Start with crypto now - Should or not?

[speedtripler]

A lot of "warning", posts from people who possess a wealth of no idea.... Yet they are hanging out on a cryptocurrency subforum for some strange reason..... 

 

 

[HerbalEd]

I'll trust what Warren Buffett has to say about cryptocurrencies: "It will end badly."

[speedtripler]

Just now, HerbalEd said:

I'll trust what Warren Buffett has to say about cryptocurrencies: "It will end badly."

Buffett is good at what he does but the man is 85

He didn't understand Microsoft, Google or amazon either

It's unfair Imo to keep asking him about future technologies that he will be dead before get fully rolled out

[Calach]

5 hours ago, Sakeopete said:

I see crypto as a ponzzi scheme. So asking online if you should invest is like asking drug dealers if you should take drugs.

 

Crypto may be a bubble, a pyramid (not more than any successful stock), a fraud, whatever, but I wonder why reasonable people would keep calling it a Ponzi, when Ponzi is a specific scam that doesn't correspond at all to anything cryptos could be blamed for, apart from very particular ones (such as Bitconnect).

 

Bitcoin isn't paying fake interests to early investors with the stake of later ones, it's just a speculative instrument that get valued according to supply and demand. 

 

Sovereign debts could be called Ponzi for instance, but cryptos, except maybe for the sake of using fancy world to make it look like one knows what they're talking about, nope. 

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Calach

[Calach]

10 minutes ago, speedtripler said:

A lot of "warning", posts from people who possess a wealth of no idea.... Yet they are hanging out on a cryptocurrency subforum for some strange reason..... 

 

 

 

There was an hysterical FUD article some days ago in the Telegraph from a journalist who went ballistic on crypto, claiming that he "had been closely following the market for years now". I wonder what resolve it must take for one guy to watch a +2000% build up with disdain.

 

We're having quite a bunch of "experts" in a domain they despise to distribute definitive opinions on what they mostly ignore. The thing is we know this market better than them, it's actually even more insane than they think, but we have the humility to not pretend to know what will happen and to consider all possible eventualities.

 

Ultimately what matters is not being right on forums, it's making money with this opportunity of a lifetime and managing risk. 

[Skeptic7]

46 minutes ago, speedtripler said:

A lot of "warning", posts from people who possess a wealth of no idea.... Yet they are hanging out on a cryptocurrency subforum for some strange reason..... 

 

 

Nothing at all strange about it. OP asked for IDEAS...not just your idea or positive opinions. FYI...many of us here possess not only a wealth of ideas, but actual wealth.  

[Dario]

36 minutes ago, Calach said:

Ultimately what matters is not being right on forums, it's making money with this opportunity of a lifetime and managing risk. 

Very well said, Calach. Right out of my heart.

[Skeptic7]

A lovely example of recent "risk management" 

 

 

 

[siamcrut]

All in

[Calach]

 

10 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

A lovely example of recent "risk management" 

55, you have no clue what you're talking about, do you :-) 

 

PS: that's just routine.

 

 

 

[Days Off]

3 hours ago, Dario said:

Great answers made by people who have no clue what they are talking about, as usual. Nobody can make any real predictions about the coins, period. No need to spread things you cannot substantiate.

As to my opinion, the coins are presently bottoming, I only assume this. The moment to start buying carefully, is near. Bit by bit. I think Ripple (XR) is better to trade in than Bitcoin itself as the possible gains are much, much higher. This is only a suggestion, as I have made quite a lot of gains with this altcoin. And its the third most traded coin.

This is great stuff...nobody is qualified to give an opinion...but here’s my opinion...

 

The cryptos are no different than real estate was in Florida 15 years ago.  When everybody and their brother wants a piece of the pie you know it’s a sign that the easy money has already been had.  

 

At this point the play is going to be finding solid companies that can actually make profitable use of the technology, not the coins themselves.

 

Good luck...you’re going to need it.

[lkn]

2 hours ago, Calach said:

Bitcoin isn't paying fake interests to early investors with the stake of later ones, it's just a speculative instrument that get valued according to supply and demand. 

The similarity to a ponzi scheme is that it is a zero-sum game.

 

The only way you can win on bitcoin is if someone else is losing, since no actual value is being created.

 

So if I bought in 2011 and sold in 2017, my gains would be paid for by those who bought in 2017, who in turn will need for the price to go up further and then sell to new investors, before they can cash out and achieve any gains from their investment.

 

So in that sense, new investors pay for old investors (cashing out), just like a ponzi scheme.

 

[Calach]

Just now, lkn said:

The similarity to a ponzi scheme is that it is a zero-sum game.

 

The only way you can win on bitcoin is if someone else is losing, since no actual value is being created.

 

So if I bought in 2011 and sold in 2017, my gains would be paid for by those who bought in 2017, who in turn will need for the price to go up further and then sell to new investors, before they can cash out and achieve any gains from their investment.

