Alleged “Smart” Cards

[bluesofa]

I had a ATM/debit card from Siam Commercial Bank (HIP card) with which I used for pay for my shopping in Big C for eight or nine years.

It expired and I was issued with a new “Smart Prompt Card” with a chip in it. I asked for it to be enabled to use for internet purchases, which after a bit of initial hassle worked.

 

Then I went shopping in Big C and tried to use it to pay for my food shopping. The cashier swiped it in the machine, then asked me to put my pin number in the keypad nearby. Did that, but was told the system wouldn’t accept the new style cards as the Big C system had not yet been upgraded.

Luckily my wife had enough cash with her to pay.

 

Later I phoned SCB Call Centre. They told me I could definitely “100 percent” use my Chip & Pin card in Big C, but the staff didn’t yet understand how to use the equipment!

 

A week later I went to Big C again. First of all I asked at the customer service desk if I could use my card, and showed it to them. Initially, two of them said “No”. When I queried it they got a supervisor to come down. She said I could probably use it. I told her that SCB had said to me that I could “use it in Big C 100 percent”.

 

When I came to pay, it was rejected again. Got the supervisor over, we both walked together the twenty metres into SCB next to Big C. The staff in SCB had absolutely no idea or understanding about any of the technology. They just listened to the supervisor and myself explaining what happened, without offering any advice at all.

The supervisor suggested I complain to Big C, as it was their system which has not yet been upgraded to accept the Chip & Pin cards.

 

Got home and called SCB again. They told me that next time I should call SCB when I came to pay the cashier, then give her my phone and they would explain to her what to do, to get it to work.

So I have to keep paying and using my phone to try and get Big C staff to learn how to use the technology. Crazy!

I asked how long before all retailers would be “upgraded”. They didn’t know and said it was The Bank of Thailand that was organising it.

 

Phoned Big C. At the moment I’m waiting for them to call me back “tomorrow” about this.

 

[Pib]

Many different payment systems/cards/methods.....more every day....various banks and companies all pushing their particular system/card and saying how good it is, how widely accepted it is, etc.  Now the "how widely accepted part" needs to be taken with a BIG grain of salt because it may not be widely accepted at all.   

 

Another example that quickly comes to mind is the Bangkok Bank dual logo UnionPay and Thai Payment Network (TPN) debit card (a joint venture of UnionPay and Bangkok Bank)...most people probably refer to it as just the Bangkok Bank UnionPay debit card which replaced their Visa debit card.   Now Bangkok Bank advertises how widely accepted the card is, but go try to use it in a Big C, Lotus, most any merchant and they simply don't accept it. 

 

Most likely reason in order to accept it requires them to sign-up for service with the UnionPay/TPN network (that costs the merchant money) plus UnionPay cards require use of a PIN for purchases and most Thai merchants simply don't want to use PIN based purchases....they prefer signature based purchases or small ticket purchases (less than approx Bt 700 to1500) which does not require a signature or PIN.   The merchants prefer to simply stick with Visa and Mastercard which are gladly and truly accepted practically everywhere.

 

 

[bluesofa]

Why do you say that most Thai merchants want a signature rather than the pin number system?

 

My debit card is Mastercard, which itself is obviously widely accepted, but it's this new Chip & Pin technology (for Thailand) that is at the moment causing problems.

I personally see it as a much safer system than the signature, as if you lose your card it's no good if you don't have the pin number.

 

Regarding the signature, I always signed my name as Enid Blyton (a UK children's author), simply because I could. I once signed as Rumpelstiltskin. No one ever checked the signature on my card against the voucher.

 

My wife once left her debit card in the ATM machine, someone found it and as they needed no pin, went (by coincidence) into Big C and spent 3,000 Baht with it.

The stupid woman who used it also used her Big C loyalty card at the same time. She was caught afterwards purely down to that greedy mistake.

