Arsenal

[LaoPo]

1. No, contrary to your opinion I am more realistic and not jealous since we have a minor country, compared to the largest European nations like Britain, Italy and Spain, next to Germany, and we know that there will be a day that a brilliant player will leave for a bigger more powerful club somewhere in Europe or beyond and leave for the big bucks.

Just because one knows something will happen, doesn't stop one from wishing it didn't.

2. The point is, Rixalex, that if young players do not get the chance and opportunity to play at the highest levels in their own country because all clubs preferred to buy (cheaper at first) foreign players, they will NEVER be able to grow to the level, required by the same clubs!

Do you have evidence to support your belief that foreign players are cheaper and that is why they are signed over and above British players? I think there's truth to it when we look at the very top players, but with all the others i think it comes down much more to foreign players being quite simply better.

Now your idea is for the managers of Premiership clubs to be made to overlook the fact that British players may not be very good, and force them to sign them and play them, all because it is their responsibility to help develop British talent. For one, i don't think it is their responsibility. Wenger's responsibility is to the Arsenal team, not the England one. And for two, by forcing Premiership teams to play sub-standard British players, yes, we have more British players on the pitch, but by doing so we drop the standard of the league. Better i say to have fewer British players on the pitch, but those who are really are outstanding and are being chosen on merit, not on negative discrimination.

My belief remains that many who are so keen on this negative discrimination idea believe so not through some altruistic desire for more local talent to be allowed to emerge, but because they don't like the domination of the Premiership and want to find a way in which their own league and other European leagues might compete better. I don't blame them for feeling this way, i just wish they'd be more honest about it.

1. young talented players, bought from abroad are indeed cheaper rather than training and coaching (+ paying) of own pupils for many years.

2. please leave the word discrimination out of the discussion; you are the one who started talking about it and discrimination has nothing to do with the discussion

3. the huge amount of money -talking about hundreds of millions (GBP's - $'s - Euros), spent on buying foreing players -young or already proven quaity players- is money that is NOT spent (anymore) on education and training of young talented local players.

4, the main point is that BECAUSE foreign players are bought, other brilliant local players do NOT get the opportunity anymore to prove themselves and to grow within the local country's competitions and/or even the national team; they won't get as far as the national team anymore because they didn't have the chance (anymore) to maken enough hours on the fields in the highest possible leagues due to the foreing players.

If only half of that money would be spent on talented local players, including a better nationwide scouting, all countries in Europe would find brilliant new future top players in their own kitchen

Maybe some forgot, but we have 800+ million people in Europe....a part of the world where football is #1 in sports.

LaoPo

[rixalex]

1. young talented players, bought from abroad are indeed cheaper rather than training and coaching (+ paying) of own pupils for many years.

Blanket statement above. Some may be cheaper, others may not. How much did Manchester United spend training and coaching the likes of Scholes and Giggs?

My point stands. The reason why Wenger buys players from outside of England isn't simply about money, it's about the quality of talent. I agree, something needs to be done about that, but not for the sake of Arsenal football club, but for the sake of the England national team. Is the England national team Wenger's responsibility? I don't think so. Should it be? I don't think so either.

2. please leave the word discrimination out of the discussion; you are the one who started talking about it and discrimination has nothing to do with the discussion

I won't leave it out of the discussion because it has everything to do with it. If a player from France is better than a player from England, but Wenger is forced to sign and play the English player, that is discriminating based on nationality. What else would you like to call it?

The Premiership is not a competition of nationalities, so what is says in a players passport should have no bearing. All that should count is how well they play. End of.

[smokie36]

Best of luck to the O's today.....hope they score a couple early on.....

[MiG16]

I loveeeee the Dutch.

2 of my fav football players are Dutch.

BUT this is still an Arsenal thread. so back to our FA cup game tonight......

smokie..we shall see

[LaoPo]

2. please leave the word discrimination out of the discussion; you are the one who started talking about it and discrimination has nothing to do with the discussion

I won't leave it out of the discussion because it has everything to do with it. If a player from France is better than a player from England, but Wenger is forced to sign and play the English player, that is discriminating based on nationality. What else would you like to call it?

