rightly say or imply, only an idiot would fail to see the blatant and outrageous corruption that is going on before our very eyes on a daily basis.

[Eric Loh]

13 minutes ago, Eligius said:

You don't get a perfectly functioning democracy overnight.

Look no further than South Korea, Indonesia and Philippines for good references. Last coup respectively 1961, 1965 and 1989. Now look at how well they have progressed democratically and economically. 

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, ChidlomDweller said:

What's shocking is the utter and complete lawlessness that came before.  So if I may add a little correction, it's the most free if you're agitating for the elites that have controlled the country since 1932.

 

Didnt the 1949 constitution ensure more freedom?  Isn't this the least freedom since the 1951 constitution?

[Odysseus123]

56 minutes ago, Eligius said:

Yes, Odysseus123, I am with you on this one. Isn't it amazing that some ultra-conservative people (some truly are fascists, in fact) bang on about Thailand not being ready for democracy - when in fact the Thais have never been given the chance to DEVELOP democracy?! You don't get a perfectly functioning democracy overnight. People need to get used to exercising this system of government, need to learn how to operate within its parameters - but none of this can happen if democracy keeps being snatched away from them by pea-brained dictators and the clock wound back to Year Zero!

Indeed.

 

A bit of practice is more than likely to improve performance in the long run.

 

Historically speaking Democracy did not spring forth fully clothed in any country-be it Athens,Britain or the United States.It is true that some have had democracy imposed (or reimposed) upon them ie Germany and Japan but on the whole it has been a politically evolutionary process whereby more and more segments of the population are invited to participate and where a form of pluralism and tolerance can prevail.

 

This generates its own political,social,cultural and economic momentum,Nobody says its perfect but it is better than the alternatives espoused thus far.

 

Pluralism is the key and that is what has been denied Thailand for so long and condemned it to live in its own peculiar,rigidly hegemonic Twilight Zone for over 80 years.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Odysseus123

[heybruce]

17 hours ago, toughlove said:

the junta laughing their tits off. What A totall embarrassmemt and just goes to prove many thais cannot think 3 mins into the future

"hey somchai nobody turned up. Doesn't matter Let's go the millions will follow!! and we will be superstar"

These guys will be prosecuted just for their unbelievable selfish stupidity

In the mean time the the other 60 mill living their peaceful lives and probably shaking their heads at the silly people in the pic

I wondered when the junta shill would arrive.

 

Now you are advocating arresting anyone with the temerity to call for elections because risking one's freedom for democracy is "selfish stupidity".  The junta is determined to show that resistance is futile and dangerous, but you don't see that as repression, do you?

[heybruce]

16 hours ago, HooHaa said:

For all the "knowledgeable" discussion of the junta, the elections and of thai politics in general, everyone seems to pointedly ignore this single, overarching reality.

 

The junta have secured power for the military ad infinitum.

 

Oddly the junta itself seem to have forgotten they jury-rigged the constitution on their own behalf - unless of course they are buying time to rig the elections by slowly removing all opposition before they are called thereby "earning" the right to call themselves an elected government.

 

Either way they are good really. They have all the guns.

If the election shows clear opposition to military rule, the military will lose face.  They will still hold power, but they prefer to hold power and stay in denial of how unpopular they are.

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, kaorop said:

But 'they' arent real people  and are posting just to keep the numbers up by posting outrage inciting posts. Ive got them on ignore, but i dont login so much these days and when browsing see the banal drivel and then the outraged replies...frustrating to say the least..

Why would anyone care what their numbers on TV are? 

 

TV is a tool for people who want to learn what life is like for expats in Thailand.  Immediately after the coup the junta enthusiasts dominated the posts.  I and a few others wanted to present a more sane view, one that would not mislead people still learning about politics in Thailand.

[PatOngo]

On ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 1:51 PM, Creasy said:

So this is democracy Thai style ?

Thai Niyom, thank you very much. 

[ChidlomDweller]

7 hours ago, Eligius said:

Yes, isn't it  pathetic for people to say (and I hear it fairly often) that 'but the country is peaceful now'? Peaceful?? Having a gun held to your head does NOT constitute peace, in any meaningful sense of the term (in fact, it is the very opposite)!

This, and the ones who make that argument were disrupting the peace in the first place.  A case of the arsonist complaining about frequent fires.