 

[Pib]

4 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

Why do you say that most Thai merchants want a signature rather than the pin number system?

 

Thai merchants prefer signature based over PIN based simply because it provides a more streamlined-faster checkout/payment, less transaction hardware requirements, and it still provides them with good security.   Ditto for many other countries to include countries like the U.S....and yes, the great, great majority of U.S. cards have now transitioned to chip based cards and are setup for signature or PIN purchase...which ever the merchant prefers.

 

I live in Bangkok....buy stuff in stores such at Lotus, Big C, Foodland, Tops, HomePro, etc...etc...etc almost daily and I pay with one of my credit cards whenever possible.  While standing in those checkout lines and watching thousands of Thais and farangs (but 95% Thai) pay with their credit/debit cards over the last 10 years I can count on one hand...probably just two fingers the number of times I've seen someone have to enter a PIN to complete the purchase.  I have never-ever had to enter a PIN to complete a purchase.   Instead they only sign a Receipt for Signature. 

 

And over the last year or so increasing for small ticket purchases of less than Bt700 to Bt1500 no signature or PIN is required at some merchants like Lotus, Foodland, Tops, etc.....basically, even getting a signature is not needed (or wanted).  You card is stuck in the POS machines, a receipt if immediately spit out for your records, they hand you your card back with receipt....you are done....no PIN or signature required.   Right now it appears some merchants use below Bt700 for Visa and below Bt1500 for Mastercard...and a few use below Bt1500 for Visa or Mastercard.   

 

Except for many European-based and and a few other countries issued cards, at this point in time most credit/debit cards issued now days allow signature or PIN based purchases, whichever the merchant desires.    But if your bank issued card only allows PIN-based purchases many Thai merchants will not process the transaction....they may say your card is not working but what is happening is a PIN entry requirement is appearing on the POS machine, when the checkout clerk sees that they have been instructed by management to not accept the transaction....or the merchant already has the POS machine setup not to accept PIN based payment....just return an error....then the checkout clerk just looks at your with puppy dog eyes saying the card don't work.

 

And yes, a credit/debit card is not validated against any ID anymore....at least not in Thailand.  You lose your card, some bad guy picks it up (or a family member/friend), the bad guy can go to a store and use it just like it's cash.   But in the big scheme of things such fraudulent transactions are a very, very low percentage of the hundreds of millions of card transactions per day and its not enough to override the desire to simply use no signature or signature only transactions compared to PIN based transactions since PIN based transaction required additional hardware/software and many people simply can't remember their PIN especially when they have multiple PINs for multiple cards....but everyone can scribble out a real or fake signature....or just not need to sign anything for a small ticket purchases.  Ease of use still overrides security in our payment systems.

 

 

 

 

[bluesofa]

I was under the impression that it is the Bank of Thailand who are making all banks change over to Chip & Pin.

IIRC I read that eventually all Thai banks will issue only the Chip & Pin cards. However, I am willing to be corrected on that. My new card has a six-digit pin for both purchases and ATM use.

 

You say that over the past ten years you’ve seen very few customers using their pin to complete a transaction. I can only recall seeing the keypad for pin verification having appeared with the last couple of years. As Big C have them installed, they are obviously going to make use of them.

The way I see it, it’s just this painful transition period that seems to be causing problems.

 

I wasn’t aware of the fact the merchant can chose to accept either pin or signature verification, coming from the UK I don’t think they have that choice, they see pin as a more secure verification.

 

This “small ticket purchase”. Yes, I have occasionally in the past not been required to sign the voucher. I think that is encouraging lower security (despite the fact they never check the signature!)

 

I know that in the UK they now have “contactless payments” which basically works by reading your card when you’re within (I think) 5cm of the machine. It is only used for small payments from what I’ve seen. It uses a technology called NFC – Near Field Communications.

However, that’s open to abuse, as I read about an ethical hacker who built a unit connected to his laptop and managed to read the card details of people he walked close to.

