Arsenal

[SantiSuk]

RVP won't sign a new deal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/18712651

Good on him! I agree with him that the club is not being run in the right direction and it's best he should leave. So should any other player who wants to get a trophy and can attract a megarich club (2 in Spain, 1 in France, 1 in Germany, 3 in the UK). Rather than slagging him off Arsenal fans should think carefully about what this says about the club's direction, ownership and management.

The board has clearly taken a deliberate decision not follow the megarich club route with expensive signings and high wages. This means we will not have trophys for a few seasons (fuc_kwit cup excluded) until either:

- the megarich clubs fail and the model is discredited, or

- regulation to limit wages and transfer fees by one means or another (such as the proposed break-even rules or whatever they are called) becomes effective

- the above fail and the club starts really going downhill (fan support, rather than finances) such that a change of ownership takes place.

It is clear to me that Wenger is not the entire problem - indeed he is possibly the best manager to make the best of an 'underfunded team' (by world class standards). That is a fairly charitable view though; my biggest complaint is that he has bought so many duds and appears incapable of selling the vision to the non-duds. I doubt that we will ever know, until he goes, the extent to which he agrees with the policy. If he fundamentally disagrees I would have thought he would have already resigned.

I do not agree with the Arsenal board's approach and think it will fail. Either that or there will be a megarich takeover in fairly short order (maybe that is their long game). Looks like we are in for a few lean years making the best of a handful of £12 million signings each year and a siphoning off of any great talents that emerge.

4 players of the team that looked headed for glory have now chosen the exits in 18 months. I suspect more will follow - Sagna, Willshere and Walcott are capable of getting into the world class team squads, if not necessarily their first teams.

In any other industry the customers and minority shareholders would be calling on the board for an explanation of the crisis and the vision for the future. Fat chance with a football club and particularly the mushroom-feeding mentality of Arsenal.

[SantiSuk]

So, given that he wants out, where do you guys think he will end up? Amongst the 6 megarich clubs (above) which one is in clear need of his services and is he a supremely better prospect than, or a replacement in a partnership for Dzecko/Aguero, Wellbeck/Rooney, Torres/Sturridge, Higauin/Benzema, David/Llorentes, Gomez/Riberry, Menez/? One has to put money on Man City. The no-sale-to-competitors approach is not one Wenger has insisted on in the past and I strongly agree with him on that.

With only one year left on his contract I don't think we are talking megabucks here. RvP's age (28) may give the wallet-itchy a pause for concern. His relatively poor end to the season and dire world cup has cut his worth by 25% ish. And it's a fire-sale - maybe 25m tops.

I just pray that Arsenal don't try to run him out of contract. I can't believe a club that has demonstrated supreme financial nous over recent years would make that mistake.

Edited July 5, 2012 by SantiSuk

[Abrak]

Personally I think that RVP's disagreement with 'the direction that Arsenal is heading and its ambition' is just <deleted>. The reality is that he is renegotiating his contract and is wanting a far 'larger' one than Arsenal are willing to offer and a 'longer' one than Arsenal are willing to offer and it is perfectly clear that Arsenal are not willing to match his own financial ambition.

My guess is that he was tapped up by City months ago with a 200,000+ 4 year deal. Given the size of that deal, that there is only a year left on his current contract and he has no resale value after his next contract, Arsenal will be lucky to get 20m for RVP.

[rijit]

Santi,You say the club , by letting him run down his contract are making a mistake?, are they? they cant sell him if he doesn't want to go, What ever is said at the end of the day he has to sign the contract, the power as well discussed is in the hands of the player..The only way of balancing the power out is to get 'tough' say well ure not part of our long term plans, spend the next year in the reserves,. Would they? or would any club, I'm not sure, but IMO, a club should at least once, make a stand try and level the playin field out a bit, but there could well be ramifications, btu hey it's difficult. And 25 mil, for a 28/9player aug birthday, sounds mega buc's 15 sounds more like it, but reading between the lines, him going in to a meeting about his future and not discussing new terms, yeah right,,sounds like, after wenger saying he's gonna honour his contract, he's gonna run his contract out and get ALL the cash himself.

Edited July 5, 2012 by rijit

[StevieH]

My guess is that he was tapped up by City months ago with a 200,000+ 4 year deal. Given the size of that deal, that there is only a year left on his current contract and he has no resale value after his next contract, Arsenal will be lucky to get 20m for RVP.

reckon you're dead right here. also reckon the transfer fee will be something like 15m GBP. city are rather beginning to get on my tits.