Go ahead if you wish, but I'm out as soon as discrimination is dragged into the discussion.

The point was that Johann Cruijff is pleading for a limitation of a maximum of 5 foreign players per club in the 1st Team.

That's not discrimination; it's pleading for more chances for their own players.

But if you wish to see PL football clubs with 100% foreigners...go ahead and face the consequences in the future.

What do you tell all the proud fathers, watching their little boys playing football...."sorry for you but your son has no chance whatsoever, we only have foreigners, playing for Arsenal ?"

BTW: I never got an answer how many foreigners are playing in Arsenal's 1st....? Surely you chaps must know better than me.

LaoPo

[rixalex]

I loveeeee the Dutch.

2 of my fav football players are Dutch.

BUT this is still an Arsenal thread. so back to our FA cup game tonight......

smokie..we shall see

Are you suggesting Migsy that discussing the pros and cons of having foreign players playing in the Premiership is in some way off-topic in the Arsenal thread?

[smokie36]

Best of luck to the O's today.....hope they score a couple early on.....

[SantiSuk]

Seems a bit strange to be pushing for high national content when many other institutions in society are trying to break down intra-European community boundaries.

Arsenal are one of the purest European Union teams in the EPL by the way. I haven't done the analysis but can only think of Arshavin and Denilsson who fall outside the EU in the regular rotation. Others are welcome to correct me and brag about their own teams dominance (Spuds are about the same?).

Anyway, Fabregas is British [according to the EPL classification, because he has spent most of his adult life here]

Anyway 2. Back to last night? How irritating. An Orient strike looked highly unlikely to happen but I did think that Arse was being a bit too charitable to a clearly struggling Chamak. [After the event I can rationalise now that] he should have taken him off and played Bendtner up front in his more natural position. I'm not a Bendntner (bugger how do you spell his name?) fan, but he seems to have a habit of scoring when he is the 'supplied through the middle' sole target man. It's not as though we were playing in any format that suited a traditional 'supply from the wings' front man like Chamak.

How many more seasons do you need Arsene to convince yourself that Denilsson is not an acceptable B team rotatee for Fabregas and/or Wilshere?

Bring on the tiresome replay. We can probably be arrogant enough at The Emirates to screw this one up.

Edit: - forgot our young smiley Swiss (non-EU) centre half!

Edited February 21, 2011 by SantiSuk

[MSingh]

How many more seasons do you need Arsene to convince yourself that Denilsson is not an acceptable B team rotatee for Fabregas and/or Wilshere?

Denilson reminds me of the Lucas situation at liverpool, if they were from Ramsgate & Skegness respectively, they wouldn't get near either Team..

But they're not, they're from Brazil, so they must be good..

[SantiSuk]

How many more seasons do you need Arsene to convince yourself that Denilsson is not an acceptable B team rotatee for Fabregas and/or Wilshere?

Denilson reminds me of the Lucas situation at liverpool, if they were from Ramsgate & Skegness respectively, they wouldn't get near either Team..

But they're not, they're from Brazil, so they must be good..

Spot on, and South American football supremacy is decades out of date anyway (with apologies to the individual skills of Messi and Tevez).

[rixalex]

How many more seasons do you need Arsene to convince yourself that Denilsson is not an acceptable B team rotatee for Fabregas and/or Wilshere?

Denilson reminds me of the Lucas situation at liverpool, if they were from Ramsgate & Skegness respectively, they wouldn't get near either Team..

But they're not, they're from Brazil, so they must be good..

Spot on.

[SantiSuk]

No van Persie tonight. Slight (we are told) hamstring injury. Luckily its Stoke and only Wolves have lost more away form home this season.

