Israeli minister 'honoured' to be barred from Poland over Holocaust bill

[webfact]

Israeli minister 'honoured' to be barred from Poland over Holocaust bill

By Lidia Kelly and Maayan Lubell

 

FILE PHOTO - Israeli Education Minister Naftali Bennett enters the weekly cabinet meeting at the Prime Minister's office in Jerusalem February 4, 2018. REUTERS/Jim Hollander/Pool

 

WARSAW/JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel's education minister said on Monday he was "honoured" Poland had cancelled his visit to Warsaw this week because he refused to back off of condemnation of a bill that would outlaw suggesting Poland was complicit in the Holocaust.

 

Earlier on Monday, Naftali Bennett said he would travel to Poland to discuss the bill, which Israeli officials have said amounts to Holocaust denial. However Poland's government spokeswoman said there would be no such visit.

 

"The blood of Polish Jews cries from the ground, and no law will silence it," Bennett later said in a statement. "The government of Poland cancelled my visit, because I mentioned the crimes of its people. I am honoured."

 

After Bennett's statement, the government spokeswoman declined to comment further on the issue.

 

Israel has denounced the Polish Holocaust bill, which passed in parliament last week and is awaiting a decision by President Andrzej Duda over whether to sign it.

 

The Polish measure would impose prison sentences of up to three years for mentioning the term "Polish death camps" and for suggesting "publicly and against the facts" that the Polish nation or state was complicit in Nazi Germany's crimes.

 

Poland's rightwing nationalist government says the bill is necessary to protect the reputation of Poles as victims of Nazi aggression. Israel says the law would ban true statements about the role that some Poles played in Nazi crimes.

 

The bill has drawn criticism from the United States and condemnation from a number of international organisations as well as Polish minority groups.

 

Poland, which had Europe's biggest Jewish population when it was invaded by both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union at the start of World War Two, became ground zero for the "final solution", Hitler's plan to exterminate the Jews of Europe.

 

More than three million of Poland's 3.2 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis, accounting for about half of the Jews killed in the Holocaust.

 

Jews from across the continent were sent to be killed at death camps built and operated by Germans in Poland, including Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor.

 

According to figures from the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, the Nazis also killed at least 1.9 million non-Jewish Polish civilians.

 

"The death camps in Poland were built and operated by the Germans, and we cannot allow them to evade responsibility for these actions," Bennett said.

"However, many Polish people, all over the country, chased, informed or actively took part in the murder of over 200,000 Jews during, and after, the Holocaust. Only a few thousand people, Righteous Among the Nations, risked themselves to save Jews."

 

(Additional reporting by Pawel Sobczak in WARSAW; Writing by Lidia Kelly; Editing by Peter Graff)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-02-06

[lovelomsak]

I like this  guy. 

  It happened and Poland cannot deny it no matter how hard they try.

  As with every thing every where there are 2 sides but the Nazi movement did have strong support in Poland

[ezzra]

If Poland deny it's involvements in the massacre of millions of jews, how about, at least, return their properties?

 

Since becoming a democracy in 1989, a number of bills have been proposed in Poland to deal with the restitution of, or compensation for, private property seized by the Nazis and/or later nationalized by the Communist regime – none became law. Poland stands alone as the only major country in the former Soviet bloc, and member state of the European Union, without such a law.

Moreover, after repeated, unfulfilled commitments to pass a restitution law over the years, the Government of
Poland claimed in the spring of 2012 that such a law is unnecessary. Instead, government officials assert that
restitution claimants should go to the Polish court system to seek justice, despite the fact that such a complex,
expensive, burdensome and time-consuming path would serve – and, for years, has served – as a de facto
barrier to elderly survivors and their heirs.

About 90% of the approximately 3,300,000 Jews who lived in Poland prior to the Second World War were
killed in the Holocaust. Tens of thousands of Jewish and non-Jewish rightful owners – and the heirs of rightful
owners – of real property in Poland not only continue to be left without what is rightfully theirs, but also
without any serious effort by the government to provide even a semblance of justice....

[ilostmypassword]

Interesting that Israel is pursuing this. Given that it's extremely likely that its most ardent backer in the EU, the UK, will soon depart, you would think Israel would be more circumspect in reproaching the Poles who have also been disposed to support Israel in international fora.

[Bluespunk]

34 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Interesting that Israel is pursuing this. Given that it's extremely likely that its most ardent backer in the EU, the UK, will soon depart, you would think Israel would be more circumspect in reproaching the Poles who have also been disposed to support Israel in international fora.

So you are acknowledging, Israel has principles, then?

[ilostmypassword]

20 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

So you are acknowledging, Israel has principles, then?

Or perhaps competing political interests are served by this action.

