Trump offshore oil drilling plan draws protest in California

[sirineou]

On 2/9/2018 at 4:13 AM, FreddieRoyle said:

quote "In fact, California has passed laws pushing towards zero emission automobiles."

 

Not sure if you are joking or not? There is no such thing as a zero emission vehicle. Electric vehicles use electricity that is generated by burning fossil fuels, or even worse by wind turbines which cost an arm and a leg to make and will never pay back their cost, or solar energy using expensive solar panels which of course used huge amounts of fossil fuels to make etc. It is all very well trying to look virtuous and green, but let's be realistic. The Californians have swallowed the green mantra and it is very silly(and not helping the planet one iota).

Trump, once again, is absolutely correct.

 

 You are showing the same critical thinking skills that compel you to support Trump!

He said "pushing towards zero emission automobiles."  the operative phrase being "pushing towards" he did not say "zero emissions" . 

I don't think there is anyone with half a brain that would argue that California is not the leading state in the union as far as vehicular emissions are concerned. But I would argue that expecting half a brain from a Trump supporter would be way too much.

[GOLDBUGGY]

17 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Keep up. Fracking has allowed the US to be an exporter of fuel now. I think it only imports about 30% of needs now.

Well actually 60% of the Oil they use daily in the USA today comes from the outside of the US. As I said from Canada, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Venezula, and Nigeria. In that order! But again what is your point? That at a higher cost and price the US wouldn't need to Import Oil at all?

 

You could say that about the USA and everything else, from Running Shoes to Washing machines and TV's. But are the American People willing to pay a triple price to buy Running Shoes or a TV now, which may not be of the same good quality they had before, just because it was made in America? I beleive the answer is No!

 

So why Frac for Oil when it is more expensive they buying it from Saudi Arabia and shipped by Tanker Ship to the Refinery in Texas? A day like that may come in the future but not today. The Oil is still sitting in the ground and it isn't going anywhere for awhile.    

[GOLDBUGGY]

35 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I agree, and I try not to buy anything made in China- it's junk anyway, but as almost everything is made there now, it's difficult not to.

Not sure if you are old enough, but I remember a time when we all used to say that about products that came from Japan to. 

[GOLDBUGGY]

32 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Of course you can. An American average sized car is a large car elsewhere, and going by the car shows everyone WANTS to buy cars with really big motors. Those SUVs are LARGE cars.

Who actually needs to drive a Hummer as an everyday car?

Well I would guess a person who has a lot of money and can afford a Hummer would buy one? Which there seems to be alot of those People in Califonia, who are rich. But it also seems like people are like this everywhere, and not just California.

 

But then with the price of fuel, who would buy a Lamborghini which has a 12 Cylinder Engine and has about 740 Horse Power behind that engine? Maybe somebody Rich also? Jay Leno has 169 cars and 117 motorcycles and he lives in California. What can you say about that?

[thaibeachlovers]

11 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Not sure if you are old enough, but I remember a time when we all used to say that about products that came from Japan to. 

Indeed I do, and it was.

If things go the same way we can expect quality products from China in about 20 years time.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Well I would guess a person who has a lot of money and can afford a Hummer would buy one? Which there seems to be alot of those People in Califonia, who are rich. But it also seems like people are like this everywhere, and not just California.

 

But then with the price of fuel, who would buy a Lamborghini which has a 12 Cylinder Engine and has about 740 Horse Power behind that engine? Maybe somebody Rich also? Jay Leno has 169 cars and 117 motorcycles and he lives in California. What can you say about that?

Jay Leno has too much money and wasn't funny.

[sirineou]

41 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I guess the point is if one doesn't want to allow oil extraction in one's state, then one should be using something other than oil to power one's life style. Apparently though, Californians are quite happy to have someone else's state polluted so that they can drive cars on oil. 

Perhaps the federal government should agree to not allow offshore drilling in exchange for California paying a 500% tax on all oil based products entering the state. That sounds fair to me.

 A false dichotomy 

They do not protest oil extraction from their state , they protest of shore oil production.

 

You said:"Apparently though, Californians are quite happy to have someone else's state polluted so that they can drive cars on oil.   "

On 2/8/2018 at 6:47 PM, webfact said:

“Secretary Zinke looks forward to meeting with more Governors and other coastal representatives

so apparently they are not "happy to have someone else's state polluted "

 

You said: "Perhaps the federal government should agree to not allow offshore drilling in exchange for California paying a 500% tax on all oil based products entering the state. "

 

Is that the deal the Trump made with Florida to let them opt out of off shore drilling??

