Non Visa Entry Then Get 1 yr Visa

[Barley]

Hello,

I arrived a couple of days ago in Thailand without a visa.

 

I am currently in Chiang Mai.

 

I come from EU and spend almost every year half a year in Asia and would like to establish residency here, mainly for tax purposes, maybe spending one or two months per year in Thailand.

 

I was able to open a savings account passbook including ATM debit card with Bangkok Bank.

 

I am over 55 and transferring and keeping 800,000 TBH in this account would not be a problem.

 

Would it be possible to get a 1 year visa (I think they are called "retirement visa" by some people) within the next couple of weeks?

 

What would be the steps involved and what documentation needs to be provided?

 

Thank you so much for your help. :)

[ubonjoe]

You can apply for a one year extension of stay based upon retirement at a immigration. You would need the 800k baht in a Thai bank for 60 days for the first extension and 3 months after that.

You would first need to apply for a 90 day non immigrant visa (category O) entry at a immigration office. You would need at least 15 days remaining on your current entry or the 30 day extension of it to do the application. The 800k baht only has to be in the bank on the date you apply for the visa.

Then you could apply for the one year extension during the last 30 days of the 90 day entry from the visa.

Requirements for the visa application are here. https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_80

[Barley]

Thank you very much, ubonjoe. :)

 

So that would mean at least 2.5 months stay in the country until I receive the 1 year extension.

 

That's a bit too long for my plans at the moment.

 

If I would come back in the fall with a visa from the embassy in my country, then the time would shorten to 2 months, correct?

 

Since my plans are also part of my tax optimization strategy, I would need some kind of proof of residency in Thailand.

 

Is there some kind of residency card that I can apply for? What would entail getting that card?

 

Edit:

I just studied the information in your link of Thai immigration.

 

There it states:

"1.2 Form TM.87 for the foreigner, who enters into Thailand without visa, but is allowed to stay in Thailand with a permit of stay for a period of 15 day, 30 days, 90 days and applies for non-immigrant visa."

 

Does it mean that I can apply directly for a 1 year visa?

[ubonjoe]

12 minutes ago, Barley said:

So that would mean at least 2.5 months stay in the country until I receive the 1 year extension.

If you could be back before the end of the 90 day entry you could get a single re-entry permit that will keep the remainder of the 90 day entry when you enter the country. The you could apply for the extension.

 

12 minutes ago, Barley said:

Is there some kind of residency card that I can apply for? What would entail getting that card?

The only thing you could get would be a tax identification number from the revenue department. You are considered a resident for tax purposes here if you stay a total of of 180 days in a calendar year.

You have a stamp that allows you stay here for a year. Not sure that is enough though.

12 minutes ago, Barley said:

If I would come back in the fall with a visa from the embassy in my country, then the time would shorten to 2 months, correct?

You could get a OA long stay visa at the embassy in your home country that allows unlimited one year entries for a year from the date of issue. General requirements are here. http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15385-Non-Immigrant-Visa-"O-A"-(Long-Stay).html

[Barley]

Thank you again for your information. You are very kind and generous with your help.

 

With the O-A visa I can also receive the 1 year extensions in Thailand itself later, or do I have to get it in my country every time?

 

Are there any drawbacks to the O-A visa as opposed to the procedure in your 1st quote?

 

Is the O-A visa easy to obtain?

 

At what stage can I get the tax number and is that easy to get? I heard somewhere that I need to file an income tax return with taxable income for it to be issued.

 

Do I need to show at any point an apartment lease or similar?

 

P. S. : Did you notice my edit of the proceeding post?

[Swimman]

1 hour ago, Barley said:

Does it mean that I can apply directly for a 1 year visa?

 

No - for the simple reason that there is no such  Visa which can be applied for in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[onera1961]

Why not come with an O-A long stay visa. This may be a little expensive but it allows you to stay in Thailand up to a year. You can go in and out any time you want. Don't have to move your money to Thailand. With some tricks, the visa can be used to stay up to almost two years.