[Bluespunk]

13 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Or perhaps competing political interests are served by this action.

No, it seems they have a belief that those trying to hide the truths that lie behind the holocaust should be exposed for what they are. 

 

I, for one, fully support such a stance. 

 

Edit: don’t get me wrong, there are many occasions when I find the actions of the Israeli state to be appalling. It’s just in this case, I think they are right. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Bluespunk

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

No, it seems they have a belief that those trying to hide the truths that lie behind the holocaust should be exposed for what they are. 

 

I, for one, fully support such a stance. 

Given Israel's pronouncements on other issues, It's hard to believe that the Israeli stance on the holocaust is solely or chiefly due to a noble and disinterested belief in the importance of the truth,  I suspect the motives are multiple as is usually the case when discussing why states do what they do.

[Bluespunk]

9 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Given Israel's pronouncements on other issues, It's hard to believe that the Israeli stance on the holocaust is solely or chiefly due to a noble and disinterested belief in the importance of the truth,  I suspect the motives are multiple as is usually the case when discussing why states do what they do.

I still support their stand here and I still believe it is one based on principle. 

[ilostmypassword]

18 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I still support their stand here and I still believe it is one based on principle. 

I agree with the Israeli govt's stand on this, too. That doesn't require me to subscribe necessarily to the unsullied purity of its motives.

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

I agree with the Israeli govt's stand on this, too. That doesn't require me to subscribe necessarily to the unsullied purity of its motives.

Guess we’ll have to both agree and disagree. 

 

Such is life. 

[Jingthing]

Everyone in the world should condemn the Polish bill. I doubt they would ban everyone. There goes my spa vacation in Krakow! 

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Jingthing

[johnnyonesock]

the fact that questioning any part of this period in history is illegal and can get you imprisoned in most countries in Europe and many have been speaks volumes

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, johnnyonesock said:

the fact that questioning any part of this period in history is illegal and can get you imprisoned in most countries in Europe and many have been speaks volumes

Most countries? That is a lie and I reckon you know that. 

[Morch]

The "planned" trip and it's cancellation got more to do with scoring points on Israel's political scene.

 

For starters, the trip was not coordinated with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, nor was the Minister of Education sent to Poland as a result of an Israeli government decision. The initial response (later lamely backpedaled) from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs was pretty much "what trip?!". As pointed out on past topics, Israel does not have have full-time Minister of Foreign Affairs (Prime Minister Netanyahu kept that portfolio for himself).

 

The Minister of Education, Bennett, heads the Jewish Home right-wing religious party, and while a member of the coalition, often acts otherwise, in ways which challenge Netanyahu's leadership, cabinet decisions and policies. This is often done in way aimed at making Netanyahu appear soft, undecided, uncommitted, not to say "lefty". The purpose of these ongoing challenges is dual - exerting political pressure to promote right-wing policies, and competing for future votes.

 

This was just another cynical political shenanigan. The Polish reaction was expected, the Minister's own response to the Polish move was probably well rehearsed in advance.

[smew]

Many ethnic groups /nations. collaborated with natzis and polish were one of them, one should take accountability for history as it was.

The only peoples that did not collaborated with fascists were the ones that natzis failed to conquer... it is that simple... and record prove it 

[ilostmypassword]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

The "planned" trip and it's cancellation got more to do with scoring points on Israel's political scene.

 

For starters, the trip was not coordinated with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, nor was the Minister of Education sent to Poland as a result of an Israeli government decision. The initial response (later lamely backpedaled) from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs was pretty much "what trip?!". As pointed out on past topics, Israel does not have have full-time Minister of Foreign Affairs (Prime Minister Netanyahu kept that portfolio for himself).

 

The Minister of Education, Bennett, heads the Jewish Home right-wing religious party, and while a member of the coalition, often acts otherwise, in ways which challenge Netanyahu's leadership, cabinet decisions and policies. This is often done in way aimed at making Netanyahu appear soft, undecided, uncommitted, not to say "lefty". The purpose of these ongoing challenges is dual - exerting political pressure to promote right-wing policies, and competing for future votes.

 

This was just another cynical political shenanigan. The Polish reaction was expected, the Minister's own response to the Polish move was probably well rehearsed in advance.

And it seems to me that for this short-term gain, Netanyahu may be sacrificing the long term interests of Israel vis-a-vis Polish support for Israel in the EU. Unless, of course, this is entirely a pantomime on the part of the Poles as well.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

And it seems to me that for this short-term gain, Netanyahu may be sacrificing the long term interests of Israel vis-a-vis Polish support for Israel in the EU. Unless, of course, this is entirely a pantomime on the part of the Poles as well.

 

I seriously doubt that this was approved by Netanyahu. While he does the short-term gain, long-term lose on many occasions, this instance was his rival's show. Wouldn't be surprised if there's a parallel political game going on the Polish side.

