Looking for IRS help for surviving Thai wife

[chaz2]

Almost fossilized USA expat preparing for journey to the pearly gates is looking for a USA accountant, attorney, or IRS savvy person who can help surviving Thai wife dot the eyes and cross the tees in satisfying IRS and estate executor requirements.  Hopefully in or near Prachuap K.K. or Chumphon Province.  But anyplace in Thailand might be the reality.  Will be grateful for any suggestions..?

[Langsuan Man]

Does she have a TIN ? (taxpayer identification number) if yes, then that is all she needs to be an executor

 

BUT, you have to be a little more specific.  Are you talking about assets in the US or in Thailand or both ?

 

Do you have a Will in Thailand or the US or both ?

 

Answer to these questions will determine exactly what you will need 

[chaz2]

Thanx for the fast reply.  Yes she has a USA ITIN and she is sole beneficiary of my USA will.  Every thing in Thailand is in her name.  Together 10 years, married for 5.  I have always done my own IRS reporting with help of ‘Tax Act‘ and a bit of profanity.  Biggest problem is she is not comfortable with correspondence (writing) in English language and not much interest in learning the USA red tape rituals.  So IRS reporting and disposing of a couple of Schwab stocks will throw her some curves, they have been good payers so don’t want to cash them in right now.  I have already done most of the chores a survivor or estate executor would need to do leaving only the need to sign the correspondences and send them off along with the necessary death certificate etc.  But as I have never gone thru being dead before there might be some things I have missed

[gk10002000]

1 hour ago, chaz2 said:

Thanx for the fast reply.  Yes she has a USA ITIN and she is sole beneficiary of my USA will.  Every thing in Thailand is in her name.  Together 10 years, married for 5.  I have always done my own IRS reporting with help of ‘Tax Act‘ and a bit of profanity.  Biggest problem is she is not comfortable with correspondence (writing) in English language and not much interest in learning the USA red tape rituals.  So IRS reporting and disposing of a couple of Schwab stocks will throw her some curves, they have been good payers so don’t want to cash them in right now.  I have already done most of the chores a survivor or estate executor would need to do leaving only the need to sign the correspondences and send them off along with the necessary death certificate etc.  But as I have never gone thru being dead before there might be some things I have missed

Make sure she is the beneficiary on those Schwab or any other financial accounts.  The will is nice, but things will go much smoother if her name is already the beneficiary in those accounts. Transferring money out of the USA after you are gone might be a bit tricky, just because. Might want to consider opening a joint bank account at Schwab or something like that?

[chaz2]

Yes, Thanx for that.  Have made the Schwab brokerage, IRA, and bank accts into designated beneficiary (pay on death) accts which transfer to her regardless of a will.  Have been selling the less exciting stocks and would like to get the proceeds out of the USA but preferably not at the present exchange rates.  Am just hoping to live long enuf to see that get better.

 

Am trying to streamline everything as much as possible but when knowing nothing about somthing it can be intensely daunting.  Dealing with this kind of stuff is going to be big hurdles for her = the motive for wanting to find somone honest and reliable she will be able to consult with.

 

As an aside, for anyone who doesn’t already know about Schwab’s bank accounts and debit card, it is a good deal.  No fees at all even when outside the country and my debit card purchases have always had better exchange rates than at the banks in the countries where I made the purchases.  I never use my debit card in ATMs but if an ATM has a fee Schwab will refund it.  International wire transfers to a foreign bank is a flat $25 fee no matter the amount and easy to do it as Schwab has a toll free number for Thailand and many other countries.  Plus the transfer is set up to go thru the brokerage account, not the bank acct, so no questions like you get when transferring more than $10,000 from banks.  Maybe the $10,000+ transfers are supposed to be reported anyway but I never have - hope that doesn’t cause repercussions later.

 

A point I have found about debit or credit card purchases is to be cautious that the merchant enters it in the local currency, not converted to the currency of the home country of the card.  Like here I want my debit card receipt to show Thai Baht not converted US dollars because if so I will get a terrible exchange rate.