I hope Wenger picks Bendtner up front, presumably supported by the lil' Russian who is back on form (have you seen his defending too - a new man!) and Walcott with Fab and Wilshere making the plays. That should guarantee a couple of goals. I hope Arsene does not hold back Fab for the Milk Cup - a loss tonight will be a poor precedent for the three cup games ahead. That's right folks - 3 cup games in 3 different competitions (even if the next one doesn't really count ).

No Koscielny either (minor injury). That should guarantee Stoke a goal.

Therefore best guess result Arsenal 3-1.

[i wonder if we will see van P again in the next few weeks?

[SantiSuk]

Not pretty but 3 points is 3 points. Worrying lack of invention in front of a resolute Stoke defense once Fab had gone off injured. Hope he is back in time for Barca. Walcott's injury looks like he might be out for the season. dam_n!

Line up for Saturday's Rumbelow's Cup extravanza probably same as finishing team tonight plus Bendtner minus Chamak.

[Chicog]

Walcott has a sprained ankle. Where did you hear he's out for the season?

And as for saying Stoke had a "resolute defence", so that's the name they give the old 10-1 formation, is it?

They were shit as usual and I hope they get relegated. They are truly a loathsome team to watch.

[rixalex]

The point was that Johann Cruijff is pleading for a limitation of a maximum of 5 foreign players per club in the 1st Team.

That's not discrimination;

It is discrimination and the fact that it is, is what will make implementing it difficult, as it contravenes existing EU laws.

it's pleading for more chances for their own players.

Chances should always be given on merit.

But if you wish to see PL football clubs with 100% foreigners...go ahead and face the consequences in the future.

I don't wish to see the Premier League 100% foreign, and no where have i said that, i wish to see the Premier League a league full of the best players in the world, where ever they may be from. I wish the Premier League to be a completely free and open environment in which young guys with talent can come and can play no matter what it says in their passports.

What do you tell all the proud fathers, watching their little boys playing football...."sorry for you but your son has no chance whatsoever, we only have foreigners, playing for Arsenal ?"

Proud fathers should be told the truth, and that's not that Arsenal only signs players if they are foreigners, but that they only sign players if they are good enough.

[LaoPo]

You're funny Rixalex..

On one hand you say that it's discrimination, implementing a rule that says that only 5 players per club could be from abroad, but at the same time you don't want 100% foreign players.

Well, it's discriminating if you say it's acceptable that 70 or 80% of the players (out of 11) are foreign players; It's discriminating your own country players.

You wish a complete open environment for young guys from other countries who happen to have a gift..playing football?

What about the millions of other gifted young men and women from Africa, South America and Asia, dreaming of coming to the UK and EU ? Gifted as a carpenter, mechanic or painter...?

You measure with two different tape measures; one for the ones who can please you BECAUSE they play nice football and the others can stay home because they don't play football.

Who's discriminating here?

LaoPo

Edited February 24, 2011 by LaoPo

[rixalex]

On one hand you say that it's discrimination, implementing a rule that says that only 5 players per club could be from abroad, but at the same time you don't want 100% foreign players.

You fail to understand. I neither want 100% foreign players, nor do i not want 100% foreign players. I simply don't care where they come from. If the lad plays better than the other lads, that's the lad that should be given the chance, whether he comes from Timbucktoo or Tunbridge Wells, i don't care. I do care about equal opportunities for those gifted.

Well, it's discriminating if you say it's acceptable that 70 or 80% of the players (out of 11) are foreign players; It's discriminating your own country players.

The only way in which it is discriminating is against players who aren't good enough. Nothing to do with whether they are from my own country or not. That's the whole point. You are missing it.

You wish a complete open environment for young guys from other countries who happen to have a gift..playing football?

Yes.

[rixalex]

What about the millions of other gifted young men and women from Africa, South America and Asia, dreaming of coming to the UK and EU ? Gifted as a carpenter, mechanic or painter...?

You measure with two different tape measures; one for the ones who can please you BECAUSE they play nice football and the others can stay home because they don't play football.

