Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[soalbundy]

12 hours ago, nauseus said:

And after the Cologne station incident we all know how forthcoming the German press are! 

Ah ! a fellow reader of the German press, with the exception of the Bild Zeitung they aren't as hysterical as the British boulevard press, something you have no doubt noticed.

[soalbundy]

13 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Well done.

 

You have now identified that both camps told lies.

 

This does not really come as a surprise to anyone that has a brain.

 

However, to answer your main point.

 

Access and membership are 2 different things.

we are still waiting to see what this access will look like.

[tebee]

Just now, soalbundy said:

we are still waiting to see what this access will look like.

Everybody has access to the EU single market.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

15 hours ago, Grouse said:

I recommend that you read the rules of this forum. Spelling police are not wanted.

I notice that your best buddy ‘soalbundy’ also pointed out your spelling mistake; but you thanked him, and yet criticised me. Double standards again old bean, selective admonishment, tut, tut, such hypocrisy ?? ✌️✌️

Edited June 18, 2018 by Eloquent pilgrim

[FreddieRoyle]

25 minutes ago, tebee said:

Interesting thought about why so many of us seem to be taking Brexit personally .

 

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but whereas traditional politics has tended to divide people by class & ideology, Brexit tends to divide people by personality type and fundamental beliefs about social morality, and those divisions tend to be much more personal and bitter."

 

@nickreeves9876

Agree with the quote, Brexit is certainly a personal matter. But don't forget there is also the matter of the democratic referendum, and the vilification of Brexit voters as racist etc and the constant trying by Remainers to undo the results of the democratic referendum. It goes beyond politics, its a case of do we have democracy, or are the remainers above that because they are so sure they are correct? A divisive issue for sure. Is there any point in having a general election, now that referendums and votes are essentially meaningless? This lack of acceptance of the vote IMO has set a very dangerous precedent - and might well come back to bite those that least expect it when political winds change (and they most certainly are changing).

[Kieran00001]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

Have you not noticed how much, very anti German sentiment has been expressed throughout Europe in recent years.  Even more than I can remember as a young schoolboy. could this be due to the E.U. being under the dominance of Germany.

 

 

 

Nope, haven't noticed any anti German sentiment across Europe.  There are polls conducted though, so we don't have to rely on anecdotal reports.

 

Quote

The most widespread positive views of Germany could be found among its European neighbours, including very large majorities in Italy (82%), Spain (77%), Portugal (76%), and France (74%). Significant numbers in Great Britain (62%) and Russia (61%) also had favourable views of Germany

Quote

In the first ten polls, annual from 2005, Germany had been the country with world influence most commonly viewed positively at least in 2008^[93] as well as 2013 and 2014.

Quote

the British people have a rather positive image of Germany, with 62 percent believing that Germany has a mainly positive influence in the world and only 20 percent believing that Germany's influence is mainly negative

 

So we can see that we actually have a pro German sentiment on average, and this is nothing new, even during the war the majority of British people were pro-German.

Quote

In the same year Mass Observation asked its observers to analyse British private opinion of the German people and found that 54% of opinion was "pro-German", in that it expressed sympathy and "not their fault". This tolerance of the German people as opposed to the Nazi regime increased as the war progressed. Mass Observation established in 1943 that up to 60% of people maintained a distinction between Germans and Nazis, with only 20% or so expressing any "hatred, vindictiveness, or need for retribution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-German_sentiment#Contemporary_Europe

[The Renegade]

57 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Ah ! a fellow reader of the German press, with the exception of the Bild Zeitung they aren't as hysterical as the British boulevard press, something you have no doubt noticed.

I don't think hysterical is the word that you are looking for. 

 

Quote

An influential German institute has studied thousands of article published by daily newspapers during the refugee crisis. Their conclusion: journalists lost their objectivity and drove a wedge through society.

 

As hundreds of thousands of refugees arrived in Germany in 2015 and early 2016, daily newspapers took on the role of “public educators” rather than objective critics of public policy, a team of researchers at the Otto Brenner Institute conclude, according to a report in Die Zeit this week.