 

I am planning to get the O-A long stay visa from USA and come to Thailand in May. I found this option has lots of flexibility.

[Barley]

The O-A visa would be useful for me if I can get the retirement 1 yr visa in Thailand towards the end of its validity (let's say in the last 120 days).

 

Why? Because since I am moving residency to Thailand I will formally give up residency in Europe so that I will not be able to obtain another certificate of no criminal record once I do that since I then have no more residency in Europe.

 

I remember vaguely reading in this forum, that the O-A visa also has some disadvantages, but I don't remember the exact ones any more.

 

As opposed to most queries on this forum which deal with staying as long as possible in Thailand, I really only need/want to stay for like twice a year for a month each, since my focus is more on getting residency for tax reasons, if that would be possible.

 

In addition to that time I will spend 4-5 months in other Asian countries.

 

 

 

 

[4evermaat]

The only disadvantage to the non-o based retirement extension of stay OR non-O-A retirement visa is that there will be a note stamped on your entry or extension saying that you are not [legally] allowed to work when in retirement status.

 

The multiple non o-a is probably your most flexible option.  It allows 1 year permission to stay upon each entry.  So right before the visa expires ("enter before" date), you can enter and get new 1 year permission to stay.  If you need to leave before that permission to stay expires, you can just get a single/multiple re-entry permit at local immigration office. 

 

In practice, you can stay or travel back/forth to Thailand up to 2 years before having to apply for an extension of stay for retirement at local immigration.   You spend that time settling in without having to think about the peculiars of extension of stay.

[Barley]

Hm, thank you for your comment.

But since I will give up residency in Europe I will not be able to get the necessary paperwork (no criminal record certification) together for a second O-A visa.

Therefore this may not be my best option?

[JackThompson]

 

10 hours ago, Barley said:

But since I will give up residency in Europe I will not be able to get the necessary paperwork (no criminal record certification) together for a second O-A visa.

Therefore this may not be my best option?

 

11 hours ago, Barley said:

The O-A visa would be useful for me if I can get the retirement 1 yr visa in Thailand towards the end of its validity (let's say in the last 120 days).

The Non-OA visa confers a one-year entry-stamp upon every use.   It has a 1-year validity, meaning the "enter before" date on the Visa-sticker will be dated 1 year after you apply for the visa.  This Visa may be used to enter Thailand and get a 1-year "permitted stay" stamp each time it is used until that date. 

 

The "2nd year," which some refer to obtaining using this Visa, can be accomplished by entering just before the Visa expires per the "enter before" date on the Visa sticker. 

 

In the last 30-days of any entry's validity from a Non-OA Visa (the sticker, obtained at a Thai Consulate, abroad), it would be possible to obtain a "1 Year Extension Of Stay Based Upon Retirement" in Thailand (a "permitted stay" stamp from a Thai Immigration Office - it is not a "visa"). 

 

The process for a "1 Year Extension Of Stay Based Upon Retirement" can be repeated each year, by applying at a Thai Immigration Office during the last 30-days of each permitted-stay.  You will need to be in Thailand during that time-frame to apply.

[Barley]

Thank you[mention=247476]JackThompson[/mention] for your helpful clarification.

 

If I understand you correctly, I need to be 11 months straight in the Kingdom, to apply in the last 30 days of the permitted 12 months stay for a retirement extension.

 

In this case this visa would not be helpful for me, because I don't plan to stay for that long, as I already tried to explain before.

 

"As opposed to most queries on this forum which deal with staying as long as possible in Thailand, I really only need/want to stay for like twice a year for a month each, since my focus is more on getting residency for tax reasons, if that would be possible.

 

In addition to that time I will spend 4-5 months in other Asian countries"

 

So then why do I need a visa? Because I need a Thai tax-ID and I must be able to show to my banks in the EU that I don't just go to Thailand as a tourist.