What on earth are you rambling on about? Foreign football players playing in the Premiership are granted visas because their talent is not available locally. Carpenters, mechanics and painters are. If there were no good carpenters, mechanics or painters in the UK then absolutely, other nationals should be welcomed in. Much like the way nurses from Asia are recruited and given visas to work in UK hospitals, because there simply aren't enough qualified nurses locally.

Who's discriminating here?

You.

[LaoPo]

sigh...

If you want only the BEST players from around the world, playing in Arsenal (or another Premier League Club, and the club (financiers/sponsors/tycoons/owners) would have the money, you would have a club with 100% non-UK players.

End of story and the beginning of the end for UK football.

Maybe you missed it but Italian football, once the best in the world, is sliding downhill fast and wealthy sponsors are backing off already, leaving clubs to die because they are drowning in deep debts.

The same could happen in the UK; if men like Abramovitch and other tycoons (Arsenal's American share holder Kroenke & Fiszman, a diamond dealer and a few minor ones) would back off, now still pumping hundreds of millions in clubs, the club won't be able to survive anymore and/or buy foreign players; very simple really.

Many European- and also UK clubs are in deep <deleted> and financial debts and you seem to forget that not only companies can go under but football clubs also and a PM League would be worth nothing with only a handful of clubs surviving.

Sure, Arsenal is still in good shape, thanks to the multi millions sponsors/owners put on the table but what if they back off?

There are (again) problems arising in the US where clubowners in various sports refuse to pay the absurd salaries for their players anymore whilst players think they deserve it.

I'm looking to the future; you're living in present times without a vision further than your nose is long....only willing to buy the best players from around the world....

You have a limited view, only looking to your local favourite team; I'm thinking about national football, in whatever country, and in the interests of YOUNG gifted players in that country.

If you continue to think like that, England will never be able to recapture the World Cup, they last won in 1966 (Jules Rimet Cup) , some 45 years ago, whilst other mainland countries won the cup many times, together with South America, since.

LaoPo

Edited February 24, 2011 by LaoPo

[rixalex]

sigh...

If you want only the BEST players from around the world, playing in Arsenal (or another Premier League Club, and the club (financiers/sponsors/tycoons/owners) would have the money, you would have a club with 100% non-UK players.

End of story and the beginning of the end for UK football.

Maybe you missed it but Italian football, once the best in the world, is sliding downhill fast and wealthy sponsors are backing off already, leaving clubs to die because they are drowning in deep debts.

The same could happen in the UK; if men like Abramovitch and other tycoons (Arsenal's American share holder Kroenke & Fiszman, a diamond dealer and a few minor ones) would back off, now still pumping hundreds of millions in clubs, the club won't be able to survive anymore and/or buy foreign players; very simple really.

Many European- and also UK clubs are in deep <deleted> and financial debts and you seem to forget that not only companies can go under but football clubs also and a PM League would be worth nothing with only a handful of clubs surviving.

Sure, Arsenal is still in good shape, thanks to the multi millions sponsors/owners put on the table but what if they back off?

There are (again) problems arising in the US where clubowners in various sports refuse to pay the absurd salaries for their players anymore whilst players think they deserve it.

I'm looking to the future; you're living in present times without a vision further than your nose is long....only willing to buy the best players from around the world....

You have a limited view, only looking to your local favourite team; I'm thinking about national football, in whatever country, and in the interests of YOUNG gifted players in that country.

If you continue to think like that, England will never be able to recapture the World Cup, they last won in 1966 (Jules Rimet Cup) , some 45 years ago, whilst other mainland countries won the cup many times, together with South America, since.

LaoPo

I'm all for doing something about improving local talent, just like you. Unlike you, i don't believe that discrimination is the way to go about it. British players should be playing in the Premiership because they earn the right by the way they play - just as all the current British players in the Premiership have earnt the chance given to them. Forcing clubs to sign and play players who aren't up to scratch, just to make numbers up, is an insult to British players who are genuinely good enough, and it's an insult to other nationals who have the skills but who you want to shut out because of their passports.