[ChidlomDweller]

8 hours ago, Eligius said:

when in fact the Thais have never been given the chance to DEVELOP democracy?! You don't get a perfectly functioning democracy overnight. People need to get used to exercising this system of government, need to learn how to operate within its parameters - but none of this can happen if democracy keeps being snatched away from them by pea-brained dictators and the clock wound back to Year Zero!

What I think is a real shame is that the early buds of democratic development were stamped out again.  If there were an election again tomorrow, Yingluck would win by a landslide.  Before the coup, disaffection and disillusionment with the PT party was beginning to grow, and political space opening up for an alternative.  Finally a chance of healthy democratic evolution.  Now that's gone.  

 

Given another 5 or so years, while curtailing the Shins worst excesses by legal means, as was working well enough by early 2014, the PT could have been voted out by a more worthy crop of politicians.  Some may laugh and call this pie in the skie, but I'll take that over coups under fake pretenses and political groundhog day every cycle.  Now it'll be another 20 years before some buds of democratic development may become visible.  

 

In a very narrow sense, junta lovers have a point that having an election now is pointless with no decent politicians to choose from, but whose fault is that?  And how is a junta whose sole purpose is to saveguard the interests of  Thailand's 1-percenters better?

Edited January 31, 2018 by ChidlomDweller

[metisdead]

A post containing a disallowed reference to the current government has been removed. 

[Eligius]

47 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

What I think is a real shame is that the early buds of democratic development were stamped out again.  If there were an election again tomorrow, Yingluck would win by a landslide.  Before the coup, disaffection and disillusionment with the PT party was beginning to grow, and political space opening up for an alternative.  Finally a chance of healthy democratic evolution.  Now that's gone.  

 

Given another 5 or so years, while curtailing the Shins worst excesses by legal means, as was working well enough by early 2014, the PT could have been voted out by a more worthy crop of politicians.  Some may laugh and call this pie in the skie, but I'll take that over coups under fake pretenses and political groundhog day every cycle.  Now it'll be another 20 years before some buds of democratic development may become visible.  

 

In a very narrow sense, junta lovers have a point that having an election now is pointless with no decent politicians to choose from, but whose fault is that?  And how is a junta whose sole purpose is to saveguard the interests of  Thailand's 1-percenters better?

You are so, so right, my friend. I remember speaking to Red Shirt friends and colleagues in 2014 and they told me how in the North-East there was the beginning of dissatisfaction and disaffection with the Shinawatras amongst the Reds. If democracy had been allowed to follow its natural developmental course, a much saner and more equitable government could have emerged and democracy really put down lasting roots. But as it is, an intolerant and autocratic mindset has prevailed and blighted the political landscape for years to come ...

Edited January 31, 2018 by Eligius

[greeneking]

12 hours ago, JAG said:

Perhaps we should remember that this "government" from the moment it seized power (in a coup during and forstalling an entirely constitutional election process) has always stated that their intention is to restore democracy. They constantly debate, define and redefine democracy, in ever more obscure ways. They claim to support and guarantee human rights for their people, and they are led by a man who professes to be "a democratic soldier"!

That's why we should continue to comment. The Thais cannot, we (at present) can. We should.

I know whatever I say will make little difference, but I would feel great if it was my straw that broke the camel's back.

I should do something to comment on the situation, because so many Thais feel they can not or have decades of experience that says Thailand will not change.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, ChidlomDweller said:

What I think is a real shame is that the early buds of democratic development were stamped out again.  If there were an election again tomorrow, Yingluck would win by a landslide.  Before the coup, disaffection and disillusionment with the PT party was beginning to grow, and political space opening up for an alternative.  Finally a chance of healthy democratic evolution.  Now that's gone.  

 

Given another 5 or so years, while curtailing the Shins worst excesses by legal means, as was working well enough by early 2014, the PT could have been voted out by a more worthy crop of politicians.  Some may laugh and call this pie in the skie, but I'll take that over coups under fake pretenses and political groundhog day every cycle.  Now it'll be another 20 years before some buds of democratic development may become visible.  

 

In a very narrow sense, junta lovers have a point that having an election now is pointless with no decent politicians to choose from, but whose fault is that?  And how is a junta whose sole purpose is to saveguard the interests of  Thailand's 1-percenters better?

 

I disagree with your first statement about Yingluck winning by a landslide simply because she has been tainted by her brother. Perhaps the PTP may get more of the votes but no way would it be a landslide. Thai people in the last few years have learnt a lot via the internet and the social media.