 

Quote

People who criticized the government policy were treated by journalists as suspect and potentially racist. At the same time, the newspapers saw it as their role to educate such people on becoming better human beings, the study argues.

“Most journalists failed in their job as someone who is supposed to objectively explain the world to readers,” Haller told Die Zeit.

https://www.thelocal.de/20170721/german-media-failed-to-report-refugee-crisis-honestly-study-claims

 

Sound familiar ?

 

I think that we can agree that  '' Journalism '' is pretty much dead across the MSM and has become nothing more than an opinionated mouthpiece for one side or another.

[The Renegade]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

we are still waiting to see what this access will look like.

It does not matter a jot what that access will, or will not look like, because it has nothing to do with my comment, which you replied to, was:

 

Quote

Access and membership are 2 different things.

Why do so many people on this thread feel the need to invent things ?

[bristolboy]

55 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

I don't think hysterical is the word that you are looking for. 

 

 

https://www.thelocal.de/20170721/german-media-failed-to-report-refugee-crisis-honestly-study-claims

 

Sound familiar ?

 

I think that we can agree that  '' Journalism '' is pretty much dead across the MSM and has become nothing more than an opinionated mouthpiece for one side or another.

I didn't know that the German Media was so widely followed in the UK. Or that the conclusion of the study found that its practices were emulated by the media in other nations. Thanks for your rigorous reading between the lines.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

I notice that your best buddy ‘soalbundy’ also pointed out your spelling mistake; but you thanked him, and yet criticised me. Double standards again old bean, selective admonishment, tut, tut, such hypocrisy ??✌️✌️

I rather think that Soulbundy is a German speaker and wished to help me.

 

You were just being yourself. 

[nong38]

When looked at as the result is often shown 52% to 48% its a decisive to close result but if the result was shown and delivered as a UK style election a very different picture is seen.

When the referendum took place it was taken over 382 unitary constituencies like as if we were voting  for EU parliamentary seats so the first to 192 wins much like we would expect with a General Election, Cornwall for instance was taken as one seat, the actual result was 263  voted leave and 119 voted to remain it was only the big cities with bigger populations that made the "people vote" look pretty close.

The people knew what they voting for and it was different things for different people and one of the biggest factors was a vote against "the Establishment" who have not been listening to the people for years, this was the big chance to stick it up em and that that means all political parties and the people who are supposed to work for them.

I don't think many were under any illusion that the HMG were running a scare campaign and the people were not taken in and naturally opposed it, they also were aware that things would get worse before they got better but that was worth it for a  better future.

I was on tour of the UK in the weeks leading up to the vote and from what I saw, felt and heard it was not a surprise to me that the result turned out as it did, nor am I convinced that was all done on age grounds, plenty of young people voted to leave as well.

We are where we are and the country should get behind the Government now and let them get the best deal they can for everyone, ego should be shelved for the good of the country and its people, its over the vote was 2 years ago there will be no new referendum, get over it, accept it and lets be positive.

[bristolboy]

I was on tour of the UK in the weeks leading up to the vote and from what I saw, felt and heard it was not a surprise to me that the result turned out as it did, nor am I convinced that was all done on age grounds, plenty of young people voted to leave as well.

Can you define "plenty" in percentage terms? If not, it's just meaningless in this context.

[nong38]

Just now, bristolboy said:

I was on tour of the UK in the weeks leading up to the vote and from what I saw, felt and heard it was not a surprise to me that the result turned out as it did, nor am I convinced that was all done on age grounds, plenty of young people voted to leave as well.

Can you define "plenty" in percentage terms? If not, it's just meaningless in this context.

Not in percentage  terms no, but huge placards and posters on buildings all for leave I saw non for remain, it built up a picture for me that the feeling was strong, very strong for leave. 

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Don’t be mistaken that the rants of Brexit zealots here on TVF have any bearing on the outcome of Brexit.

 

Nobody voted for job losses or to be poorer, something that will become more of an issue nas the final deal comes into sight.