UK banks now I think automatically issue these ‘contactless’ cards built in to your debit/credit card. There have been reports I’ve read where customers have insisted the bank take back their card and issue them one without the contactless payment option.

 

Big C just called back.

They apologised again, and said they are in the hands of the company responsible for carrying out the ‘upgrade’. Until that happens they say they can’t process Chip & Pin cards. They (same as SCB) have no idea when this will be completed.

However, Big C are adamant they cannot process the cards at present, despite what SCB say. All I know is Big C use KBank terminals.

 

[Pib]

1 hour ago, bluesofa said:

I was under the impression that it is the Bank of Thailand who are making all banks change over to Chip & Pin.

IIRC I read that eventually all Thai banks will issue only the Chip & Pin cards. However, I am willing to be corrected on that. My new card has a six-digit pin for both purchases and ATM use.

 

Bank of Thailand is requiring bank to switch to chipped cards.   Whether the card-issuing bank requires a PIN or not (i.e., signature not allowed....must be PIN) is up to the bank.   Now UnionPay cards "do" require a PIN for a purchase.

https://www.bot.or.th/Thai/PressandSpeeches/Press/News2559/n2259e.pdf

 

The card-issuing bank/company can code their debit/credit cards to either work in Chip & PIN and/or Chip & Signature mode.   Generally for Thai bank issued cards and many other countries such as the U.S.,  excluding UnionPay cards, the cards will work in either mode (PIN or Signature)---which ever mode the merchant wants to use.   

 

   

[bluesofa]

Thanks for posting the BOT link. I had a look on their website earlier, but didn't find that specific page.

The way I read it, it looks like it will be the end of 2019 when the changeover is completed. I really hope it is long before the end of next year before all merchants are upgraded.

 

I have already emailed BOT and asked them if they can provide a date when all merchants systems will be upgraded so I can use my card. (I have an acknowledgement from them that they have forwarded my email to the relevant person.)

I also made a comment that the card does not seem like a "smart" card to me, as I can only use it in an ATM at present.

When I receive a reply I'll post the details.

 

edit: Just spoken to Tesco Lotus customer services. They say they don't accept payment using the (not-so)Smart card either.

 

[Pib]

Specifically what SCB chipped card do you have that is not being supported.   Is it just a regular chipped card or some contactless card.  Got a link to the SCB webpage showing your card?   

 

You said earlier it's a Mastercard with chip so I don't understand why you are having any problems.   The wife and I use Visa and Mastercard chipped cards here in Thailand almost daily....no problem.

 

Or are you saying you just don't want to use it because a PIN is not being required; only signature being required.

 

[bluesofa]

I see this article is dated February 2017, saying the Prompt Card will be launched when they have enough machines:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/business/EconomyAndTourism/30305827

 

I was issued my card in February 2018. It isn’t a contactless card, I think that technology is probably too new for here.

It is definitely nothing to do with the “Prompt Pay” system here.

 

I can’t find any reference to it on the SCB website in English and the images are too small to be clear, but googling produced this image, the same as my card:

 

 

Which Thai bank issued your chipped cards, as you don’t have any problems?

 

Unless of course they have installed machines already in Bangkok. Being in Udon Thani perhaps we’re behind the times?

However, when I phoned Tesco Lotus to ask if I could use it, no one asked me where I was located even though they said they definitely don’t accept them.

 

edit:

I would use it at the moment by any option offered. Everyone has said a flat "No", nothing to do with pin/signature option.

In fact it was SCB call centre who said as a work-around I could use the signature option, but as I said earlier Big C aren't interested, and it would cost me a lot of phone calls to get their cashier to talk to SCB - if Big C let them that is.