[johnnyonesock]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Most countries? That is a lie and I reckon you know that. 

Austria ,Belgium, Boznia and Herzegovina,Czech Republic, France, Germany. Greece. Hungary, Italy, Liechtenstein, Lithuania,Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland Portugal, Romania ,Russia Slovakia,Spain Switzerland..also Israel .Australia and Canada although the latter two would prosecute you under hate speech laws

 

[ilostmypassword]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Most countries? That is a lie and I reckon you know that. 

He's referring to Holocaust denial.

[greenchair]

How long will the german children and the polish children be forced to suffer for the sins of their ancestors. 

The present day Germans have done nothing wrong, and yet they are continually abused and ridiculed for simply being born in the country of Germany. 

As the article says polish Jews and polish nondews were killed. 

When is it going to end. 

Get over it already. 

[lovelomsak]

11 minutes ago, greenchair said:

How long will the german children and the polish children be forced to suffer for the sins of their ancestors. 

The present day Germans have done nothing wrong, and yet they are continually abused and ridiculed for simply being born in the country of Germany. 

As the article says polish Jews and polish nondews were killed. 

When is it going to end. 

Get over it already. 

I agree with you about the children today are not responsible for history.  Let it die in history books. Today if you are even just white you have to walk on egg shell's when it comes to race issue's of any kind. I want to see it end also tired of being victimized by bullies using the past to politic power.

   In this case though Poland brought it up so who was to blame this time?

Edited February 9, 2018 by lovelomsak

[Jingthing]

I agree with you about the children today are not responsible for history.  Let it die in history books. Today if you are even just white you have to walk on egg shell's when it comes to race issue's of any kind. I want to see it end also tired of being victimized by bullies using the past to politic power.

   In this case though Poland brought it up so who was to blame this time?

The modern issue isn't so much about being white but as rising white right wing hyper nationalist movements in the U.S. and parts of Europe including Poland. These movements are cousins of Nazism. Sometimes explicitly so.

 

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

How long will the german children and the polish children be forced to suffer for the sins of their ancestors. 

The present day Germans have done nothing wrong, and yet they are continually abused and ridiculed for simply being born in the country of Germany. 

As the article says polish Jews and polish nondews were killed. 

When is it going to end. 

Get over it already. 

You're correct insofar as villifying the 99+ percent of Germans and Poles who couldn't possibly have any guilt in regards to WW2. But the Polish Bill isn't about that. It's about making it punishable to hold responsible any Poles who were alive, adult and well at that time.

[lovelomsak]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The modern issue isn't so much about being white but as rising white right wing hyper nationalist movements in the U.S. and parts of Europe including Poland. These movements are cousins of Nazism. Sometimes explicitly so.

 

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

I understand what you are saying but it is not that simple.

  I feel I am not a racist. But a culturist. I grew up in an environment that was what I would call North American home bred culture. I lived in a community where we could live without ever locking a door on our house for years not hours. The keys for our cars were left in the ignition all the time. We had community areas for community functions. women were safe  any man would protect them. Children could play outside safely.

   Last visit back to Canada the house I was staying was burgalarized one night when we were sleeping. That is not the culture that is native to where I was born and lived sorry. But being white when the people were caught could not even bring in to the conversation these thieves were not native to my country  or city.If some one was to ask where were they from I could not answer for fear of race card being thrown in.

  I want the future generations to have the same quality of life. I watch it being destroyed. a person who wants to maintain a decent lifestyle for all. 

  Now  a days it is to easy to call some one rascist and be PC and do more harm than good.

  So yes I believe white now is a burden we are the subject of ridicule and abuse because we let it happen.

  I  hate the nazi's more than you can believe their legacy effects lives like mine in a negative way to this day.

   

 

 

[300sd]

On 2/6/2018 at 6:33 AM, webfact said:

The Polish measure would impose prison sentences of up to three years for mentioning the term "Polish death camps" and for suggesting "publicly and against the facts" that the Polish nation or state was complicit in Nazi Germany's crimes.

Disgusting article. You can't cover the past up with this "measure".  Polish death camp survivors know what was done to them by nazis and poles in Poland. 

[Jingthing]

Very bad law.


"More than 70 years after the end of World War II, the Holocaust remains a testing strip, providing warning signs that should not be ignored, whether in an Eastern European country or a congressional district in Illinois."

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/06/opinions/poland-holocaust-denial-opinion-ghitis/index.html

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[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.  

[xyznot]

Of course the Poles were complicit.  It would have been worse if Poland were a willing ally of Germany like other countries where WWII atrocities occurred.  Would you believe some countries even make tourist attractions out of the atrocity sites.