[MSingh]

Whilst we're on the subject, it doesn't helped that British ( English specifically ) Players are so expensive..

The Carroll Transfer sums it up completely, the Kid has played one full Season in his whole Career, & that was in teh Champonship, utterly ridiculous..

That does not help the National Team of any of the UK Country's, specifically England, at all..

Those British Players invariably need developing too & in today's Premier League, it's all about now, now, now & most certainly not tomorrow, in terms of Transfers anyway especially of British Players, who are just too expensive..

[MiG16]

Rixalex

I see where laopo is coming from though.

While there are requirements that need to be satisfied by the football players as there are requirements for other labour or professional jobs, but I wonder if someone trying to get a teaching job in uk gets as much public support as the foreign football player?

Because football and the epl is such a high profile industry, it is reasonable to wonder if those that work in it get special privileges than an average migrant

However this is NOT the place to discuss migration policies.

And to answer your earlier remark about whether I think discussing it on arsenal thread is off topic - while it has some relevance, foreign players in epl is not exclusive to arsenal. If u want a lengthy discussion on that topic, it would serve the debate better to do it in it's own thread. (I don't think my arsenal thread is THAT popular . Your discussion won't get enough exposure).

In fact, I recall a thread discussing this topic a while back.

Oh and Alex - we won!!

[rixalex]

Whilst we're on the subject, it doesn't helped that British ( English specifically ) Players are so expensive..

The Carroll Transfer sums it up completely, the Kid has played one full Season in his whole Career, & that was in teh Champonship, utterly ridiculous..

That does not help the National Team of any of the UK Country's, specifically England, at all..

Those British Players invariably need developing too & in today's Premier League, it's all about now, now, now & most certainly not tomorrow, in terms of Transfers anyway especially of British Players, who are just too expensive..

As i said at the beginning of this discussion, i agree that especially in terms of the "big name" players, there is an issue of extra cost with British players that puts clubs off from signing them, and that certainly doesn't help matters.

Cost however is far from being the only reason why clubs sign overseas players.

[rixalex]

Rixalex

I see where laopo is coming from though.

I see where he is coming from too, i just don't agree with the method he advocates.

Oh and Alex - we won!!

LOL. So that's why you are showing your pretty little face.

[MSingh]

Whilst we're on the subject, it doesn't helped that British ( English specifically ) Players are so expensive..

The Carroll Transfer sums it up completely, the Kid has played one full Season in his whole Career, & that was in teh Champonship, utterly ridiculous..

That does not help the National Team of any of the UK Country's, specifically England, at all..

Those British Players invariably need developing too & in today's Premier League, it's all about now, now, now & most certainly not tomorrow, in terms of Transfers anyway especially of British Players, who are just too expensive..

As i said at the beginning of this discussion, i agree that especially in terms of the "big name" players, there is an issue of extra cost with British players that puts clubs off from signing them, and that certainly doesn't help matters.

Cost however is far from being the only reason why clubs sign overseas players.

Certainly, i should have added that not only are our Players expensive, they are genrally not as good tehnically, at a young age, than certain other Nationalities..

Even our Academy has Foreign Kids these days & as for Arse & Chels..........................................................

It really is no wonder that the English National Team is so sh*t, not to me anyway..

[SantiSuk]

Even with our injury list we should still have the core of a team good enough to demolish Birmingham (van Persie, Nasri, Arshavin, Rosicky, Wilshere). I worry about using vanP on a dodgy hamstring for the [insert logo of choice] Cup - even though it is the final. However, having got here, I'm sure Arsene will have the best go he can at it. I'm hoping we get a few before halftime so that he can make an early substitution.

From a spectator viewpoint it's a pity there is that (IMO stupid) 'cup tie' rule, which rules out 3 of their players. Birmingham are a much better side with their Hotspurts loanee on the right.