[JacknDanny]

My guess is that he was tapped up by City months ago with a 200,000+ 4 year deal. Given the size of that deal, that there is only a year left on his current contract and he has no resale value after his next contract, Arsenal will be lucky to get 20m for RVP.

reckon you're dead right here. also reckon the transfer fee will be something like 15m GBP. city are rather beginning to get on my tits.

Why are city getting on your tits, Steve?

Because they have 'maybe' tapped up a player?? Every team does that!! Including yours!!!!

Because they are redressing the power of the previous big 4??

Because they have money???

They have not been throwing money around lie they did last year!!! They will need to sell first b4 they buy. Remember the financial restictions placed on clubs now?

Just jealousy Steve because your club at the moment cannot even appeal to average Icelandic players!!

[smokie36]

My guess is that he was tapped up by City months ago with a 200,000+ 4 year deal. Given the size of that deal, that there is only a year left on his current contract and he has no resale value after his next contract, Arsenal will be lucky to get 20m for RVP.

reckon you're dead right here. also reckon the transfer fee will be something like 15m GBP. city are rather beginning to get on my tits.

Why are city getting on your tits, Steve?

Because they have 'maybe' tapped up a player?? Every team does that!! Including yours!!!!

Because they are redressing the power of the previous big 4??

Because they have money???

They have not been throwing money around lie they did last year!!! They will need to sell first b4 they buy. Remember the financial restictions placed on clubs now?

Just jealousy Steve because your club at the moment cannot even appeal to average Icelandic players!!

Haha......less of the average pal or I'll send carmine over to the Citeh thread...

[Abrak]

In any other industry the customers and minority shareholders would be calling on the board for an explanation of the crisis and the vision for the future. Fat chance with a football club and particularly the mushroom-feeding mentality of Arsenal.

I am sure that supporters would like the club to spend its last available penny competing with the likes of City to win the title. I very much doubt minority shareholders would complain afterall the value of their shares have risen at least 10 fold over the last 10 years.

You seem to dismiss a strategy of Arsenal competing with the likes of City when say FFP bites (even to a limited extent) and they are forced to reduced spending. (Especially as this will be at a time when Arsenal will have more resources due to the renegotiation of your commercial contracts in 2014.)

The fact is that City's effective cost of capital is zero at present and their resources are virtually unlimited. Now if you wish to throw capital at that equation on the basis that you can win without losing just bear in mind that you have to be inherently stupid.

[carmine]

My guess is that he was tapped up by City months ago with a 200,000+ 4 year deal. Given the size of that deal, that there is only a year left on his current contract and he has no resale value after his next contract, Arsenal will be lucky to get 20m for RVP.

reckon you're dead right here. also reckon the transfer fee will be something like 15m GBP. city are rather beginning to get on my tits.

Why are city getting on your tits, Steve?

Because they have 'maybe' tapped up a player?? Every team does that!! Including yours!!!!

Because they are redressing the power of the previous big 4??

Because they have money???

They have not been throwing money around lie they did last year!!! They will need to sell first b4 they buy. Remember the financial restictions placed on clubs now?

Just jealousy Steve because your club at the moment cannot even appeal to average Icelandic players!!

Haha......less of the average pal or I'll send carmine over to the Citeh thread...

No need. 7 goals from the midfield in his 19 games for Swansea is not average. He is a young excellent prospect that i am delighted we have signed. No need to get in a pissing contest smokes over one silly statement.

Vertoghen very soon now btw....

[StevieH]

Why are city getting on your tits, Steve?

Because they have 'maybe' tapped up a player?? Every team does that!! Including yours!!!!

Because they are redressing the power of the previous big 4??

Because they have money???

They have not been throwing money around lie they did last year!!! They will need to sell first b4 they buy. Remember the financial restictions placed on clubs now?

Just jealousy Steve because your club at the moment cannot even appeal to average Icelandic players!!

because they're becoming chelsea jack. city were never an arrogant club but they appear to be becoming one. just acquiring players to stop other clubs getting them. lashing money about relentlessly. having 20m players out on loan and replacing them with 25m players. throwing fuc_king disgusting wages at players. you know, the stuff that people don't like chelsea for.

sell before they buy. yeah, right. FFP will be utterly worthless i have absolutely no doubt. there will be loopholes galore.

[SantiSuk]

So we either have City to buy him now, or vP to work out his contract to up his own ante. I hope it's the former (for one thing unlike probably most Arsenal fans I like to see former players playing in the EPL), but if it's the latter then it would be foolish to cut off one's nose to spite the face. Play him I say, but drop him if he doesn't pull his weight. If it is the latter then I would think a lot less of him and the claims that he wants to move just for trophies would be exposed as the bollux that rijit suspects.