 

A bit off subject - maybe I have too much free time...

[ballbreaker]

If you don't already know IRS Form 706 will need to be completed and processed by the IRS before anything can be done with the financial accounts.  The IRS will then issue a number of transfer certificates that allow distribution of asset to beneficiary.  The IRS wants to make sure they get any taxes due before distribution.

 

I went through something similar when my Thai wife died after we retired to Thailand.  She still had IRA in the US and we had two joint/survivor financial accounts that we maintained in the US.  Because she was a non US citizen I was required to file Form 706-NA to obtain IRS transfer certificates before her name could be removed from two accounts and distribute IRA lump sum to me.   Its took about 8 months from date of mailing before IRS completed processing and sent me certificates.

 

 

[chaz2]

706-NA.  Thanx bb, another one to study and worry about.  As her name is not on anything in the US right now I hope we can dodge that one as my assets there are held by me alone.  So as being inherited from a US citizen they can be passed even to a non resident non citizen at the higher exemption.  My accounts are in my name alone but her as designated beneficiary so will transfer to her at my death by Schwab canceling them and initiating new accounts in her name.  But do need to file form W-8BEN to show she is a non resident non citizen to avoid some taxes that would apply, and create some that would not apply, to a citizen or resident.  Gratefully, Washington State does not have state income tax so can avoid that little bit of paper work.

 

There are so many potential booby traps lurking around every corner that I appreciate every warning and suggestion about what and where they might be.  It could take forever to get on top of all this and as I don’t have forever am thankful for any piece of advice or caution as will not be around to try to change it later.  Will need to try to get some more info from Schwab for further confirmation about their policy on transferring to a non resident alien.  Wish I had started this a few months earlier, before the market and the exchange rates went AWOL

 

Its also becoming apparent that it might take a long time for her and Uncle Sam to settle everything and no funds available in the meantime.  Technically even joint Thai bank accounts are not supposed to be available until the Thai red rape is cleared away.  She has had the impression all she needs to do is call the monks to come get the stiff and cook it and carry on.  If only it could be that easy

 

[Langsuan Man]

16 hours ago, ballbreaker said:

Its took about 8 months from date of mailing before IRS completed processing and sent me certificates.

I assume that you situation was also aided by having a TIN for her prior to her death

 

What I would like to know, and IRS has failed to answer my query, is can you obtain a TIN in advance of your death ?  with the inheritance being an IRA a TIN will eventually have to be obtained   

 

19 hours ago, chaz2 said:

Have made the Schwab brokerage, IRA, and bank accts into designated beneficiary (pay on death) accts which transfer to her regardless of a will.

 One of he benefits of Schwab is that they take detailed information on your designated beneficiary so that it is in their records, unlike Fidelity, which will only take a name of the beneficiary.  When queried about the differences, Fidelity told me that it was the Executors job to chase down the beneficiary.  Same as USAA told me that the designated beneficiary had to be a USAA Member or eligible to be a USAA member  

[chaz2]

I don’t know what USAA is.  But for us, getting the ITIN was easy other than the long time that IRS and the govt always need for doing anything.  Been a long time so do not remember exact particulars but got ITIN on premiss of wanting to file joint return “claiming foreign wife as a resident for income tax purposes”  Am sure its explained in the Form W-7 instructions.  It possibly helps that I have always filed as a resident, using a US address = required if having a Schwab One acct as my understanding is that Schwab One and the linked checking acct are not available to foreign residents.

[Langsuan Man]

15 hours ago, chaz2 said:

I don’t know what USAA is 

USAA is an insurance company and bank that specializes in providing services to military members past and present and was only cited as an example of how different institutions handle a designated beneficiary 

 

 

 

[ballbreaker]

LM she had a SS number because lived and worked in US.  We always filed joint tax return even when we moved to Thailand until her death.

 

Chaz the way I dealt with my case was contact the three institutions and explain the situation, including my plan for the accounts.  I then asked what they required to make it happen.  Schwab was the most demanding for paper work, perhaps because it was a brokerage account, while the other two were not.