In view of my previous comments about the worth of this particular competition it is a case of som nam nah that I will probably only catch the first half - in a bar at Swampy before setting out on a night flight back to Blighty. I may take in the Leyton (bog off Singhy ) replay, but not if I can find myself a ticket for the Old Trafford game for less than £200.

[i'll bet Singh has a thing or two to say about rich gits buying their way into games - bog off Singhy ]

[smokie36]

Even with our injury list we should still have the core of a team good enough to demolish Birmingham (van Persie, Nasri, Arshavin, Rosicky, Wilshere). I worry about using vanP on a dodgy hamstring for the [insert logo of choice] Cup - even though it is the final. However, having got here, I'm sure Arsene will have the best go he can at it. I'm hoping we get a few before halftime so that he can make an early substitution.

From a spectator viewpoint it's a pity there is that (IMO stupid) 'cup tie' rule, which rules out 3 of their players. Birmingham are a much better side with their Hotspurts loanee on the right.

In view of my previous comments about the worth of this particular competition it is a case of som nam nah that I will probably only catch the first half - in a bar at Swampy before setting out on a night flight back to Blighty. I may take in the Leyton (bog off Singhy ) replay, but not if I can find myself a ticket for the Old Trafford game for less than £200.

[i'll bet Singh has a thing or two to say about rich gits buying their way into games - bog off Singhy ]

Defeat tomorrow and the resulting catastrophic effect in the dressing room should derail your season perfectly.

[carmine]

Even with our injury list we should still have the core of a team good enough to demolish Birmingham (van Persie, Nasri, Arshavin, Rosicky, Wilshere). I worry about using vanP on a dodgy hamstring for the [insert logo of choice] Cup - even though it is the final. However, having got here, I'm sure Arsene will have the best go he can at it. I'm hoping we get a few before halftime so that he can make an early substitution.

From a spectator viewpoint it's a pity there is that (IMO stupid) 'cup tie' rule, which rules out 3 of their players. Birmingham are a much better side with their Hotspurts loanee on the right.

In view of my previous comments about the worth of this particular competition it is a case of som nam nah that I will probably only catch the first half - in a bar at Swampy before setting out on a night flight back to Blighty. I may take in the Leyton (bog off Singhy ) replay, but not if I can find myself a ticket for the Old Trafford game for less than £200.

[i'll bet Singh has a thing or two to say about rich gits buying their way into games - bog off Singhy ]

Defeat tomorrow and the resulting catastrophic effect in the dressing room should derail your season perfectly.

I really can't see any scenario where Brum might win this final.

[smokie36]

Defeat tomorrow and the resulting catastrophic effect in the dressing room should derail your season perfectly.

I really can't see any scenario where Brum might win this final.

I was going to say its the biggest game of the season for Brum....but then it'll be the same for both clubs.

Hopefully Fabregass will come on and get injured for the rest of the season (missing the Nou Camp which is no doubt his plan).

[MSingh]

Even with our injury list we should still have the core of a team good enough to demolish Birmingham (van Persie, Nasri, Arshavin, Rosicky, Wilshere). I worry about using vanP on a dodgy hamstring for the [insert logo of choice] Cup - even though it is the final. However, having got here, I'm sure Arsene will have the best go he can at it. I'm hoping we get a few before halftime so that he can make an early substitution.

From a spectator viewpoint it's a pity there is that (IMO stupid) 'cup tie' rule, which rules out 3 of their players. Birmingham are a much better side with their Hotspurts loanee on the right.

In view of my previous comments about the worth of this particular competition it is a case of som nam nah that I will probably only catch the first half - in a bar at Swampy before setting out on a night flight back to Blighty. I may take in the Leyton (bog off Singhy ) replay, but not if I can find myself a ticket for the Old Trafford game for less than £200.

[i'll bet Singh has a thing or two to say about rich gits buying their way into games - bog off Singhy ]

Defeat tomorrow and the resulting catastrophic effect in the dressing room should derail your season perfectly.

I really can't see any scenario where Brum might win this final.

None at all, they're awful..