I think he's too old and physically suspect to risk having a wasted year at Arsenal just for some more spondoolicks.

[yermanee]

So RVP does not renew his contract. Good luck to him he’ll need it.

And the British tabloids will be having a field day.

Anyway that’s what modern sports have become. Money, money.... decadence…..etc…. .

Whatever happened to loyalty, camaraderie, team spirit?

Anyway just read the following on “ untold arsenal ” by Phil Gregory and wholeheartedly agree with him, just thought I would share :

“A big name or big money signing to replace Robin is of no interest to me, by the way. Transfer fee has no relation to quality, neither does reputation. Let’s judge whoever Wenger brings in to replace Robin on their merits, rather than some preconceived notion based on some plonker in the paper’s view and what we’ve seen on youtube.”

Yermanee

[Abrak]

So we either have City to buy him now, or vP to work out his contract to up his own ante.

Personally I dont think he is trying to stay to up his own ante on a free. Quite the opposite, I think his little temper tantrum is aimed at forcing a move now and make his position at Arsenal untenable. I suspect he is agitating for a move because he knows that City is not going to offer a high transfer fee (maybe 20m or 15m).

I also think he knows that even as a free agent in a year he isnt going to get a better contract. At almost 30 he it is likely to be 3 years and it is unlikely to be more than the 200k+ he has on offer from City already. (And imbetween he would have to honour his 70k contract.) His biggest risk is injury - he has just played 38 league games, 10 games more than his best previous season. If he moves he can hope that his back will improve as he will not have to carry the weight of Arsenal's expectations but it is a risk. Basically though he is agitating a move so that City can pay a low transfer fee and pay a high contract price to him.

[SantiSuk]

So we either have City to buy him now, or vP to work out his contract to up his own ante.

Personally I dont think he is trying to stay to up his own ante on a free. Quite the opposite, I think his little temper tantrum is aimed at forcing a move now and make his position at Arsenal untenable. I suspect he is agitating for a move because he knows that City is not going to offer a high transfer fee (maybe 20m or 15m).

I also think he knows that even as a free agent in a year he isnt going to get a better contract. At almost 30 he it is likely to be 3 years and it is unlikely to be more than the 200k+ he has on offer from City already. (And imbetween he would have to honour his 70k contract.) His biggest risk is injury - he has just played 38 league games, 10 games more than his best previous season. If he moves he can hope that his back will improve as he will not have to carry the weight of Arsenal's expectations but it is a risk. Basically though he is agitating a move so that City can pay a low transfer fee and pay a high contract price to him.

We can all have our pet theories and the beauty of it is we will never really know! That's football.

Not much point in ranting about RvP's personal characteristics Yermanee, other than to bemoan the generality of hired guns in football. After all Koln and Montpelier will feel just as aggrieved towards Podolski and Giroud - our two new hired guns - and money-bags Arsenal .

Giroud up front with Podolski and Gervinho/Walcott cutting in behind from the wings or inside left and inside right (Gervinho can play right) should be an acceptable strike force as long as Wenger can get the midfield sorted to supply them. Has to be Ramsey at front of midfield until Willshere gets back - I wonder if Wenger might keep Benayoun until Christmas. Arteta just behind and Song as def-mid. I'm also looking forward to seeing what Diaby has to offer in a season hoepfully clean of injuries.

My slight concern about Podolski is that my sister in Koln says that Podolski has been a bit disappointing most of last season and she thinks we might have bought a pup. Let's hope he's just waiting to play in a good team rather than languishing at the bottom of the Bundesliga. He was pretty ok for Germany's group games at the Euros (official MotM for the Netherlands game), but then seemed to disappear a bit from view (and ultimately the team).

[rijit]

I think your sister might be slightly 'confused' santi, Koln had a poor season getting relegated , but he scored 18 in 29 starts, which in a poor? team one has to say is outstanding. Nope, mate no doubts the boys a top draw footballer.

[yermanee]

Not much point in ranting about RvP's personal characteristics Yermanee, other than to bemoan the generality of hired guns in football. After all Koln and Montpelier will feel just as aggrieved towards Podolski and Giroud - our two new hired guns - and money-bags Arsenal .

I think you misunderstood me, must be my English.

I don't think I'm ranting about RVP in person, nor about players going for the money instead of for loyalty to a team.

I'm ranting about the fact that they all come up with the same lame excuses i.e. " I love the club and the supporters but I'm leaving for trophies " and the media is all to keen on jumping on their statements to prove once again that Wenger got it wrong again.