[GOLDBUGGY]

24 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Of course I have. I worked there for 10 years.

People use it because it's too expensive to park a car, unless it's outside their house. Even Californian cities could do the same.

I wonder how many people drive in New York City? But I am also sure many people who live in L.A. don't have cars either. But I do agree that cities in California could do that also, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are not doing it right now. I am sure parking is not cheap in L.A. Central either. 

 

The ones I met at the Refinery near L.A. all had cars, but for a good reason. They couldn't afford to live in L.A. Center as it was too expensive for them to own or rent there. Even when they all made good wages. So they lived outside of the city and had to drive longer distances to work. thus needing a car. Most also Car Pooled.  

[GOLDBUGGY]

18 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Indeed I do, and it was.

If things go the same way we can expect quality products from China in about 20 years time.

Yeah! Where to next I wonder?

[GOLDBUGGY]

18 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Jay Leno has too much money and wasn't funny.

Yeah! I didn't think he was so funny either. But Johnny Carson playing the Wizzard and reading the future answer to a question was priceless though. 

[sirineou]

 For those who don't understand the issue, It is not the extraction of oil that is the problem, it is the extraction of oil from environmentally sensitive areas.

As "easy" oil  is being depleted, expect to see this to become more and more an issue.

Big oil has invested a lot in the current fossil fuel energy infrastructure, and they will not give it up without a fight.Even if they are to win only 10% of the time, it means extending their profits by 10%, and given the size of the market. 10% is a lot of money.

 This Planet is awash on energy, there is so much energy that hits and is stored in our planet, that it threatens our very own existence. Wind threatens to tear our roofs off, Sun to burn us, waves to drown as. etc.

The technology is there to convert this energy to usable form, all that remains is the political will .

     I don't blame the oil companies from trying to extract every last profit from their business model, If they didn't  they would be negligent to their stockholders. That's their business.

They will muddy the waters , They will offer false narratives, try to discredit that which is obvious.  Divide us and let as do their dirty work.

 What is our business? ...................

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Even when they all made good wages. So they lived outside of the city and had to drive longer distances to work. thus needing a car. Most also Car Pooled.  

Me too in London except I used the public transport and not a car.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, sirineou said:

 For those who don't understand the issue, It is not the extraction of oil that is the problem, it is the extraction of oil from environmentally sensitive areas.

As "easy" oil  is being depleted, expect to see this to become more and more an issue.

Big oil has invested a lot in the current fossil fuel energy infrastructure, and they will not give it up without a fight.Even if they are to win only 10% of the time, it means extending their profits by 10%, and given the size of the market. 10% is a lot of money.

 This Planet is awash on energy, there is so much energy that hits and is stored in our planet, that it threatens our very own existence. Wind threatens to tear our roofs off, Sun to burn us, waves to drown as. etc.

The technology is there to convert this energy to usable form, all that remains is the political will .

     I don't blame the oil companies from trying to extract every last profit from their business model, If they didn't  they would be negligent to their stockholders. That's their business.

They will muddy the waters , They will offer false narratives, try to discredit that which is obvious.  Divide us and let as do their dirty work.

 What is our business? ...................

Let's face it. Big Oil has the politicians of both parties in their pocket. As long as they do it will be business as usual. If the voters of America continue to vote for the same corrupt politicians nothing will change. The answer lies with them. There is no point California voters re electing the same crooks for decades and expecting anything to change. 

There used to be a law that oil could not be exported, but the crooks in congress changed that so it could be. If America kept all it's oil it wouldn't need to drill in the sea. Alaska  has loads of the stuff, but people won't let them drill there, so they drill in the sea instead.

Self inflicted wounds all round.

 

If people don't want drilling in the sea, elect decent politicians, ban oil exports, ban large engines in cars, subsidise a proper public transport system so people don't need cars, build nuclear power plants and stop burning oil so people can use AC, ban oil for heating in cities.

Dozens of things could be done, but none will because the American political system is corrupt.

 

Up to the voters though- either use the vote to elect the best people or at least stop whining when they do elect crooks.

[AlphaSoiDog]

Up to the voters?

 

Fun fact. 0.2% of the US people choose the candidates. Then the rest of the population can choose whichever ones out of the selection that they want. "Democracy in action" when the extremely rich have control.

 

While this paradigm is in place then whatever the "unwashed masses" vote for will have very little relevance. ( quote from neo liberalists about 250 years when this was thought up ).