 

Not one government since 1932 has gone far beyond the "We won the election and that is democracy" stage. Democracy has never been allowed to grow in Thailand no matter WHO was in power.

 

I agree with you 100% that there are very few to no decent politicians or political parties worth voting for in Thailand.

 

So for the Thai people it doesn't matter very much who the people vote for as not much will change.

 

The only thing I can say in favour of the current lot is at least they seem to be looking into the future with 20 year planning. Something that most other governments never bothered to do.

 

Whether it is the right 20 year planning is of course a different kettle of sausages.

[heybruce]

15 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I disagree with your first statement about Yingluck winning by a landslide simply because she has been tainted by her brother. Perhaps the PTP may get more of the votes but no way would it be a landslide. Thai people in the last few years have learnt a lot via the internet and the social media.

 

Not one government since 1932 has gone far beyond the "We won the election and that is democracy" stage. Democracy has never been allowed to grow in Thailand no matter WHO was in power.

 

I agree with you 100% that there are very few to no decent politicians or political parties worth voting for in Thailand.

 

So for the Thai people it doesn't matter very much who the people vote for as not much will change.

 

The only thing I can say in favour of the current lot is at least they seem to be looking into the future with 20 year planning. Something that most other governments never bothered to do.

 

Whether it is the right 20 year planning is of course a different kettle of sausages.

" Not one government since 1932 has gone far beyond the "We won the election and that is democracy" stage."

 

With only one exception, no elected government since 1932 has been allowed to serve its full elected term.  That one exception was Thaksin, and we know how long his attempt at a second elected term lasted.

 

As has been explained repeatedly, democracy takes time to mature.  The military and elites have ensured that this never happens in Thailand.  The "looking into the future" you refer to is the elites ensuring that no elected government has real power and can threaten the wealth and control of the elites.

[Odysseus123]

15 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I disagree with your first statement about Yingluck winning by a landslide simply because she has been tainted by her brother. Perhaps the PTP may get more of the votes but no way would it be a landslide. Thai people in the last few years have learnt a lot via the internet and the social media.

 

Not one government since 1932 has gone far beyond the "We won the election and that is democracy" stage. Democracy has never been allowed to grow in Thailand no matter WHO was in power.

 

I agree with you 100% that there are very few to no decent politicians or political parties worth voting for in Thailand.

 

So for the Thai people it doesn't matter very much who the people vote for as not much will change.

 

The only thing I can say in favour of the current lot is at least they seem to be looking into the future with 20 year planning. Something that most other governments never bothered to do.

 

Whether it is the right 20 year planning is of course a different kettle of sausages.

Doublespeak.

 

Brilliantly done and consistently applied.

[kaorop]

On Wed Jan 31 2018 at 1:24 PM, heybruce said:

Why would anyone care what their numbers on TV are? 

 

TV is a tool for people who want to learn what life is like for expats in Thailand.  Immediately after the coup the junta enthusiasts dominated the posts.  I and a few others wanted to present a more sane view, one that would not mislead people still learning about politics in Thailand.

Do you realize that clicks generate income for the site owners? And that they employ CBT's to increase that number...not sure how anyone doesnt know this, nor be not able to spot them...unless of course they happen to be one, as it is also known that they pretend to argue with another CBT.  Oh and i was posting back then to and in the junta threads and pointing out the long gone cbts (english john, dj jamie etc.) but i dont seem to remember you?

Edited February 1, 2018 by kaorop

[greenchair]

7 minutes ago, kaorop said:

Do you realize that clicks generate income for the site owners? And that they employ CBT's to increase that number...not sure how anyone doesnt know this, nor be not able to spot them...unless of course they happen to be one, as it is also known that they pretend to argue with another CBT. 

How do I get one of those jobs? 

[heybruce]

6 minutes ago, kaorop said:

Do you realize that clicks generate income for the site owners? And that they employ CBT's to increase that number...not sure how anyone doesnt know this, nor be not able to spot them...unless of course they happen to be one, as it is also known that they pretend to argue with another CBT.  Oh and i was posting back then to and in the junta threads and pointing out the long gone cbts (english john, dj jamie etc.) but i dont seem to remember you?

I'm sure the advertising revenue TV receives is based on some measure of traffic, but I don't worry about that.  Expenses have to be covered.  I don't know what a CBT is.  I always assumed posters like english john, djjamie, and others were retirees with way too much free time.  I also assume that they are posting less because defending the junta is becoming increasingly difficult.