 

(I quoted your whole comment because I didn’t have to cut out bits I didn’t agree wit ?

Spot on. My son and his wife voted to leave because his mother in law in law said so, lives just round the corner. Late last year the company he works for merged with a company in Ireland to maintain activity in the EU. He is now concerned that if things go sour he may have to relocate to Dublin. The whole family, including the mother in law are now regretting the way they voted. More and more will change their views as brexit starts to impact on their personal circumstances. 

The TM doctrine does not allow people to change their minds, only her own.

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, transam said:

More Oliver Twist's....?

One view, the more forward thinking would see a large increase in an effectively domestic market.

[RuamRudy]

24 minutes ago, nong38 said:

 

We are where we are and the country should get behind the Government now and let them get the best deal they can for everyone, ego should be shelved for the good of the country and its people, its over the vote was 2 years ago there will be no new referendum, get over it, accept it and lets be positive.

You seem to think that remainers are simply bad losers, objecting because their team didn't win. I think that couldn't be further from the truth. The reality is that the vast majority of experts suggest that we are on a bus that our leaders are intent on driving off a cliff.

 

The Brexit camp has failed dismally and depressingly consistently to present any positive signs of a bright new future ahead of us. They have not presented anything even vaguely resembling any sort of credible plan on what they intend to do or how they intend to do it, and they have proven time and again their rank incompetence in their attempts at negotiations. 

 

These facts are what motivates remainers - not some petty notion of feeling hurt about being on the losing side. It is incumbent upon each and every remainer to shout this as loudly and as frequently as possible.

Edited June 18, 2018 by RuamRudy

[The Renegade]

Quote

More Oliver Twist's....?

 

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

One view, the more forward thinking would see a large increase in an effectively domestic market.

As they are 6 of the top 10 of Europe's poorest Countries, can you explain why they will increase the domestic market ?

 

Unless of course, you mean flood them with other Countries money, let Capitalism flourish and turn them into debt slaves.

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, nong38 said:

Not in percentage  terms no, but huge placards and posters on buildings all for leave I saw non for remain, it built up a picture for me that the feeling was strong, very strong for leave. 

Or maybe it just meant that brexit was being bankrolled by various billionaire tax avoiders... 

[The Renegade]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The reality is that the vast majority of experts suggest that we are on a bus that our leaders are intent on driving off a cliff.

Invest in airbags then, you know it makes sense.

 

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The Brexit camp has failed dismally and depressingly consistently to present any positive signs of a bright new future ahead of us.

The remain camp failed dismally in presenting a case for staying in the EU, at a cost of £9 million of taxpayers money.

 

Should you not be cheerleading for Brexit ? After all, will Brexit not hasten Scottish Independence ?

Edited June 18, 2018 by The Renegade

[The Renegade]

34 minutes ago, nong38 said:

When looked at as the result is often shown 52% to 48% its a decisive to close result but if the result was shown and delivered as a UK style election a very different picture is seen.

Correct

 

This gives a far more in depth analysis than the 52 - 48 mantra and a whole different picture.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016

 

Which breaks it down by UK Regions, Major Cities and finally Local Regions.

 

[Grouse]

40 minutes ago, nong38 said:

Not in percentage  terms no, but huge placards and posters on buildings all for leave I saw non for remain, it built up a picture for me that the feeling was strong, very strong for leave. 

I don't think remain people do placards and posters. A little too populist don't you think.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I rather think that Soulbundy is a German speaker and wished to help me.

 

You were just being yourself. 

As I Said, hypocrisy personified, old bean. However, it’s a shame that among your intellectually superior remain buddies, you do not have a French language speaker. Then you wouldn’t have to rely on a mere Brexiteer like myself to correct your French, in the helpful way that I did.

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You seem to think that remainers are simply bad losers, objecting because their team didn't win. I think that couldn't be further from the truth. The reality is that the vast majority of experts suggest that we are on a bus that our leaders are intent on driving off a cliff.