 

Therefore I try to understand what would be the easiest way to accomplish these goals.

[ubonjoe]

33 minutes ago, Barley said:

If I understand you correctly, I need to be 11 months straight in the Kingdom, to apply in the last 30 days of the permitted 12 months stay for a retirement extension.

You would not need to stay in the country for 11 months. You only need to here long enough to apply for the extension of stay based upon retirement and then get a multiple re-entry permit for your trips back to here.

If you got the OA visa you can get almost 2 years of total stay from it as has been explained already. You would not need to apply for the extension until the last 30 days of the last 12 month entry from it.

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, Barley said:

If I understand you correctly, I need to be 11 months straight in the Kingdom, to apply in the last 30 days of the permitted 12 months stay for a retirement extension.

No - not 11 mo straight - just need to be here for a few days during the last 30-days of a permitted-stay from a Non-Immigrant entry, which the Non-OA will give you each time you use it. 

 

You could apply for your 1-year extension approximately 11 mo after you first get your Non-OA Visa and enter Thailand.  Or, you could do as suggested and leave/return just before the Visa (sticker) expires, and get another 1-year permitted-stay, then apply for a 1-year extension 11 months after that.

 

In most cases, you apply for your Retirement-Based "extension of stay" on one day, and get your passport back with the extension the next day.

[ubonjoe]

15 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

In most cases, you apply for your Retirement-Based "extension of stay" on one day, and get your passport back with the extension the next day.

That is only correct for the Jomtien and Phuket immigration offices as far as I know. All others do it on the same day you apply for the extension.

[onera1961]

19 hours ago, Barley said:

Why? Because since I am moving residency to Thailand I will formally give up residency in Europe so that I will not be able to obtain another certificate of no criminal record once I do that since I then have no more residency in Europe.

Not sure what do you mean by give up residency and tax consequences in your country as you mentioned.

[Barley]

Okay, let me explain:

 

To get this non O-A visa, I need to provide a clean bill of health (meaning no convictions) from the local police station of the city of my residence.

 

I can do that for my first visa application.

 

Since one of my goals of my gaining residency in Thailand is also tax savings, I will need to formally give up or revoke my residency in Europe to exit their tax system so that I can have tax savings, because as a retired foreign resident of Thailand, the Kingdom does not tax me on my worldwide investment income but only on my local Thai income (which I don't have).

 

Having given up residency in Europe for this purpose, when it is time for my second visa after a year or two, I will not be able to go to the police any more and get this "no conviction certification" from them, because I am not registered in Europe any longer, therefore I won't be able to get the second visa after the first one expired.

 

Was I able to explain the issue in an understandable way?

 

 

[LomSak27]

10 hours ago, Barley said:

Was I able to explain the issue in an understandable way?

No

You seem to have two issues;

 1) Obtaining a retirement visa from Thailand has been answered in detail above.

2)  What your tax, residency and citizenship requirements/obligations are, when living in another country, from the country you hold a passport, is something you will need to get information on. NOT form this forum but from sources in the country you hold a passport from. Revoking your citizenship sounds like an adventure, be sure and tell us how it goes.

Good Luck

[ubonjoe]

10 hours ago, Barley said:

I will not be able to go to the police any more and get this "no conviction certification" from them, because I am not registered in Europe any longer, therefore I won't be able to get the second visa after the first one expired.

I think you are assuming that incorrectly. Not sure about your home country but in most I am aware of you do not need to be a current resident of the country to get one.

For my home country I could apply for one from here in Thailand and get it.

As said before you do not really need to get a 2nd OA visa since you can apply for a one year extension of stay at immigration here during the last 30 days of any of the 12 month entries from  the OAvisa.

[JackThompson]

20 minutes ago, LomSak27 said:

Revoking your citizenship sounds like an adventure, be sure and tell us how it goes.