 

[chaz2]

OK, here’s the deal.  Talked more than an hour with Schwab.  Correct toll # no good thru DTAC prepaid as they terminate the call if on hold for a bit while the agent is researching/collecting the answers.  So after 2 restarts rang the toll free brokerage #.  Possibly a better solution would be to get the info thru Schwab’s ‘contact us’ chat site.

 

So, Schwab One Designated Beneficiary Acct which includes funds in Schwab Invester Checking acct = on death the acct is closed and contents swept into a new acct she needs to open in her name.  As a non resident she cannot have a normal Schwab One + Checking.  But she, as a nonresident alien, can have a Schwab One International acct.  No application form for that one on their web site but they have emailed it to me.  If anyone needs it I can send a copy.

 

So, and this applies to me = USA Resident using USA address on my IRS & Schwab accts and wife is a nonresident alien.  If you have been using a foreign address there might be some differences.  On death she needs to send to Schwab:

 

(*) means available on Schwab web site  -  Death Certificate from US Embassy,  *Notarized Affidavit of Domicile,  *Schwab Designated Beneficiary Plan Distribution Authorization Form,  International Schwab One Application Form,  USA Form W-8BEN,  ITIN,  Certified Copy of Passport - I assume that means certified by the Thai passport office.

 

To open Schwab One International acct requires funding of $25000, not sure if means maintained at that or just to open, have not yet read it.  Alternately, she can skip the International Schwab One Application Form, have them close the account, sell all the securities and send a check.  But in that case she will get whatever crap shoot prices that are effective on that day.

 

I will fill in all the forms so that on death she can just sign and date them.  Will do 3 in case somthing goes haywire plus a set of blank copies.  Of course there is the possibility of some of these forms or requirements changing so might check on that from time to time if hanging around this planet longer than I expect to.

Due to the phone wipe outs plus being more than ½ blind and ⅔ senile forgot to ask about the IRA and Schwab Invester Savings acct, so still too doo..  Hope they can be all lumped together for transition with one motion.  And still a need, as originally posted, to locate a US knowledgeable tax service to help her with IRS.  Tax Act and Turbo Tax make it easier but nothing is easy when uninitiated.  And dealing with good old uncle sucker is never a walk in the park at best.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just wanted to say thanks to the OP for starting this topic, and sharing his experiences.

 

This is one I've spent a lot of time thinking about, making some inquiries about, and still not having come to any final conclusions. This is not easy stuff.

 

Basically, I'm wrestling with a different issue that the OP didn't really focus on -- and that's what kind of disposition to arrange for my/our U.S. assets in the event I pass before she does, which would seem likely based on our age difference.

 

In short, I have a modicum of financial knowledge about investing and managing accounts in the U.S.  But I'm afraid my Thai wife doesn't have any of that, not for U.S. assets, and not even for comparable Thai assets. So that leaves the dilemma of what seems like two possible scenarios:

 

1. -- Cash everything out upon my death, and then hand over hopefully a sizeable amount of cash in a single lump sum -- which doesn't seem like a good recipe for assuring my wife's long term financial future in my absence.

 

2. -- Perhaps making some kind of trust arrangement in the U.S. that would allow my current U.S. investments to continue earning income, and then making arrangements via the trust for some amounts of that income to be regularly transferred to the wife. And perhaps also being able to draw down on the principal during her life.

 

Like the OP, I've also designated my wife as the legal beneficiary for my main U.S. accounts with the respective account holding institutions, so hopefully sparing her the U.S. probate process for the most part.

 

But I'd be interested to hear how other U.S. folks among us have made plans for managing the transfer and handling of their U.S. assets in the event of their death.

 

I know and believe my wife has a good heart and good intentions. But somehow, in the wake of my eventual passing, I think dumping a hopefully big pile of cash on her would probably not end well for her personal financial future.