 

The Brexit camp has failed dismally and depressingly consistently to present any positive signs of a bright new future ahead of us. They have not presented anything even vaguely resembling any sort of credible plan on what they intend to do or how they intend to do it, and they have proven time and again their rank incompetence in their attempts at negotiations. 

 

These facts are what motivates remainers - not some petty notion of feeling hurt about being on the losing side. It is incumbent upon each and every remainer to shout this as loudly and as frequently as possible.

"You seem to think that remainers are simply bad losers, objecting because their team didn't win."

 

Yes, that's my view of what has happened and is happening.  The 'experts' were proven wrong on their pre-referendum forecasts, and were/are very biased - and yet we're supposed to forgive their inadequacies in the past, and accept that from now on their biased opinions will be correct?

 

"The Brexit camp has failed dismally and depressingly consistently to present any positive signs of a bright new future ahead of us. They have not presented anything even vaguely resembling any sort of credible plan on what they intend to do or how they intend to do it, and they have proven time and again their rank incompetence in their attempts at negotiations."

 

There are very few genuine brexiteers in the govt., which (IMO) is why they are negotiating on the eu's terms....  They're hoping for a 'leave in name only' result - that won't see the MPs in leave constituencies voted out of office.

[tebee]

22 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You seem to think that remainers are simply bad losers, objecting because their team didn't win. I think that couldn't be further from the truth. The reality is that the vast majority of experts suggest that we are on a bus that our leaders are intent on driving off a cliff.

 

The Brexit camp has failed dismally and depressingly consistently to present any positive signs of a bright new future ahead of us. They have not presented anything even vaguely resembling any sort of credible plan on what they intend to do or how they intend to do it, and they have proven time and again their rank incompetence in their attempts at negotiations. 

 

These facts are what motivates remainers - not some petty notion of feeling hurt about being on the losing side. It is incumbent upon each and every remainer to shout this as loudly and as frequently as possible.

Not only that but every grown up country knows that for referendums on major constitutional changes you shouldn't just have a simple majority - you need some kind of supermajority otherwise the win is not clear cut and you end up with the exact situation you have now with almost half the country  refusing to accept the result and stalemate.

 

With a simple majority challenges to the result over overspending by one side,  outside influence and people not knowing what the were voting for have some validity that they wouldn't have if we had needed a supermajority .     

[transam]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I don't think remain people do placards and posters. A little too populist don't you think.

Perhaps don't want to spend their cash they are so worried about eh...

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Yes, that's my view of what has happened and is happening.  The 'experts' were proven wrong on their pre-referendum forecasts, and were/are very biased - and yet we're supposed to forgive their inadequacies in the past, and accept that from now on their biased opinions will be correct?

Correct

 

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

There are very few genuine brexiteers in the govt., which (IMO) is why they are negotiating on the eu's terms....  They're hoping for a 'leave in name only' result - that won't see the MPs in leave constituencies voted out of office.

Correct.

[transam]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

Not only that but every grown up country knows that for referendums on major constitutional changes you shouldn't just have a simple majority - you need some kind of supermajority otherwise the win is not clear cut and you end up with the exact situation you have now with almost half the country  refusing to accept the result and stalemate.

 

With a simple majority challenges to the result over overspending by one side,  outside influence and people not knowing what the were voting for have some validity that they wouldn't have if we had needed a supermajority .     

Has the present UK Gov got a super majority...?

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Grouse said:

I don't think remain people do placards and posters. A little too populist don't you think.

You're kidding, right?

 

Did you not see or read about the remain demonstrations (including many placards and the like) following the referendum result?

[tebee]

Just now, transam said:

Perhaps don't want to spend their cash they are so worried about eh...

But it's very possible that leave had more cash to spend because they flouted the referendum rules - so cheating works !

[malagateddy]

Or maybe it just meant that brexit was being bankrolled by various billionaire tax avoiders... 

Soros..massive financial concerns threw money at the remain camp..as we forum chat right now..soros us at it again.
What right has a hungarian/american billionaire got to stick his nose into British affairs.
Oh I forgot..his new world order..kalergi plan??

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