He's not revoking citizenship - just residency.  Only citizens of totalitarian nations like the USA and China have to revoke their "citizenship" to avoid being taxed by a country where they do not live.

 

10 hours ago, Barley said:

Having given up residency in Europe for this purpose, when it is time for my second visa after a year or two, I will not be able to go to the police any more and get this "no conviction certification" from them, because I am not registered in Europe any longer, therefore I won't be able to get the second visa after the first one expired.

 

During the 2nd year, on the last "permission of stay" you received from your Non-OA just before the "enter before" date has passed, the Visa (sticker) will expire.  As you intend to travel, to keep this "permission of stay" active during that 2nd year, you will need to get a "re-entry permit." 

 

All the re-entry permit does, is preserve an existing "permission of stay" date-stamp.  If you leave without one, you have to start the process over, again.

 

You could return 1 mo before that "permission of stay" stamp-date, entering using your "re-entry permit," and apply for the 1-year "extension of stay" at that time.  You will not need the police-report or medical for the 1-year "extension of stay" application.

[Barley]

@JackThompson
Thank you very much for your clear explanations. This was an important point I did not know before.

"He's not revoking citizenship - just residency"

>Correct.

"As said before you do not really need to get a 2nd OA visa since you can apply for a one year extension of stay at immigration here during the last 30 days of any of the 12 month entries from  the OAvisa."

Maybe I misunderstood, but from the comments here I assume that after the two years are over, I have to get a new visa.

So it is this case I was referring to.

[ubonjoe]

57 minutes ago, Barley said:

Maybe I misunderstood, but from the comments here I assume that after the two years are over, I have to get a new visa.

You do not need to get new visa to apply for an extension of stay here. You can apply for the extension at immigration during the last 30 days of any of the the 12 month entries from the OA visa.

[JackThompson]

Remember:

 - "Visa" = "sticker in passport from a Thai Consulate abroad"
 - "Extension of Stay" = "Permitted Stay" date-stamp given after applying for this at an Immigration Office (in Thailand)

 

As long as you keep re-applying for an "Extension of Stay" every year - doing so in the last 30 days the current one is valid - and you keep the "Permitted Stay" of each  "Extension of Stay" "alive" when traveling with re-entry permits, you will never need another "Visa" after your first one.

[Kopitiam]

On 3/16/2018 at 10:22 PM, Barley said:

The O-A visa would be useful for me if I can get the retirement 1 yr visa in Thailand towards the end of its validity (let's say in the last 120 days).

 

Why? Because since I am moving residency to Thailand I will formally give up residency in Europe so that I will not be able to obtain another certificate of no criminal record once I do that since I then have no more residency in Europe.

 

I remember vaguely reading in this forum, that the O-A visa also has some disadvantages, but I don't remember the exact ones any more.

 

As opposed to most queries on this forum which deal with staying as long as possible in Thailand, I really only need/want to stay for like twice a year for a month each, since my focus is more on getting residency for tax reasons, if that would be possible.

 

In addition to that time I will spend 4-5 months in other Asian countries.

 

 

 

 

Obtaining a "retirement extension of stay" does not mean you are moving your residency to Thailand.  Furthermore, if you are on a "retirement extension of stay" you are not allowed to work in Thailand.  So on what ground will the Thai tax authority issues you a Tax ID?

[Barley]

That's a good question.

 

From what I have heard, you need to have a small income transaction, like renting out your flat, your car, your computer, taxable investment income from inside the country, or something like that which has not to do with employment (being obviously out of the question).

 

Usually any income tax authority, when approached with "Hey, I want to pay taxes and in order to file a return, I will need a tax ID!" happily issues it, because that's there raison d'etre.

 

 

[ubonjoe]

20 minutes ago, Kopitiam said:

So on what ground will the Thai tax authority issues you a Tax ID?

You don't have to be working to get a tax ID. Most revenued offices will issue one without a question asked.

Many people get them to get a refund for taxes deducted for interest earned from funds in a bank account.