 

 

[AlphaSoiDog]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Let's face it. Big Oil has the politicians of both parties in their pocket. As long as they do it will be business as usual. If the voters of America continue to vote for the same corrupt politicians nothing will change. The answer lies with them. There is no point California voters re electing the same crooks for decades and expecting anything to change. 

There used to be a law that oil could not be exported, but the crooks in congress changed that so it could be. If America kept all it's oil it wouldn't need to drill in the sea. Alaska  has loads of the stuff, but people won't let them drill there, so they drill in the sea instead.

Self inflicted wounds all round.

 

If people don't want drilling in the sea, elect decent politicians, ban oil exports, ban large engines in cars, subsidise a proper public transport system so people don't need cars, build nuclear power plants and stop burning oil so people can use AC, ban oil for heating in cities.

Dozens of things could be done, but none will because the American political system is corrupt.

 

Up to the voters though- either use the vote to elect the best people or at least stop whining when they do elect crooks.

 

A few good points in here. Though several that I'd disagree with.

 

One is that drilling was attempted previously in Alaska and a very big mess was made. So big that it was banned. From what I hear Alaskans are extremely unimpressed with Trump's decision.

 

The other biggest one being the nuclear power stations. Nuclear doesn't pay for itself even over the expected 40yr amortisation period. That is including the massive subsidies and tax breaks they get. AND the public paying for nearly all of the cleanups.

 

Then when they are finished with the radioactive hell hole? They walk away and let the public pay again.

 

To a lesser degree this applies to coal generation as well.

 

Wind energy has been cheap for a long time. Solar has dropped so much in price over even the last 3 years that it is clearly not sensible to build power plants that require many decades of subsidised expensive power to possibly break even. It made sense in the '50's with few alternatives. Not any more.

 

For the naysayers: Yes, solar and wind have their own unique technical difficulties. They also have enormous benefits. Even at the current price point the difficulties are fairly easily surmountable, and markedly easier with every year.

 

The biggest part of the 0.2% that put Trump in as a candidate was the fossil fuel industry. No surprise that Trump has just put the brakes on solar power in the US with a 30% tax plus even more tax breaks for fossil fuels.

 

At this rate the US will still be burning fossil fuels when the rest of the world has moved on.

 

 

 

 

[sirineou]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Let's face it. Big Oil has the politicians of both parties in their pocket. As long as they do it will be business as usual. If the voters of America continue to vote for the same corrupt politicians nothing will change. The answer lies with them. There is no point California voters re electing the same crooks for decades and expecting anything to change. 

There used to be a law that oil could not be exported, but the crooks in congress changed that so it could be. If America kept all it's oil it wouldn't need to drill in the sea. Alaska  has loads of the stuff, but people won't let them drill there, so they drill in the sea instead.

Self inflicted wounds all round.

 

If people don't want drilling in the sea, elect decent politicians, ban oil exports, ban large engines in cars, subsidise a proper public transport system so people don't need cars, build nuclear power plants and stop burning oil so people can use AC, ban oil for heating in cities.

Dozens of things could be done, but none will because the American political system is corrupt.

 

Up to the voters though- either use the vote to elect the best people or at least stop whining when they do elect crooks.

 Spot on!!

But I don't think it is so much the people . though they deserve their share of the blame , as it is the election finance system.

Campaigns last too long and require huge amounts of money.

Citizens united desision

Electoral college

voting taking place on a work day

You can add your own list, all designed to subvert the will of the people. 

1 hour ago, AlphaSoiDog said:

Up to the voters?

 

Fun fact. 0.2% of the US people choose the candidates. Then the rest of the population can choose whichever ones out of the selection that they want. "Democracy in action" when the extremely rich have control.

 

While this paradigm is in place then whatever the "unwashed masses" vote for will have very little relevance. ( quote from neo liberalists about 250 years when this was thought up ).

 

 

Absolutely right. The primary process where candidates are chosen is flawed.

My Next door neighbor (her mom was a well known politician in county politics all her life) run in the primary  for county legislator ,of a predominantly republican county in Up-state NY. 

Won! where the total vote was a couple of thousand.

Being that the county is predominantly Republican she won in the General. (most people that voted only show the R next to her name) and wee familiar with the last name.

I know her for over 20 years, very nice lady, we are close friends, in and out of eachothers house, But the girl is totally unqualified for the job, and that's being kind to her.

Look what happened in the last presidential election,

  Were they the best the country had to offer? What choice did the people have, The least of two evils?