[Pib]

OK, it's a dual logo card....PromptPay and Mastercard.   But use of the card in Thailand for purchases apparently the transaction has to be processed on the PromptPay network vs the Mastercard network...and most merchants do not support the PromptPay network yet.  Outside of Thailand the Mastercard network would be used.  Kinda like how most do not support the Thai Payment Network/UnionPay Bangkok Bank debit card for purchases yet since the merchants just use the Visa/Mastercard network.    Got nothing to do with it being a chip or non-chipped card; has everything to do with which network the transaction must be accomplished on.

 

While I use my U.S. Visa and Mastercard chipped credit cards for 95% of my purchases in Thailand (did a couple of such purchases just today) occasionally I do use my Bangkok Bank Visa  chipped debit card and Krungsri Bank Visa chipped debit card for purchases just to ensure they work for purchases---and they work fine for purchases.   

[bluesofa]

In that case it must be as Big C say - they are waiting for their system to be upgraded here in Udon.

As you're in Bangkok and it works fine, I'm just interested now:

When you use your Thai bank debit cards, is that via pin or signature verification?

Is your card swiped, or put in a machine that reads the chip?

Have you by chance used them in Big C or Tesco Lotus?

 

 

[Pib]

6 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

In that case it must be as Big C say - they are waiting for their system to be upgraded here in Udon.

As you're in Bangkok and it works fine, I'm just interested now:

When you use your Thai bank debit cards, is that via pin or signature verification?

Is your card swiped, or put in a machine that reads the chip?

Have you by chance used them in Big C or Tesco Lotus?

 

 

When I use my Thai debit cards for a purchase it is signature verification.   Card is inserted to read the chip.   Yes, I've used them in Big C and Tesco.

 

When your Big C in Udorn say they are awaiting to be upgraded they may be saying they are waiting for special EDC (a.k.a., Point of Service) machines to process PromtPay type cards. 

 

I'm sure your Big C, Lotus, etc, in the Udorn area accept standard chipped cards.  Just go watch some people checkout I'm sure you'll see many paying with their credit/debit cards.   

 

[bluesofa]

OK, thanks for the details.

 

Being a customer for years, I know exactly what there is in Big C Udon at the moment - only one KBank magnetic strip swipe machine, per cashier.

It's the card machine that reads the chip they're waiting for.

 

I don't go to Tesco Lotus often, but will do now, to find out.

 

[Pib]

12 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

OK, thanks for the details.

 

Being a customer for years, I know exactly what there is in Big C Udon at the moment - only one KBank magnetic strip swipe machine, per cashier.

It's the card that reads the chip they're waiting for.

 

I don't go to Tesco Lotus often, but will do now, to find out.

 

It's typical for only one POS machine to be in use at a cashier checkout like Big C.   And that POS machine will be hooked to what "local bank" the merchant has a contact with to process card transactions and interface with the Visa/Mastercard/etc networks.  Guess that Big C (or maybe all Big C) use Kbank.  Whatever bank they use will appear on the top or bottom of the receipt you get. 

 

I would really, really be surprised if the Udorn Big C can only accept magnetic strip card.   POS machines now days can accept chipped and/or magnetic strip cards...if there is a little slot in the front of the machine it can accept chipped cards...and for magnetic strip cards that swipe slot is on the side...usually the right side of the machine.  However, the POS machines only interface with whatever network they are designed to interface with/whatever networks the local bank interfaces with.   

 

You sure you have never seen a person with a chipped card pay at your Big C?   I've been in two different Big C's in Bangkok area since Sunday, made chipped credit card purchases at both.

 

However, a separate POS machine is needed to interface with "certain networks" because another local bank may be the one that interfaces with that network.

 

 

[Pib]

One more thing.  I'm guessing your SCB card has both a chip and magnetic strip versus a chip only.  If so, the magnetic strip should still be usable for purchases "unless" the strip also requires the PromptPay network vs the Mastercard/Visa network.

 

Magnetic strip cards still work in Thailand as long as the card-issuing bank has the magnetic strip activated also for purchases and/or ATM withdrawals...it's just Thailand card-issuers have to around 2019 per Visa/Mastercard policy and Bank of Thailand directive to complete the transition to chipped cards.