If these trophy hunters just had the honesty to say their going for a better deal money-wise.

In 20 years time nobody is going to remember these trophies (if they get any) but many are going to remember they betrayed the club.

I don't know how many games RVP played for Arsenal where he made a difference, but I sure know that Arsenal made a big difference in his career, nursing him through 7 seasons with one injury after the other, giving him the best possible medical care and meanwhile paying him a fortune compared to many - many others and then stating he gave his all for the club that he's leaving just as his form is peaking.

Nevertheless I wish him well but I don't think he will ever get a statue at the Emirates.

Rant over.

Yermanee

Edited July 6, 2012 by yermanee

[devilish]

To ask V. Persie to remember what Arsenal did for him (injuries) and ask for his loyalty is kind of unreasonable for a highly skilled, modern football player. If he can get a better deal while winning at a different club, then why wouldn't he leave Arsenal for that ? ? ? I think Loyalty has a price, a high price in the case of RVP.

He definitely comes off as being "bigger than the club." I'm glad we signed Podolski and Giroud. They both can provide goals for the team and maybe a different type of style up front on offense. As well, if a number of our older players can find good form this season, that can help, too.

[smokie36]

I'm happy to see you buying mid table mediocrity too.

Long may it continue!

[SantiSuk]

I'm happy to see you buying mid table mediocrity too.

Long may it continue!

Bah!

Time will tell but Im hoping that Podolski and Giroud are just very good buys, not mediocre as 12 million quid apiece would suggest. I would agree that Gervinho turned out to be mediocre at 12m though.

[smokie36]

The like was for the Gervinho comment, naturally enough.

[yermanee]

I'm happy to see you buying mid table mediocrity too.

Long may it continue!

Bah!

Time will tell but Im hoping that Podolski and Giroud are just very good buys, not mediocre as 12 million quid apiece would suggest. I would agree that Gervinho turned out to be mediocre at 12m though.

I think we haven't seen the best of Gervinho yet. How many years before Walcott began to become more than an occasional impact player ?

Yermanee

[alfieconn]

I'm happy to see you buying mid table mediocrity too.

Long may it continue!

Bah!

Time will tell but Im hoping that Podolski and Giroud are just very good buys, not mediocre as 12 million quid apiece would suggest. I would agree that Gervinho turned out to be mediocre at 12m though.

Hav'nt you heard on this thread of the old saying " you only get what you pay for" except in exceptional circumstances

[2unique]

I'm happy to see you buying mid table mediocrity too.

Long may it continue!

Bah!

Time will tell but Im hoping that Podolski and Giroud are just very good buys, not mediocre as 12 million quid apiece would suggest. I would agree that Gervinho turned out to be mediocre at 12m though.

Hav'nt you heard on this thread of the old saying " you only get what you pay for" except in exceptional circumstances

For every Reyes there's an Anelka, and for every Wiltord there's an 'Enry .. I'd keep RvP until Giroud and Podolski bed in but be secretly planning to offload in January when someone (Chelsk, City, Utd perhaps) will be looking to buy goals for the Title run in...

[StevieH]

wiltord was a good player for arsenal.

[SantiSuk]

I think we haven't seen the best of Gervinho yet. How many years before Walcott began to become more than an occasional impact player ?

Yermanee

Hope you are right - still only 25 but Arsenal only get ¾ of a season from him and he appeared to go off the boil after the African Cup of Nations. Well know at the star of the season how Wenger thinks he is shaping up. Starter or rotation/benchman?

[SantiSuk]

Bah!

Time will tell but Im hoping that Podolski and Giroud are just very good buys, not mediocre as 12 million quid apiece would suggest. I would agree that Gervinho turned out to be mediocre at 12m though.

Hav'nt you heard on this thread of the old saying " you only get what you pay for" except in exceptional circumstances

Im hoping for exceptions - like the Ox - 12m quid 11 months ago.

[2unique]

wiltord was a good player for arsenal.

Granted but looking at it as a cost vs talent comparison. Both Reyes and Wiltord were good players that Wenger paid over the odds for to get his man but in retrospect you couldn't use them to justify him going out this summer and doing so looking back at a mix of his buys through his time at the club.

Never saw what Wenger saw in Gervinho particularly his finishing but if he can get an end product on his wing play then he could be better than Theo.

Sent from Android, please excuse errors in type or judgement.

[SantiSuk]

Weekend press rumours - usual stuff, probably made up.