 

 

 

[chaz2]

TJ - Like you say, Thai people do not seem to take much interest in securities like stocks and bonds.  They want somthing they can see and touch like property or gold, especially gold rather than ฿฿.  Possibly a result of experiences like the 1997 crises and other shaky situations.  When I came here the ฿ was a consistent 40 to 42 to the $ even 44.  Right now it is good, for them, but so unstable it rattles up or down several times a day.  And if having a big lump of cash there is often pressure from family and extended family to share it.  Or “barrow” it.

 

Schwab has a trust option but I know nothing about it.  My Grandfather set up an annuity system for my grandmother but that was many years ago so I don’t know the particulars.  I have been selling down my less exciting assets and securities but there are a couple that over the years have gained by such a large factor that selling would result in a lot of tax.  If she inherits them as securities the cost basis becomes what their value is on the day she inherits them, not what I paid for them.  Plus a couple are paying good dividends so if sold that is lost.  But keeping in mind, as I understand it, that as a non resident alien she will pay IRS at 30% on USA dividends but nothing on capitol gains.

 

Wife went to accounting school for a year but not much interested so changed to 4 years of nursing school.  Then same govt nursing job 25 years.  In that time bought a house, 4 building lots, 1,000,000 ฿ in the bank.  So she does manage her money wisely but that one year of accounting school is so far back in the cobwebs its lost.  No affinity for managing accounts where she cannot just walk in and talk to people.  She is not comfortable doing or fallowing paperwork, especially in English language and even more especially ones that are in the U.S.

 

So, the necessity to try to get as much of this done as possible while still having the almost ability to do it, which is melting fast.  And a need to find honest IRS assistance for her.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, chaz2 said:

 And if having a big lump of cash there is often pressure from family and extended family to share it.  Or “barrow” it.

 

Schwab has a trust option but I know nothing about it.

 

That's the part/concern I was alluding to above, in terms of the prospect of, upon my demise, having a windfall lump sum land in my wife's lap/pocket.

 

I do think it would be worth pursuing with Schwab their trust options, and that means not just talking with their front line phone support staff, but the actual people in their Trust Department.

 

I'd be skeptical of any farang financial folks to be found here in Thailand. But the challenge in the U.S. is finding folks who not only can handle the U.S. end/IRS etc appropriately, but also be attuned to the international/non-resident/moving money abroad issues.

 

The worrisome part for me is while my wife has a good professional job with a pretty good salary, she's shown absolutely zero interest in personal money management. Doesn't even want to pay bills via Thai bank online banking. She gives them to me to pay for her. Doesn't understand stocks and investing at all.... And I'm not sure I have the ability to change that for her, even given hopefully a lot of years and time ahead in my case.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[chaz2]

"I'd be skeptical of any farang financial folks to be found here in Thailand. But the challenge in the U.S. is finding folks who not only can handle the U.S. end/IRS etc appropriately, but also be attuned to the international/non-resident/moving money abroad issues."

 

You have said it exactly the way it is.  In the thread I mention below a lady, NancyL, Posted October 11, 2017,  “In Chiang Mai, I'd recommend Lanna Lawyers.  They have an American and Aussie lawyer on staff who work with their Thai lawyers, so communication isn't a problem.  They have a "special package" where they offer a set price for a Final Will, Power of Attorney and Advance Directive (Living Will).  These are three important documents that everyone should have.”

 

I’m not looking for a ‘special package’ nor wanting to just put everything in somone’s hands but a bit of simple informed advice could be helpful now and most likely essential later.  Have encouraged her to look for a blog in Thai language similar to this one in hope of finding somone who has been thru this but she is slow to see any importance.

A lot of us have been waltzing around this subject and its dilemmas for a long time with more procrastination than action.  To give credit where credit is due I found a lot of good information and inspiration to act on it in this thread, 

Lots of good info and points to ponder there but it did become a really long one to sift thru.

 

 

Our dog has a pretty good life.  Enuf food, comfortable place to sleep, doesn’t worry about tomorrow, probably remembers very little about yesterday = no worries and his tail is always wagging.  But we consider our life’s conveniences so important that our worries dominate us.    And as you can see, I am still having trouble with links and quotes