[bluesofa]

It is definitely the case that they still have the same magnetic strip swipe machine as they have had for a few years. It does not have a slot for chipped cards.

 

Call me boring, but my background was in electronics and telecoms. Among other things,  I used to repair POS machines and connect them into the PSTN (public switched telephone network), so I still have a keen interest in observing this equipment.

 

As I said, the only new addition in the last year has been a keypad for customer use, per checkout. I have wondered if it was supposed to integrate with the swipe machine.

When the cashier swiped the magnetic strip on the back on my Chip & Pin card, I was asked to enter my pin via that keypad, but it still didn't work.

When I had the old HIP card, that was just a signature that was required, nothing more.

 

[Pib]

Gosh, the Udorn Big C is definitely behind the times.   Quite a few merchants here in Bangkok/surrounding provinces where I do my shopping also have keypads although their POS machines are always very close to the cash register with such a short connection cable it can't be moved more than a few inches.   Teh keypads normally get in the way as they are located on the ledge where you sign the receipt. 

 

As mentioned earlier I can count on one hand or probably two fingers the times I'm seen a person have to enter a PIN number to complete a purchase here in Thaialnd...and I can't remember if they did that by going behind the counter to enter the PIN or use a keypad.   Yea, no shortage of keypads "that are not being used right now."

 

Anyway, hope you are back to being able to use your card soonest.  Cheers. 

[bluesofa]

Just a minor update on the saga:

I said in a previous post that I'd called Tesco Lotus customer service who told me they didn't accept the Smart card.

 

Yesterday I went into a branch in Udon, did some shopping and paid with my SCB Smart card.

The cashier put the card in a machine which read the chip (not the magnetic strip). It was verified by signature.

 

It looks like there is a god after all!

 

[Ks45672]

On 23/03/2018 at 8:23 AM, bluesofa said:

Just a minor update on the saga:

I said in a previous post that I'd called Tesco Lotus customer service who told me they didn't accept the Smart card.

 

Yesterday I went into a branch in Udon, did some shopping and paid with my SCB Smart card.

The cashier put the card in a machine which read the chip (not the magnetic strip). It was verified by signature.

 

It looks like there is a god after all!

 

Personally, I would refuse to upgrade to anything new for several years to give  the merchants  and atms a chance to catch up 

 

My cards are mostly visa  and mastercard credit and debit and valid until about 2021ish

 

Even then Ill be refusing to move into Union pay or anything else ..... 

 

 

[bluesofa]

56 minutes ago, Ks45672 said:

Personally, I would refuse to upgrade to anything new for several years to give  the merchants  and atms a chance to catch up 

 

My cards are mostly visa  and mastercard credit and debit and valid until about 2021ish

 

Even then Ill be refusing to move into Union pay or anything else ..... 

 

I take your point and I'd like to agree with you. You're lucky that your cards have a longer validity.

 

Unfortunately for me it wasn't an option to 'refuse' as my old card had expired, and SCB had changed over already and stopped issuing the magnetic strip only version of the same Mastercard, for the Chip & Pin and magnetic strip combined card.

Nothing to do with a different card (Union Pay) or an individual bank, but the Bank of Thailand's regulation on this.

 

[bluesofa]

Despite Big C not being proactive in sorting out this problem because, "they are waiting for an upgrade to be able to accept Smart cards", I have been pushing it, in order to be able to use my card more.

 

I contacted the Bank of Thailand, as they are the body making all the banks change to the chip & pin smart cards.

Eventually I did get a response and was asked which Big C branch wouldn't accept my card.

I told them which branch in Udon it was.

They replied saying they had contacted Big C's bank (Kasikorn) to get them to upgrade the branch. BOT said the toughest part of changing to the smart cards is upgrading all EDC terminals nationwide.