Man City will start vp bidding at £15m, but Wenger will sell to Juve or hold him to contract. I hope not, emotion ruling the finances. Will be surprised if Kroenke allows it. I hope Wenger is a realist and is not so embittered that he believes we are in serious competition with City for vPs useful life (2-3 years?). Surely he knows the board's strategy aims us squarely at slot 3-5 with a hope that FairPlay bites properly and eventually levels playing fields - could take 5 years plus as 'opening stock' advantage wears down slowly. OK - I'll relent a little and excuse him a little som nam na if he loses £5m on the price difference and stuffs him in the Italian League (have you seen those Italian crowds these days - they make as much noise as the Library of course, but many of the away games will be down to sub 20,000). Not that I hold anything against vP, but he has to try and stop this rot somehow given that we are where we are on board strategy. vP has gone for maximum financial gain so we have every right to show the others such decisions might not all be personal good news.

Looking at Lewandowski (aren't they all)

Looking at Moses as replacement for Walcott (unlikley to pay above other clubs). I tend to the view that we sell anybody who doesn't want to be at the Emirates sooner rather than later and bring in players who want to play CL football - Chelsea, Man City and Man U can't buy them all!

The most important and authoritative bit of journo (cos it has Wenger quotes, even though it's the Sun) confirms that the board's strategy is fully that of Wenger's

'Cruyff believes you can still be successful [at winning the Champions League] using a good youth set-up and by recruiting talented young players. Gunners boss Wenger said: “I totally agree with Cruyff — and I won’t change. “The only sad thing is that sometimes your work is destroyed by others".' "I won't buy big" is the banner headline. I don't see him saying that but I agree it's a fair extrapolation.

The whole article is an interesting read and I come away convinced that the man has totally laudible principles and is totally and hopelessly deluded in thinking that today's environment is the same as Cruyff's environment.

SNAFU at Arsenal, but should be an interesting ride. With the board's backing I cannot make my usual prediction that he will be gone by the end of the season, but I suspect there might be some very significant fan turbulence against the whole set-up this year. I hope we can at least manage to continue to play watchable football.

Edit: switch the last sentence around a bit will ya - it's Wenger not me that has the Board's backing :-)

Edited July 9, 2012 by SantiSuk

[JacknDanny]

I think this article has some fair points in it.

I applaud what Wenger is trying to do, but it just wont work in the current climate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2170609/Arsene-Wengers-taste-medicine--Martin-Samuel.html

[nev]

Weekend press rumours - usual stuff, probably made up.

Man City will start vp bidding at £15m, but Wenger will sell to Juve or hold him to contract. I hope not, emotion ruling the finances. Will be surprised if Kroenke allows it. I hope Wenger is a realist and is not so embittered that he believes we are in serious competition with City for vPs useful life (2-3 years?). Surely he knows the board's strategy aims us squarely at slot 3-5 with a hope that FairPlay bites properly and eventually levels playing fields - could take 5 years plus as 'opening stock' advantage wears down slowly. OK - I'll relent a little and excuse him a little som nam na if he loses £5m on the price difference and stuffs him in the Italian League (have you seen those Italian crowds these days - they make as much noise as the Library of course, but many of the away games will be down to sub 20,000). Not that I hold anything against vP, but he has to try and stop this rot somehow given that we are where we are on board strategy. vP has gone for maximum financial gain so we have every right to show the others such decisions might not all be personal good news.

Looking at Lewandowski (aren't they all)

Looking at Moses as replacement for Walcott (unlikley to pay above other clubs). I tend to the view that we sell anybody who doesn't want to be at the Emirates sooner rather than later and bring in players who want to play CL football - Chelsea, Man City and Man U can't buy them all!

The most important and authoritative bit of journo (cos it has Wenger quotes, even though it's the Sun) confirms that the board's strategy is fully that of Wenger's

'Cruyff believes you can still be successful [at winning the Champions League] using a good youth set-up and by recruiting talented young players. Gunners boss Wenger said: “I totally agree with Cruyff — and I won’t change. “The only sad thing is that sometimes your work is destroyed by others".' "I won't buy big" is the banner headline. I don't see him saying that but I agree it's a fair extrapolation.

The whole article is an interesting read and I come away convinced that the man has totally laudible principles and is totally and hopelessly deluded in thinking that today's environment is the same as Cruyff's environment.

SNAFU at Arsenal, but should be an interesting ride. With the board's backing I cannot make my usual prediction that he will be gone by the end of the season, but I suspect there might be some very significant fan turbulence against the whole set-up this year. I hope we can at least manage to continue to play watchable football.

Edit: switch the last sentence around a bit will ya - it's Wenger not me that has the Board's backing :-)

Why add man utd to man city and chelsea, we cannot compete with those two, and our net spending over the last few years is less than Stoke.