 

So in that sense, new investors pay for old investors (cashing out), just like a ponzi scheme.

 

This is a bit far-fetched. It's the case with every trading market, in every trade there is always a winner and a loser. With stocks there are dividends (sometimes, and relatively small), but in Forex for instance each side makes a bet on the future direction of a currency chart. I doubt they think they'll own a share of the American gold or oil against their USD.

[lkn]

11 minutes ago, Calach said:

This is a bit far-fetched. It's the case with every trading market, in every trade there is always a winner and a loser. With stocks there are dividends (sometimes, and relatively small), but in Forex for instance each side makes a bet on the future direction of a currency chart. I doubt they think they'll own a share of the American gold or oil against their USD.

Cyptocurrency is certainly not the only zero-sum game, but there are definitely many win-win trades (i.e. non-zero sum).

 

 

One type of investment is basically lending money to an enterprise to create something that generates revenue. Both you (the investor) and the enterprise stands to benefit from this trade, though normally the more you stand to gain, the higher the risk.

 

With bitcoin, no-one is using your money to create anything, nor do you get any shares or equity in anything (OK, some of the altcoins do give you tokens that are meant to represent some sort of value, but the token issuer is not bound by any obligations as a publicly traded company would be, should you buy their shares).

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, Calach said:

 

55, you have no clue what you're talking about, do you :-) 

 

PS: that's just routine.

 

 

 

55...your post proves u have no understanding of my post, nor risk management, nor what u are spouting off about...as that was exactly my point. High risk...extremely volatile...'just routine' for highly speculative, unstable bubble "investing". 

[Calach]

2 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

55...your post proves u have no understanding of my post, nor risk management, nor what u are spouting off about...as that was exactly my point. High risk...extremely volatile...'just routine' for highly speculative, unstable bubble "investing". 

 

I do not misunderstand your post, it just is irrelevant. Risk management in a trading environment is not a complicated concept though, and a chart going up or down doesn't say anything about it.

[DeeMak9]

Looking at the amount of people telling you here that cryptos are all ponzis and that it is all speculation, it is definitely the right time to buy now. There is still a huge amount of naysayers who will eventually join in. However, before investing in bitcoin, ethereum or any other cryptocurrency, you will need to educate yourself first and that takes time. Thaivisa in general is not the right place to ask for advice. Start with youtube for example. Also, be prepared of a very wild ride. In this market you can lose 50% of the USD value in a day. If you arent prepared to sit on it for a longer period of time, do not do it, unless you know exactly what you're doing.

 

So in short, educate yourself, start with the big two (bitcoin and ethereum) and educate yourself more.

 

Personally I hold Sonm (fog computing), Modum (Temprature sensors for pharma (and others) transportations powered by Blockchain. Basically a modern stock with dividends, did an ICO instead of IPO) and I mine Ethereum. I live full time on crypto.

Edited February 3, 2018 by DeeMak9

[speedtripler]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

The similarity to a ponzi scheme is that it is a zero-sum game.

 

The only way you can win on bitcoin is if someone else is losing, since no actual value is being created.

 

So if I bought in 2011 and sold in 2017, my gains would be paid for by those who bought in 2017, who in turn will need for the price to go up further and then sell to new investors, before they can cash out and achieve any gains from their investment.

 

So in that sense, new investors pay for old investors (cashing out), just like a ponzi scheme.

 

You've just described gold...... 

[speedtripler]

3 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Nothing at all strange about it. OP asked for IDEAS...not just your idea or positive opinions. FYI...many of us here possess not only a wealth of ideas, but actual wealth.  

I could flip a coin for your net worth son..... 

 

The strange question is why you spend your time on a cryptocurrency subforum if all you want to do is spread mindless FUD? 

 

Is your life really that empty?, seriously 

.. Is it? 

[DeeMak9]

6 minutes ago, speedtripler said:

You've just described gold...... 

Not only gold but fiat as well. You could even swap "bitcoin" with "sofas" and its still correct. If people stop buying something, it wont have any value. Genius!

 

And before people start saying Bitcoin is hardly used as a payment method, they should consider that at least half of the cryptocurrency trades are in Bitcoin. Which is approximately 15 billion dollars daily.

Edited February 3, 2018 by DeeMak9

[Skeptic7]

7 minutes ago, speedtripler said:

I could flip a coin for your net worth son..... 

 

The strange question is why you spend your time on a cryptocurrency subforum if all you want to do is spread mindless FUD? 

 

Is your life really that empty?, seriously 

.. Is it? 

Same question back atcha...Son. And ain't calling u that cuz ur so bright! Flip away Son...flip away! 

[Skeptic7]

What is a 'Bubble'

A bubble is an economic cycle characterized by rapid escalation of asset prices followed by a contraction. It is created by a surge in asset prices unwarranted by the fundamentals of the asset and driven by exuberant market behavior. When no more investors are willing to buy at the elevated price, a massive selloff occurs, causing the bubble to deflate.

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and replies have been removed.  Just because somebody does not agree with somebody elses opinion is not an invitation to flame, let's keep it civil folks. 

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, speedtripler said:

You've just described gold...... 

Nice try, but not exactly. Gold has thousands of years of historical and perceived value...cryptos do not. Gold has industrial and medical uses...cryptos do not. Gold has unique properties and uses...cryptos do not. And gold can be physically held...cryptos cannot. To state it clearly...if one invests in horse manure and it goes to zero, still got a handful of shit to show for it! 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Skeptic7

[Colabamumbai]

Bitcoin started in 2009. 90% of bitcoins are owned by 2% of people. I research before I talk. 

[lkn]

1 hour ago, DeeMak9 said:

However, before investing in bitcoin, ethereum or any other cryptocurrency, you will need to educate yourself first and that takes time. Thaivisa in general is not the right place to ask for advice. Start with youtube for example.

I am curious about what sort of “education” you think is required to become a cryptocurrency investor.

 

I would suggest a technical understanding of the underlying platform, that would be the blockchain to understand why it has a major scalability problem, what smart contracts are, so you understand why these actually won’t be usable for many of the things people claim, and of course also how the lightning network is supposed to work with payment channels (locked deposits), so you can make your own judgement about how feasible this actually is.

 

Then of course there is game theory, as it’s good to understand the incentives of the players involved, so you understand e.g. why we ended up with the bitcoin fork last year, and how “secure” the trustless decentralized currency actually is.

 

Now you should also learn how a securities market work, and the regulation that exist to prevent price manipulation and people trading with unfair advantages, how none of this regulation exists in the world of cryptocurrencies, and how easy it is to manipulate the price. Definitely also read about the more than two billion USDT tokens that have been used to buy up bitcoin (and thus pumped the price) which no-one actually knows for sure is actually backed by real USD.

 

And if you believe bitcoin will ever be used as a currency, I would suggest reading about the issues of a deflationary currency, why basically all economists think going off the gold standard was a good thing, but also learn how valuation of sovereign currencies work, i.e. the exporters need to pay tax and thus a country with a surplus will have demand for their currency which is not just driven by speculation, how central banks can, to some degree, stabilize their currencies by giving investor incentives or disincentives.

 

Lastly I would suggest reading about how some of the coins that were explicitly marked as ponzi schemes turned out, spoiler alert: people went all in! The most interesting one is PoWHCoin, because here you was supposed to get a dividend, but due to a programmer error, the smart contract would never pay it out, but people still sent money to the smart contract, even after this was announced, and then someone found an exploit and ran away with it all, yet people continued to buy the coin; i.e. people are not sawy investors, they are just buying coins left and right hoping for a good return, even when the people behind the coin themselves are saying it’s a scam (made for the lolz).

 

Oh… and also read some of the undercover work done about the pump and dump groups that have spring up.

 

Once you have “educated” yourself about all of the above topics, my hope is that you do not feel it necessary to watch youtube videos about the latest bananacoin that you just must have…

 

Adding to my list, maybe also read how Ripple’s XRP is basically just sending 300 million of dollars to Ripple Labs each month…

[Sirbergan]

9 minutes ago, Colabamumbai said:

Bitcoin started in 2009. 90% of bitcoins are owned by 2% of people. I research before I talk. 

2% of people? Do you mean 2% of the holders? Your statement, research or not, doesn't make much sense.

[speedtripler]

14 minutes ago, Colabamumbai said:

Bitcoin started in 2009. 90% of bitcoins are owned by 2% of people. I research before I talk. 

proof ?

[DeeMak9]

39 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Nice try, but not exactly. Gold has thousands of years of historical and perceived value...cryptos do not. Gold has industrial and medical uses...cryptos do not. Gold has unique properties and uses...cryptos do not. And gold can be physically held...cryptos cannot. To state it clearly...if one invests in horse manure and it goes to zero, still got a handful of shit to show for it! 

 

- Gold has thousands of years of historical and perceived value 

So what?

 

- Gold has industrial and medical uses...cryptos do not

Simply wrong statement. They both do.

 

- Gold has unique properties and uses...cryptos do not

Again wrong statement. They do.

 

- And gold can be physically held...cryptos cannot

Again, wrong. I hold all my private keys offline.

 

To state it clearly, can you please stop replying here if you have no clue? Thank you very much.

Edited February 3, 2018 by DeeMak9

[Sirbergan]

Most countries are not profitable, they keep printing money to keep an artificial system going and make their countries afloat – and the supposed gold and/or oil reserve backing up the USD - no proof of that, let's take the US governments word for it, shall we? The whole FIAT system is based on all countries believing the US actually has the reserves they claim they have to back up the dollar.

 

FIAT is flawed beyond belief!